After the Dalai Lama

[Helena]

I remember seeing a thangka posted in this website featuring the Guru Rinpoche and Dorje Shugden together.

If all schools did practice Dorje Shugden and with the above thangka, it may include the Nyingmas as well - then, it would not be such a big surprise to later find that all schools will be practising Dorje Shugden again.

[vajrastorm]

Thank you, TK, for starting this thread of discussion. After the Dalai Lama passes on, there may be no successor. In an interview some time ago, when HH was asked about his successor, he had responded by saying that the Dalai Lama was a man-made institution. Hence, it can come to an end. It need not be continued.

When the Dalai Lama is no more and the whole of the rich Tibetan language, culture and tradition eventually fades away, what remains behind will only be Tibetan Buddhism as is being practiced and spread throughout the rest of the world. A most powerful catalyst for the growth of this Dharma is Dharmapala Dorje Shugden. This Protector of the precious lineage teachings of Je Tsongkhapa which are so vital for the people of this degenerate age, has , not surprisingly been promoted rather vigorously through the ‘skillful’ methods of the Dalai Lama.

Yes, now is the time to step up the promotion of Dorje Shugden’s practice, lineage, Lamas , centers, nature and benefits, and to educate the new Dharma practitioners of this age on this great Protector. As Dharma grows and spreads exponentially through the swift and powerful Protector’s peaceful, increasing, powerful and wrathful activities, more and more people will want to know about Him and do His practice to aid them in their Dharma growth. This forum will see exciting times ahead! 

[Mana]

China has already announced to the world that any reincarnation in the Tibetan lama system needs aproval from the Chinese government, in other words, we can be certain that China will choose their own 15th Dalai Lama.

As for the Tibetans in exile, if there is to be a 15th Dalai Lama, it will take years and decades before his has some influence.

In the world stage, the 15th Dalai Lama will never gain the same recognition, respect and international standing as the current Dalai Lama, even if he is to achieve the same level as the current Dalai Lama, it will take him at least 40-50 years, because 99.9% of the world do not believe in reincarnation, therefore the 15th Dalai Lama will have to prove himself to the world, thus age and maturity play a strong part, simply that nobody will listen to a boy/young man, so, 40-50 years is surely needed.

By then, the voice against Dorje Shugden from the 14th Dalai Lama will fade, and the voice, if any, from the 15th Dalai Lama in this matter will be too insignificant, not among Tibetans in exile, not in the rest of the world, not in China (maybe the China's 15th Dalai Lama will even promote Dorje Shugden, in line with the current China government's policy!)

Dorje Shugden practice by then will already be fluorishing in monasteries with the new lineage - the pure Gelugpa with Dorje Shugden lineage, it will be a RENAISSANCE!

[Helena]

After the Dalai Lama = The Time of Dorje Shugden

Only Dorje Shugden can bring about the Renaissance that you so rightly wrote about.

This gives me great hope and joy.

Thank you for this, Mana.

[WisdomBeing]

Just read this article below - the Dalai Lama is still declaring that he will see Tibet gain independence in his lifetime but he adds that it will be a win-win situation and that he jokingly says that he also wants to join the Chinese Communist party. A very complicated situation indeed... I don't think many Tibetans believe him anymore regarding independence since it's been too long that the Dalai Lama has said that independence will come and it hasn't...


http://www.dalailama.com/news/post/650-i-describe-indians-as-guru-we-chelas-learn-from-you-dalai-lama

I describe Indians as guru, we chelas learn from you: Dalai Lama

February 19th 2011

Mumbai, Maharashtra, India, 19 February 2011 (By Hemali Chhapia, TNN) - For a snow-shrouded Tibet, here's something that will thaw its heart.

"Yes, I will see a free Tibet in my lifetime. I am confident about that. More and more Chinese are supporting the Tibetan cause than ever before," the 14th  Dalai Lama, who was in the city on Friday, told TOI.

The Nobel laureate spoke at the Gothic Cowasjee Jehangir Convocation Hall of the University of Mumbai as sun rays streamed in through the stained glass panel above. Before he started his talks, the university vice-chancellor, Rajan Welukar, honoured him with a garland that came all the way from Gujarat. More importantly, the environmentally friendly garland of cotton fibre was used by Mahatma Gandhi.

The University wanted to have the Dalai Lama here on October 2 to inaugurate a student-driven initiative to work for social causes.

After a lecture on "Ancient Wisdom and Modern Thoughts" and a discourse with students, the Dalai Lama had a conversation with TOI about the land that is long awaiting freedom. With more and more Chinese championing the cause of Tibetans, the movement will usher in the final chapter of the land's long struggle that will end soon, he said. "And so, it is my belief that it will not be a loss for one and triumph for another. It will be a victory for all." He also had a joke about a changed China: "I told the Chinese authorities that I want to join Chinese Communist Party."

"Now in China, genuine socialism is no longer there; a communist party without communist ideology. Capitalist communism: this is new. I heard that the life of some Indian communists and a few leaders of the Indian communist party is more bourgeois than socialist."

Praising India, he said it didn't need to look out for answers. "Indian civilization, when compared to the western and Chinese civilizations, is much more sophisticated. It is the world's treasure." He repeatedly described himself as a chela of Indian tradition. "I describe Indians as the guru, we (Tibetans) are chelas of Indian guru," he said. "Essentially we learn from you."

But as an honest friend, he said it was essential to rid all the systems of some evils: "Caste, dowry, discrimination, these may be a part of your tradition but they are outdated, and must change. The youth must change some of these! From your chela, this is constructive criticism. Sometimes, you are a little bit lazy. You must be more hard-working; work with full self-confidence."

DEEPER THOUGHTS:

Modern education system does not pay attention to wholeheartedness. Teaching ethics without touching the religious space is important
Life based on material wealth with no roots in affection is a delusion

Secularism does not mean disrespect of religion, but equal respect for all religions

Business people also come from society, we need a change at the fundamental level, and now in the west, some educationists are really questioning the educational system

Technology provides physical comfort and spiritual development mental comfort

The real change in India needs to happen in its rural areas, in its old villages

The desire for peace is very strong. People proudly joined when the World Wars broke out. That situation has changed. Before the Iraq crisis, think of how many people came out against using force. It's a sign of change: non-violence.

[pgdharma]

I agree with TK that Tibet will never gain independence or autonomy.

With due respect, after HH Dalai Lama passes on and through time, the controversy will just fade away.

HH Dalai Lama has created such a big controversy that Dorje Shugden is so well known.  Now more and more people are learning about Dorje Shugden from reliable website and understand the benefits of Dorje Shugden practice. Could it be HH plan to create the cause for Dorje Shugden practice to grow after he passes on? I am not sure, but time will tell.

In this degenerate times, we need Dorje Shugden to help preserve the Dharma. So as advised by TK, let us promote Dorje Shugden and the Dharma. Now is the time to make Tibetan Buddhism and Dorje Shugden  practice grow big everywhere in the world! How? By educating the new practitioners on Dorje Shugden’s practice and its benefits, posting up reliable information on the website to share with others.

[vajrastorm]

Despite the recent appointment of a new Kalon Tripa, Lobsang Sangay, to head the TGIE, the cause and struggle for  freedom of Tibet from Chinese rule does not seem likely to succeed. The new Kalon Tripa has announced that he will continue the policy of peaceful negotiations with the Chinese government for autonomy for Tibet. However, if the Chinese have refused to negotiate with the Dalai Lama, it is hard to imagine that the new Kalon Tripa, the new political leader of Tibet(in exile) will succeed with them. This shows that TK is correct in asserting that Tibet is unlikely to become an independent state or country in the near and distant future.

So we now have to recognize and accept the reality of Tibetan Buddhism  as being practiced outside of Tibet by people in the rest of the world, as well as the reality of the arising of a new lineage of Tibetan Buddhism. Today, as far as we can see, the force behind the spread of Tibetan Buddhism outside of Tibet is the current Dalai Lama. What happens to Tibetan Buddhism when the Dalai Lama passes on?

 Even if a new incarnate Dalai Lama were to be recognized( whether it be the one dictated by China as the successor or even  the successor  recognized and legitimized  via the traditional oracle system and according to the conditions that the present Dalai Lama is going to put in place ) as the Fifteenth Dalai Lama, as Mana says, this young successor will need at least 40-50 years before he can even achieve the stature and international renown of the 14th Dalai Lama. So what will happen to the future of Tibetan Buddhism in this long interim period?

Fortunately, we have Dorje Shugden, the Protector of this degenerate age, whose time is now!

Dorje Shugden 's practice is spreading far and wide, despite the ban on his practice imposed by the Dalai Lama. True earnest practitioners of Dharma, who believe in Dorje Shugden as the Dharma Protector of this age , have and must continue to engage in his practice and spread the lineage of Je Tsongkapa's teachings, so very necessary for the people of this degenerate age.

When the Dalai Lama is no more, the voice against the practice of Dorje Shugden will be silenced. There will then be no holds barred in the spread of the pure complete Dharma teachings of Je Tsongkapa's and the Gelug lineage, and the practice of this lineage's Protector, Dorje Shugden.
 
But we must start now to educate people and to promote Dorje Shugden through this website and this forum. Instead of bashing anti-Shugdenists, we should talk about the Dorje Shugen practice and its benefits. We should focus on the lineage, the Lamas, the centers and monasteries practicing Dorje Shugden. Let us carry everyone on this irrepressible great wave of Dharma growth and spread and be ever ready to  hail the dawn, which will come soon, of the Renaissance(as described by Mana)of a new Tibetan Buddhism lineage - a combined force of the pure Gelug Lineage with the Dorje Shugden Lineage!

[Klein]

Promoting Dorje Shugden's practice now is very important. I understand wny there are pockets of people around the world coming up with new ideas such as giving away brochures, pendants, comic books and so on. Dfferent ideas attract different mind sets.

The focus is creating lots of awareness and making info regarding Dorje Shugden readily available in order to eradicate all false accusations. When people begin to experience the benefits of Dorje Shugden's blessings, they will become more convincing spokespersons. This will create many ripple effects.

[ilikeshugden]

After the Dalai Lama, I believe that the ban will definitely be lifted after a short while. I believe that Tibetan Buddhism will spread far and wide because of the ban lifting. Thank you, TK, for making this article. I think that  Tibetan Buddhism is not limited to Tibetans anymore. In fact, Tibetan Buddhism seems to be able to touch more non-Tibetans. Because of Dorje Shugden's practice, millions, if not billions, will benefit.

Anyways, I think that the Tibetan government will not last long. No offense but I think it will really go bye-bye after this Dalai Lama.

[icy]

Tibet will never get autonomy. Tibet will never gain independence. Only Dorje Shugden can give them a glimmer of hope toward preservation of Buddha Dharma in Tibet itself.

After this Dalai Lama passes, all the Tibetans in Tibet will become Chinese. Their voices for independence will fade. All the Tibetans in India who have money will make a scramble to countries outside of India. The Tibetans living abroad and outside of Tibet will lose their language, culture and become mixed into the mainstream culture of their adopted country like every other immigrant. The Tibetans in India will just worry about survival.

Tibetan Buddhism will ironically truly exist outside of most Tibetans. Dorje Shugden will grow in reputation and not any lama in the future will have the power to speak against him. The Dalai Lama did this. Watch as the 'show' unfolds.

So let's talk about everything related to Dorje Shugden's practice, lineage, lamas, centres, nature and benefits on this forum to start the education of the new wave of dharma practitioners who will have heard of Dorje Shugden and want to know more. 

Homage to Dorje Shugden who although intangible to the untrained perciever arising from Dharmakaya has become tangible by someone in rupakaya named Dalai Lama. It will be exciting times ahead. So let's keep working hard here to make it happen.

TK

Thank you TK you always have good foresight and I believe what you said.  Yes! Let us focus on Dorje Shugden and make Dorje Shugden a big hit and has a huge fanfare in the world.  Life is worthless without being useful to Dorje Shugden.

[Ensapa]

what i dont exactly understand is, it is very clear that Dorje Shugden does not belong to just the Gelugs, but to Buddhism in general and his practice has been found in all 4 traditions. He helped to perserve those traditions when propitiated, and then conveniently forgotten in place of more "powerful" protectors. When the Gelugs adopted him and Gelug got big and powerful, they got jealous and went against their old ally citing flimsy reasons to cover their jealousy.

In time they will rediscover him in the form of Termas, but it would be a bit too late then.

[WisdomBeing]

Dear Ensapa

Are you saying that the other traditions became jealous of Dorje Shugden? I hadn't heard of that before although I had known of the acrimony towards Dorje Shugden by some Nyingmapas and that there were images of Guru Rinpoche stepping on Dorje Shugden. However i know that not all Nyingmapas were against Dorje Shugden and several high lamas of the Nyingma tradition, such as HH Penor Rinpoche, had been more than forthcoming in supporting monks who had been ostracised because of their sole 'crime' of being Dorje Shugden practitioners. I also read a story in the forum about the 16th Karmapa not being happy when he saw an image of Guru Rinpoche stepping on Dorje Shugden.

Are there other instances of jealousy of Dorje Shugden?

[Ensapa]

Dear Ensapa

Are you saying that the other traditions became jealous of Dorje Shugden? I hadn't heard of that before although I had known of the acrimony towards Dorje Shugden by some Nyingmapas and that there were images of Guru Rinpoche stepping on Dorje Shugden. However i know that not all Nyingmapas were against Dorje Shugden and several high lamas of the Nyingma tradition, such as HH Penor Rinpoche, had been more than forthcoming in supporting monks who had been ostracised because of their sole 'crime' of being Dorje Shugden practitioners. I also read a story in the forum about the 16th Karmapa not being happy when he saw an image of Guru Rinpoche stepping on Dorje Shugden.

Are there other instances of jealousy of Dorje Shugden?

The most evident of them would be they being against Dorje Shugden citing reasons like "sectarianism". A Nygima lama i have met a long time ago  told me "there are 2 Gelugs, one good and one bad. go for the good one" with obvious reference to this issue when i told him my affinity is with Gelug. But i am very happy to hear about how Penor Rinpoche and Karmapa showing their support  for Shugden. They have not forgotten their old friend.

This is a certain protection amulet from a certain nyigma master. Notice  how the "gyalpo" has a hat. they are normally not depicted this way. Why the hat? who is he made to resemble?

[Ensapa]

More proof from wikipedia:

Views of non-Gelugpa Tibetan Buddhists
Dorje Shugden has traditionally been regarded as a protector especially of the Gelugpa tradition. The other schools of Tibetan Buddhism have therefore usually not worshipped him or even, in the historical context of (political) rivalry, have seen him as a potential threat.[citation needed]
Sakya Trizin, head of the Sakya lineage of Tibetan Buddhism, notes that at one time followers of his school did make offerings to Shugden but that, in this context, Shugden was regarded as a worldly deity. He also mentions two Lamas of pre-occupation Tibet, Dorjechang Jamyang Khyentse Chokyi Lodro and Ngor Kangchen Dorjechang, who limited the practice in their monasteries,[102] confirming the existence of the practice within that tradition up to that time.
Palpung Tai Situ Rinpoche, one of the most important Lamas in the Karma Kagyu tradition has said that the practice of Shugden "causes fear." He adds the practice is considered to create obstacles to spiritual practice.[103]
While traditionally, the relationship between Shugden and the Nyingma is one of enmity, there is some evidence of latter day Nyingma[104] practitioners in Nepal having received and propitiated Dorje Shugden via a patriarchal rather than politico-institutional lineage. Mumford writes based on his anthropological studies in Nepal in the late 1970s:
Tibetans in Kathmandu regard Shugs-ldan as a guardian honored by those who adhere to the Gelug sect, while members of the Nyingma sect think of Shug-ldan as an enemy, sent against them by the rival sect. But in the villages these sectarian differences are not well understood. In Gyasumdo the lamas are Nyingmapa, yet most of them honor Shugs-ldan as a lineage guardian picked up in Tibet in the past by their patriline.[105]
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu claims that Shugden can cause devotees to become "nervous, confused and upset."[106] Minling Trichen Rinpoche, late head of the Nyingma tradition,[107] said that "Shugden is a ghost. We Nyingma practitioner do not follow him. We propagate only those protectors that were bound by Padmasambhava. Shugden came after Padmasambhava."[108]