Geshe Helmut Gassner an Interesting story and clarification.

[Mana]

That is my current axe; my agenda; to make people see that. (Or else prove me wrong by means of debate.)

This is the wrong attitude. Wrong or right, everyone may express  their thoughts without sarcasm, attacks and rudeness. No one needs to prove anyone wrong.

Mana

[WisdomBeing]

This is pure Dharma from a true Bodhisattva.... if HH Trijang Rinpoche was my lineage Guru - the Guru of my Guru - would I disregard what he says?

But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future."

- Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's advice in Music Delighting The Ocean Of Protectors:, 1967

[Lineageholder]

In other words, is this a discussion forum, or a forum for promoting some singular predetermined truth?

I'd like to know the answer to this question too.  Sometimes I'm suspicious of the 'groupthink' that is exhibited on this site.  I find it strange that so many people have the same view and there is no dissention or deviation from a particular view, especially the 'big picture'.  I do not find this 'harmony' to be a positive thing, perhaps it is a sign of a particular agenda or that people have stopped thinking for themselves.  I mean no offence by this, it's simply a call to examine our beliefs and to establish if they are derived from valid cognition or from something else.

I support Zhalmed Pawo's freedom of speech because I believe he is trying to stimulate genuine debate and critical examination of views.  We should never be afraid to question anything.

We live in a democracy, do we not?  I think this also applies to cyberspace, despite the best efforts of various governments to make it otherwise.

[Lineageholder]

This is pure Dharma from a true Bodhisattva.... if HH Trijang Rinpoche was my lineage Guru - the Guru of my Guru - would I disregard what he says?Music Delighting The Ocean Of Protectors:, 1967

Dear WisdomBeing,

Not disregard, but we don't know the context for Trijang Rinpoche's comments.  It completely depends upon your intention. Of course it is wrong to criticise anyone for petty or selfish reasons because that's just giving in to delusion, but I do not accept a 'black and white' view that all criticism has to be delusional and it is better not to say anything for fear of accumulating negativity.  I think we need to be careful that this doesn't lead to passivity and the acceptance of what anyone says or does.

[WisdomBeing]

This is pure Dharma from a true Bodhisattva.... if HH Trijang Rinpoche was my lineage Guru - the Guru of my Guru - would I disregard what he says?Music Delighting The Ocean Of Protectors:, 1967

Dear WisdomBeing,

Not disregard, but we don't know the context for Trijang Rinpoche's comments.  It completely depends upon your intention. Of course it is wrong to criticise anyone for petty or selfish reasons because that's just giving in to delusion, but I do not accept a 'black and white' view that all criticism has to be delusional and it is better not to say anything for fear of accumulating negativity.  I think we need to be careful that this doesn't lead to passivity and the acceptance of what anyone says or does.

The context for Trijang Rinpoche's comments are surely in Music Delighting The Ocean Of Protectors? And with regard to intention - i heartily agree... this is something I have personally been having major issues with.

The intention of discussion - is it to 'win' or to discuss... and how is the discussion done. I enjoy listening to differing views but I often 'feel' the intention of the people discussing things is not a positive one. I personally don't like the tone of how certain views are presented - sarcastically, arrogantly and to me - not very Dharmically. They are words that are designed to put others down - no matter who they are - be it a Dharma nobody like me or Geshe Kelsang Gyatso or anyone. And this is something I have repeated ad nauseum for a long time - it's not so much what is said but how it is said that disturbs me.

I never like the tone of certain people who seemed to be deliberately provocative on a personal level. Be it on this forum or others I have visited. Of course, this is my personal view. I have stopped going to the other forums for sometime now because of what I feel as the unnecessary belligerence there against Shugden practitioners and the moderators there are either NOT moderating and letting people mouth off at each other, or they moderate to stop even any discussion of Shugden. So i don't go there. Personally, I like it here with the moderators who are active especially to stop people from simply being rude. And it is not difficult AT ALL to read between the lines when people are just out to put you down.

The whole Shugden issue is NOT about the ban.. for me it is much bigger than that. Whether the Dalai Lama is evil or not - is up to what you believe. I choose to believe he is not. If you choose to believe he is then so be it. I like to read about Shugden monasteries coming up. I like to read about the young tulkus being identified. And it's not just the Dalai Lama who identifies them surely? I believe that other Shugden Lamas and the Shugden oracles also identify tulkus - so are the Shugden oracles and other high Lamas like Gonsar Rinpoche or Gangchen Rinpoche wrong too?

I like to read about stories like Geshe Thupten now at Shar Gaden. I like to read about Domo Geshe Rinpoche which i just posted from Shar Gaden's website.

This is me talking - not some global consciousness or whatever you are talking about. This is what I like and what this site seems to be providing.

Again - if you don't like it here, please don't come here and spoil it for me. I don't get it why people keep wanting to come here specifically to create dissension among Shugden practitioners when there is already enough trouble against Shugden practitioners when there is MUCH more we can enjoy doing.

The TGIE who probably do visit here often are probably laughing all the way at the petty squabbles Shugden practitioners are having, fighting amongst themselves like children. And for what? What are you trying to prove?

That the Dalai Lama is evil?

Aren't we taught that we should not judge because each person's karma is the ultimate judge? Unless you are saying the Dalai Lama is not bound by karma?

For me, there is nothing to debate. From ALL the discussions over many threads, I have come to my own conclusions which is logical to me. If it is not logical to you, it's fine. So be it. I accept you think like that - please accept that i think like this.

Let's move on PLEASE. It's a brand New Year today - can we please have a new positive, kindly attitude or is it just too much to ask for.

[thaimonk]

I'd like to know the answer to this question too.  Sometimes I'm suspicious of the 'groupthink' that is exhibited on this site.  I find it strange that so many people have the same view and there is no dissention or deviation from a particular view, especially the 'big picture'.  I do not find this 'harmony' to be a positive thing, perhaps it is a sign of a particular agenda or that people have stopped thinking for themselves.  I mean no offence by this, it's simply a call to examine our beliefs and to establish if they are derived from valid cognition or from something else.

I support Zhalmed Pawo's freedom of speech because I believe he is trying to stimulate genuine debate and critical examination of views.  We should never be afraid to question anything.

We live in a democracy, do we not?  I think this also applies to cyberspace, despite the best efforts of various governments to make it otherwise.

Groupthink? What about yourself, Zhalmed Pawo, Mohani, A friend, emptymountains, etc etc all sharing the exact same thought and when someone doesn't agree, all you get together and quote eachother positively or put others down together in one voice? Haven't you and aren't you doing a groupthink? Read the previous posts by Zhalmed, or emptymountains, etc carefully, they are very rude. Can't everyone else think for themselves. So if a few ppl think like me and agree with me on this forum, why am I part of a groupthink and you are not?

Zhalmed at times stimulates debate, and at times simply offends ppl so much. Yes offends. Whether you like it or not, as a dharma practitioner, be kind. I don't think Zhalmed is bad or a bad person, it's just, be kind.

We live in a democracy for sure. But do others have a right to tell you how to raise your kids? How to drive your car? What clothes you can and cannot wear? Or what food you eat? No they don't because THAT IS YOUR SPACE. Similarily, this cyberspace reserves the right to serve anyone. Like a restaurant. Do not all American, British, Japanese, Thai, Australian, Canadian restaurants exist in a democracy? Well any of these restaurants MAY EXCERCISE THE RIGHT NOT TO SERVE YOU if you don't agree with their policies on their premises. Same with hotels or various places of business. They do not have to take your business.

This forum doesn't have a private space or require money to join. You get all the benefits. Everything is out in the open. Nothing is talked about behind your back. It's all here. How open and how fair.  And you have a place to share. Focus on the positives of how much this space has provided you although you own nothing of it, yet you are allowed in AND EVERYTHING IS PROVIDED FOR YOU.  How gracious. ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS TURN ON YOUR PC, LOG IN AND YOU CAN PARTICIPATE WITH OTHER SAME LINEAGE PEOPLE. HOW EASY. FOCUS ON THAT. I thank this website from my heart. Everything is set up for you. Others have spent so much time, care, energy, love, resources and devotion obviously to Dorje Shugden and his devotees to provide this space for you and those interested. Incredible. How kind. So much work has gone into it, even I can see this.

I mean you have your other sites that you are writing in for sure? So if this one is so bad, why do you keep coming back? I am not chasing you away nor have the right, as I am a guest just like you,  but if this space is so undemocratic and you feel no gratitude for it, why return? I am sorry.

I support anyone's rights to free speech except when it's laced with threats, sarcasm, rude, condenscending, or anything similar.

I mean why does your posts ALWAY FOCUS ON JUST THE DALAI LAMA OR A FEW PEOPLE on this site or their thinking? Do you not have knowledge of anything else. Do you not have news of what is happening that is current to Dorje Shugden people? I mean look at posts by Big Uncle, Tk, Wisdom Being, Beggar, etc as it is filled with information, interesting non-Dalai Lama healthy debates, biographies, news, articles, practices, and the likes. I mean don't you have any more knowledge to share or information?

You have more than excercised your free speech on this forum when I read previous posts. If you don't like the view of the big picture THEN DON'T TALK ABOUT IT. WHEN OTHERS POST REGARDING THE BIG VIEW, DO NOT READ IT, DO NOT RESPOND, DO NOT PARTICIPATE, DO NOT DISPARAGE. Just focus on another thread. Let others talk about it. Why do I or anyone have to agree with your disagreement of the BIG PICTURE. So it is the same. If you don't like the thread, then DO NOT PARTICIPATE IN IT. FULL STOP. Stop telling me or others to not believe. And if you have tried to debate and I still hold my views about it and you're not happy, then just go to another thread. YOU TRIED YOUR BEST. Thank you.

We all belong more or less to the same lineage and same protector, I AM NOT YOUR ENEMY. I am not here to irritate you or be against you for the sake of it. I have my own opinions and so do you. The end.

I am not interested in the Dalai Lama. All have been said. There's is nothing new. But don't you have anything else?

Sorry, but can you stop criticizing and labelling people such as groupthinks? Can you just post on the dharma and subjects?


Again, I AM NOT YOUR ENEMY.

[Lineageholder]

Sorry, but can you stop criticizing and labelling people such as groupthinks? Can you just post on the dharma and subjects?


Again, I AM NOT YOUR ENEMY.

Dear WisdomBeing and thaimonk,

Thank you for your frank and honest posts.  I'm not attacking anyone, merely questioning the freedom of expression and agenda of this site. No one is my enemy, I'm sorry if my post came across in that way.

Many of the people you quoted in your post such as Mohani, Zhalmed Pawo and Trinley Kalsang are banned from this site, so they don't have the opportunity to respond to your comments.  This disturbs me.  I think, as Dorje Shugden practitioners, we should have had enough of bans, since we are already subject to them.  That, to some extent, the moderators are trying to control what people can say, is concerning.  It reminds me of E-Sangha, and rather more disturbingly, the TGIE who are trying to determine what view Tibetans have of Dorje Shugden and who stifle any opposition to that view.  I can say that the moderators have been tolerant of my views, but many of the people you quoted will not be able to read this post, or any other for that matter.  Since many Tibetan Buddhists are not tolerant of Dorje Shugden practitioners, surely we should try to show a different example by encouraging inclusiveness?

As to the tone of some posters, I'm sorry you find them to be rude.  I can't speak for them, only for me, but it's not my intention to be rude or unkind - this is not my nature.  I'm simply asking others to consider a different reality to the one that is commonly held by everyone here; maybe that's what is disturbing to others?

I am appreciative of the work of this site, but it's soured slightly by the feeling that there is some kind of media exercise going on and a 'big picture' or a 'big message' that is trying to be put across again and again.  As to why I come here, it's because I'm a Dorje Shugden practitioner and despite our differences, there is a solidarity and commonality.  I think every Dorje Shugden practitioner should have the right to come here, but as I'm reminded again and again when I express a different view, this is a private space and my being tolerated here is a privilege.  I don't think that's a helpful attitude because we should be welcoming everyone, especially Dorje Shugden practitioners.  As has been said, many people who are hostile to Dorje Shugden come here and often find ammunition to throw at us, but some who do the practice and are very supportive (apart from the fact that they don't accept the 'big picture' and say so openly) are not. Those who oppose and despise us are welcome to peruse this site freely but our brothers and sympathizers are not.

Does that not seems strange? 

I realise that I'm probably risking a ban myself by being so candid.  I'm not criticising the moderators, merely the policy and the actions it has given rise to and I'm asking for careful consideration before bans are applied.

Thanks for reading, that's all I'm going to say on the matter.

[WisdomBeing]

LineageHolder,

just my two cents to add - Zhalmed Pawo is not banned - the Moderator said he was suspended for three days. Also i remember Trinley Kelsang left of his own accord? Or rather, he said he did - i don't know if the moderator banned him or not. i also vaguely remember Afriend saying he/she wanted to leave... i'm not a moderator so i am just speaking from an observer's point of view.

I guess that since you are still here, you haven't been rude enough

re the 'media exercise' - i think it is interesting that you think this site is all about promoting the bigger picture because just look at the topics on the front page of the forum ... how many topics are about the big picture and how many are about other aspects?

You think every Dorje Shugden practitioner should have the right to come here? I believe that every Dorje Shugden practitioner should have the right not to be abused - verbally, physically, psychologically. As i really don't know how everyone else feels on this forum, i usually speak on my own behalf - how it makes ME feel, which i have already shared often and at length so i shall not repeat again and really hope i don't feel compelled to again because it's so unnecessary.

For the last time - i think that if people don't agree on the big picture or agree on the big picture - it's everyone's personal view. Surely in the vastness of Dorje Shugden's practice and Tsongkhapa's lineage which Shugden is protecting, we can talk about other topics. There are so many topics in the forum. And if people don't like the rules of the forum, pls go elsewhere... what's the problem?

Just a very hypothetical scenario - If i have a restaurant serving free food but my condition on people coming to eat is that they must be polite and they must not insult my dad, yet people keep coming to eat and insulting my dad, and i tell them, yes you can eat the free food, but please don't be rude and don't insult my dad already, yet they keep insulting him AND me... wouldn't it make sense if i kicked them out? But after i kick them out, they complain about being kicked out? i don't get it. It's MY restaurant - i cook and prepare the free food... i pay the waiting staff, assistant chefs, and people to wash and clean after and the food is good (if it's not good, why come to my restaurant in the first place)... but other people have the RIGHT to come and do as they wish in MY restaurant? What are MY rights?

Anyway, as that was your last word, this is also mine. There are much more pleasant and constructive things to read and talk about. Hope to see you on another thread!

[thaimonk]

LineageHolder,

When I read your post it doesn't seem you are writing for the world to see the greatness of our lineage and practice on this beautiful and active forum. Whatever you write here, thousands will see eventually as it is active.

You always mention the same ppl that have left or were not welcomed here anymore. Your agenda seems to be to get on the good side of some ppl that are not here anymore. You seem to need their approval. You seem want to look good in front of them. Or so it seems that way to me. The more I read your posts, the more you slip those ppl in again and again. Do you not have your own opinions. Why do you need another's approval or try to get on their good side? Just my observation. I hope you gain self confidence soon. 

[beggar]

i think it is interesting that you think this site is all about promoting the bigger picture because just look at the topics on the front page of the forum ... how many topics are about the big picture and how many are about other aspects?

Wow, I've been reading this - very interesting that Geshe Helmut Gassner has become a discussion about freedom of speech!

Out of all the posts, I think this paragraph by wisdom being stands out very clearly and is important to note.

I've been going through some articles recently and realise that yes, actually, the articles on the website show a very good balance - there are articles that are very strongly against the Dalai Lama and present many very logical points about why the DL's ban is wrong, incorrect, against human rights or religious freedoms etc. There are also good educational articles about dharma in general, tsongkhapa's tradition and dorje shugden's practice. There are videos which clearly show all the protests, the background of the situation, the different views and experiences. I think the website has done a very good job to present many sides of the story for us to see, view, debate and contemplate.

And what better place to do that than on the website forum itself. Recently, there have been many good and interesting posts about subjects DIFFERENT THAN the for dalai lama / anti dalai lama discussion. That's how a forum should be!

Like Thaimonk said, everyone here has all stated their stand clearly: we've presented our individual perspectives on the dalai lama / the ban and how we wish to react to the situation. It's okay if people DON'T agree with each other, but there's also a lot that we DO agree on and a lot of knowledge that we can share among us. who knows, perhaps when we share information on all other subjects, it will also help us to understand each other's views better. that doesn't mean we HAVE to agree with each other, but maybe help us understand all the different  perspectives better.

People have different methods - some may not like others, but that's okay, in fact, it's good that there are different methods to reach out to different people. I am for any method that will bring people to dharma and the teachings and our protector. There will always be people who will be put off or choose the wrong path, no matter what we do - so do we focus only on those people or try to reach out to others?

I find it sad that sometimes the forum just becomes about trying to "wrong" an opposing/ disagreeing side, or making these cutting remarks. Okay, let's look at it in a broad way. Say you disagree with a view - is continuously bashing that view and making sarcastic remarks going to help anyone? how will a new person coming into this forum view these kinds of sarcastic comments? Instead, could we find a way to share more information, ask questions about the view you disagree with to understand where it's coming from, show information or evidence to back up what you are saying... that will help everyone.

Like wisdom being said, people are being banned not for necessarily for the content but the way in which they are behaving or talking on the forum, which I too often is often unnecessary, provoking or just plain rude and drags down the energy of the forum. The rules are already posted up clearly for all participants to read and understand. Like we have said many times, if people do not agree with the rules or don't wish to play by them, then we respectfully request them to not participate.