Buddha gave us a warning for the future.

[Zach]

Anguttara Nikaya Sutta 5.88 (The Buddha Gave Us This Warning For The Future)

It is possible that a world-renowned monk of very senior status, with a huge following of lay & monastic disciples & who is highly learned in scriptures, can have wrong views.

Now I wonder whom that could be...

[DSFriend]

I've read similar proclamation in the christian bible too...but of course not who people think it is from the buddhist circle.

I am not a teacher or learned in anyway, but as an aspiring practitioner, i take this advice to heart of how important it is to be free of wrong views...

[WisdomBeing]

i agree with DSFriend... this is indeed good advice for every one of us to be careful NOT to have wrong views, especially as Buddha has pointed out that it is possible for even a senior monk can have such wrong views, let alone an ant like me.

[triesa]

Anguttara Nikaya Sutta 5.88 (The Buddha Gave Us This Warning For The Future)

It is possible that a world-renowned monk of very senior status, with a huge following of lay & monastic disciples & who is highly learned in scriptures, can have wrong views.

Now I wonder whom that could be...

Thanks Zach for sharing this. Wrong or right views are very subjective, your"s wrong view may be my right view, and your's right may be my wrong.

To be completely free of wrong views is still a long way to go for me, and in my layman terms and practice, I keep reminding myself not to be judgemental too easily. Many of us tends to pass an opinion to a situation or to a person based on some circumstances, with that a preconceived notion is formed which tends to affect all our future perception of things.

I think it is just good to see things as they are...........at least for my level now.............

[Big Uncle]

This is a valid prophecy since it was spoken by the Buddha but he didn't say who it was and it would be very foolish to jump onto conclusions based on our limited wisdom and observation. I wouldn't be so quick to surmise that this prophecy would apply to a particular famous Lama since very attained and clairvoyant Lamas would have recognised this Lama. They wouldn't recognize, install or teach someone who would eventually create massive problems like those prophesied by the Buddha.                                                                                                                             

[Heartspoon]

This is a valid prophecy since it was spoken by the Buddha but he didn't say who it was and it would be very foolish to jump onto conclusions based on our limited wisdom and observation. I wouldn't be so quick to surmise that this prophecy would apply to a particular famous Lama since very attained and clairvoyant Lamas would have recognised this Lama. They wouldn't recognize, install or teach someone who would eventually create massive problems like those prophesied by the Buddha.                                                                                                                             

Prime Minister Samdhong is Encouraging Violence Against Shugden Practitioners

“Now, without fear and hesitation, we, Tibetans, must fight and destroy Shugden followers”

Samdhong Rinpoche

And this lama was recognized, installed or taught by the same attained and clairvoyant lamas.
Therefore, he is truly acting in an enlightened way, for sure...

[Heartspoon]

Anguttara Nikaya Sutta 5.88 (The Buddha Gave Us This Warning For The Future)

It is possible that a world-renowned monk of very senior status, with a huge following of lay & monastic disciples & who is highly learned in scriptures, can have wrong views.

Now I wonder whom that could be...

"The Dalai Lama continued:

“Those who worship Dholgyal are taken care of by the Chinese government. It would be best if they returned to where they are cared for. There is no reason for them to live here. Do you understand?”

Now I also wonder whom that could be...
Not this one, for sure: attained, clairvoyant and compassionate...

[Heartspoon]

Please, tell me again, I don't remember: where is it written
or taught that we should follow blindly a monk if he happens
to be of very senior status, with a huge following of lay and
monastic disciples, and highly learned in scriptures ?

If such a monk visits me and asks me to ban my mother
from my home due to her beliefs, I will unceremoniously
and compassionately  show him the door.

And I would think that it would be great if his followers somehow
showed him the door as well...

[hope rainbow]

When a Buddha acts in ways that we do not expect a Buddha to act:

Option 1: our faith is weak and we stop seeing a Buddha, what we see is a being defined by the challenging action that this being is doing or has done. Result: we either move backwards or we remain stationary (which equates to moving backwards).

Option 2: our faith plays its true role (it remains and keeps our minds virtuous when expectations of actions and results have been disappointed and when hopes have dissipated), what we see is a Buddha in action taking a student (me) through testing grounds, or blessing a student (me) with a teaching, or making a student (me) purify black karma, or making a student (me) unknowingly participate to the growth of Dharma through a student's (my) delusions (let's talk about skillful means!).

What makes a guru?
A guru can only be a guru in the eyes of his students that have invested faith in the guru having the qualities of a guru. The guru will challenge his students' faith, it's his job. As the guru tests his students, some student's faith will show to be strong and will grow stronger and some students' faith will be weak and will weaken further if an antidote is not applied quickly.
The moment a student stops investing his guru with the qualities of a Buddha, his guru cannot help him much any more, and as a result the faith weakens even further, this is a very saddening process.

I take an example to illustrate the above: the 6th Dalai Lama.
Some very powerful people then lost faith in His Holiness, they stopped seeing a Buddha and only saw someone who seemed to be principally interested in courting ladies. Because of the faith being lost, they engaged in actions that created obstacles for them to benefit from His Holiness.
Would their faith had remain, the modern history of Tibet would have been very different indeed.
We only need to look in the past to see how loosing faith in His Holiness had proven to be unwise, and in the light of that, re-consider what is happening today with a broader point of view.

[Heartspoon]

When a Buddha acts in ways that we do not expect a Buddha to act:

Option 1: our faith is weak and we stop seeing a Buddha, what we see is a being defined by the challenging action that this being is doing or has done. Result: we either move backwards or we remain stationary (which equates to moving backwards).

Option 2: our faith plays its true role (it remains and keeps our minds virtuous when expectations of actions and results have been disappointed and when hopes have dissipated), what we see is a Buddha in action taking a student (me) through testing grounds, or blessing a student (me) with a teaching, or making a student (me) purify black karma, or making a student (me) unknowingly participate to the growth of Dharma through a student's (my) delusions (let's talk about skillful means!).

What makes a guru?
A guru can only be a guru in the eyes of his students that have invested faith in the guru having the qualities of a guru. The guru will challenge his students' faith, it's his job. As the guru tests his students, some student's faith will show to be strong and will grow stronger and some students' faith will be weak and will weaken further if an antidote is not applied quickly.
The moment a student stops investing his guru with the qualities of a Buddha, his guru cannot help him much any more, and as a result the faith weakens even further, this is a very saddening process.

I take an example to illustrate the above: the 6th Dalai Lama.
Some very powerful people then lost faith in His Holiness, they stopped seeing a Buddha and only saw someone who seemed to be principally interested in courting ladies. Because of the faith being lost, they engaged in actions that created obstacles for them to benefit from His Holiness.
Would their faith had remain, the modern history of Tibet would have been very different indeed.
We only need to look in the past to see how loosing faith in His Holiness had proven to be unwise, and in the light of that, re-consider what is happening today with a broader point of view.

It's exactly as you said !

One should also remember that our guru will not be exactly delighted if we agree to do something that is in contradiction with the teachings of Buddha simply because it was our guru who asked us to do it...

[Zach]

This is a valid prophecy since it was spoken by the Buddha but he didn't say who it was and it would be very foolish to jump onto conclusions based on our limited wisdom and observation. I wouldn't be so quick to surmise that this prophecy would apply to a particular famous Lama since very attained and clairvoyant Lamas would have recognised this Lama. They wouldn't recognize, install or teach someone who would eventually create massive problems like those prophesied by the Buddha.                                                                                                                             

But then that would make Buddhas prophecy false wouldnt it because such would not come into fruition ?

[Zach]

There is a good reason why spiritual guides are ment to keep perfect Vinaya discipline.
With Regards to choosing a spiritual guide one should examine them carefully to make sure they do already have unwavering discipline otherwise if not then if your lama misbehaves you basis of faith will be shaken.
The 6th Dalai lama wouldnt have been on my list of choosing for a spiritual guide regardless of how high the title if one cannot show correct conventional discipline so that people may develop faith then many people will not enter the path.

[WisdomBeing]

who ever the Buddha had meant in his prophecy could apply to so many senior monks that there is really no point speculating. The Dalai Lama could easily use that prophecy to say that Pabongka Rinpoche or Trijang Rinpoche was wrong, so i believe that this debate is a completely illusory one.

[hope rainbow]

from Zach W

There is a good reason why spiritual guides are ment to keep perfect Vinaya discipline.
With Regards to choosing a spiritual guide one should examine them carefully to make sure they do already have unwavering discipline otherwise if not then if your lama misbehaves you basis of faith will be shaken.
The 6th Dalai lama wouldnt have been on my list of choosing for a spiritual guide regardless of how high the title if one cannot show correct conventional discipline so that people may develop faith then many people will not enter the path.

I think it is Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (in Joyful Path) who has this definition of faith (this is from memory, I hope I get it right)): "faith is the natural virtuous mind that remains when one sees faults in the observed object of faith".
Seeing faults in the 6th Dalai Lama's actions denotes of the same process as seeing faults in the 14th Dalai Lama's actions. My reference to the 6th is historical, with the distance we can now acknowledge that the 6th's actions were motivated NOT by attachment to ladies, but had for aim to strengthen the political seat of Tibet by making it a kingdom would he have been left to have a son. With a politically stronger Tibet, there was also a stronger worldly platform for the growth of Dharma. With the 6th we have the time distance giving us more perspective to appreciate His Holiness' actions, we do not have the same time distance to appreciate the actions of the 14th Dalai Lama, but we have... FAITH!

Or we don't.

[triesa]

from Zach W

There is a good reason why spiritual guides are ment to keep perfect Vinaya discipline.
With Regards to choosing a spiritual guide one should examine them carefully to make sure they do already have unwavering discipline otherwise if not then if your lama misbehaves you basis of faith will be shaken.
The 6th Dalai lama wouldnt have been on my list of choosing for a spiritual guide regardless of how high the title if one cannot show correct conventional discipline so that people may develop faith then many people will not enter the path.

I think it is Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (in Joyful Path) who has this definition of faith (this is from memory, I hope I get it right)): "faith is the natural virtuous mind that remains when one sees faults in the observed object of faith".
Seeing faults in the 6th Dalai Lama's actions denotes of the same process as seeing faults in the 14th Dalai Lama's actions. My reference to the 6th is historical, with the distance we can now acknowledge that the 6th's actions were motivated NOT by attachment to ladies, but had for aim to strengthen the political seat of Tibet by making it a kingdom would he have been left to have a son. With a politically stronger Tibet, there was also a stronger worldly platform for the growth of Dharma. With the 6th we have the time distance giving us more perspective to appreciate His Holiness' actions, we do not have the same time distance to appreciate the actions of the 14th Dalai Lama, but we have... FAITH!

Or we don't.

HopeRainbow, I like so much that you used the 6th Dalai Lama as an example for us to relate to the current 14th Dalai Lama. Only "time" and "distance" will give us more persepctive on the whole scenerio.  So lets give ourselves Time and Distance now and don't lose "FAITH"!!!!!