Buddha gave us a warning for the future.

[Lineageholder]

Seeing faults in the 6th Dalai Lama's actions denotes of the same process as seeing faults in the 14th Dalai Lama's actions. My reference to the 6th is historical, with the distance we can now acknowledge that the 6th's actions were motivated NOT by attachment to ladies, but had for aim to strengthen the political seat of Tibet by making it a kingdom would he have been left to have a son. With a politically stronger Tibet, there was also a stronger worldly platform for the growth of Dharma.

Wow, where do you get that from?

I'm just curious.

[Admin]

Seeing faults in the 6th Dalai Lama's actions denotes of the same process as seeing faults in the 14th Dalai Lama's actions. My reference to the 6th is historical, with the distance we can now acknowledge that the 6th's actions were motivated NOT by attachment to ladies, but had for aim to strengthen the political seat of Tibet by making it a kingdom would he have been left to have a son. With a politically stronger Tibet, there was also a stronger worldly platform for the growth of Dharma.

Wow, where do you get that from?

I'm just curious.

It is described in details in Glenn Mullin's "The Fourteen Dalai Lamas: A Sacred Legacy of Reincarnation".
(2001) Clear Light Publishers, Santa Fe, New Mexico. ISBN 1-57416-092-3

[Lineageholder]

Seeing faults in the 6th Dalai Lama's actions denotes of the same process as seeing faults in the 14th Dalai Lama's actions. My reference to the 6th is historical, with the distance we can now acknowledge that the 6th's actions were motivated NOT by attachment to ladies, but had for aim to strengthen the political seat of Tibet by making it a kingdom would he have been left to have a son. With a politically stronger Tibet, there was also a stronger worldly platform for the growth of Dharma.

With respect, there's no way you can say that the Dalai Lama's actions were not motivated by attachment to ladies.  How can anyone say that unless they know the 6th Dalai Lama's mind?  He was, apparently, amorous.  There is further evidence to reach this conclusion from his poetry, for example:

’I incline myself
To the teachings of my lama
But my heart secretly escapes
To the thoughts of my sweetheart’

’Even if meditated upon,
The face of my lama comes not to me,
But again and again comes to me
The smiling face of my beloved’

http://www.tibetwrites.org/?Some-poems-of-the-Sixth-Dalai-Lama

It sounds like another case of apologism on behalf of the (apparently) faulty moral discipline of the Dalai Lama.

I suppose the 13th Dalai Lama signing orders to torture and execute others was his way of getting them to practise patience.........sigh.  What a kindness! 

[Zach]

Morale Discipline is essential.
Dont forget Holy beings manifest with the intention of helping us and personally I beleive the most effective way is doing as the Buddha has shown by showing pure virtue by acting as a holder of morale discipline.
This is suitable spiritual guide material and is sound advise on behalf of the accomplished. A lack of morale discipline is not effective for one to be of guidence toward others especially in Dharma, if what they preach isnt mirrored in action then this stands as hypocracy.

I prefer those who can do without the politics and present themselves in accordence with the Dharma. That is Noble.

[Helena]

who ever the Buddha had meant in his prophecy could apply to so many senior monks that there is really no point speculating. The Dalai Lama could easily use that prophecy to say that Pabongka Rinpoche or Trijang Rinpoche was wrong, so i believe that this debate is a completely illusory one.

I love what you wrote here, WB.

Every Enlightened Being works in his or her own mysterious ways to bring about the most benefit.

That is the most amazing part.

Let's not get caught up and carried away with the illusory plays but play a concrete beneficial role in every situation that reflects our Guru's teachings well.

Those are the real results that last through time and future lives.

[hope rainbow]

Morale Discipline is essential.
Dont forget Holy beings manifest with the intention of helping us and personally I beleive the most effective way is doing as the Buddha has shown by showing pure virtue by acting as a holder of morale discipline.
This is suitable spiritual guide material and is sound advise on behalf of the accomplished. A lack of morale discipline is not effective for one to be of guidence toward others especially in Dharma, if what they preach isnt mirrored in action then this stands as hypocracy.
I prefer those who can do without the politics and present themselves in accordence with the Dharma. That is Noble.

Hi Zach,
I also prefer those who can do without the politics.
And I really did not engage into a spiritual path to get into this mess of politics, on the contrary, I wanted peace of mind, not controversy and cie. Debating about controversy and politics is clearly not what I expected my spiritual path would be.

Yet, it is my karma that I must go through what looks like a mess, like political manipulation, what looks like "schismic" activity from the very people I expected otherwise, and even what looks like "immoral" activity also (6th and 13th -dixit).
So, it is up to me to resolve the problem in my mind, I really think it is.

Eventually, it is very simple, either The Dalai Lama is legitimate, or he isn't.

By study of the history of the Dalai Lamas, and the history of Tibet, by the observation of the behavior of the high lamas acting around the Dalai Lama (the reading of Trijang Rinpoche's biography for instance), I find more reasons for me to believe that His Holines is Chenrezig acting skilfully than otherwise. I am not qualified to know "for sure", but I must have enough merit to have faith and rely on those I find trutworthy, faith in the 6th Dalai Lama, faith in the 5th Dalai Lama, in the 3rd, in the 13th and in the 14th Dalai Lama (list is not exhaustive).

Thousands, hundreds, millions should rejoyce in his actions, for it is through His Holiness that mahayana and vajrayana buddhisme has spread across the globe in the 20th century, His Holiness works tirelessly for the sake of all sentient beings, it is my conclusion. His Holiness is the most famous buddhist monk in the world after Buddha Shakyamuni himself, he is known and respected by athesists, christians, muslims, hindous - what else is there to say?

I do not claim to understand everything that His Hoiliness does, I am not qualified, but my faith in him is based on logic, that is all I have for me now. And it does not mean that I support the ban, not at all, neither does it mean that I can agree with torture in the time of the 13th Dalai Lama, not at all.
Would I have in my hand a signed order from my guru to torture someone, I would not do it because I have faith in my guru for being a Buddha and I believe this would displease him greatly.

[Zach]

Thanks for your reply Hope Rainbow.

To some extent I agree friend. His Holiness in General has done a good job of promoting the Buddhadharma to a world wide auidence and I certainly rejoice in positive deeds such as this. However while i maintain respect for these actions i cannot applaud or accept certain other actions of his incarnation lineage and his current life.
Wether They are acting skillfully or not I dont know, But I can say with all my Heart that to accept someone as a Guru teacher they have to practise morale conduct as according to tradition and by virtue of very wholesome actions in general I would steer clear of political Lamas.

[hope rainbow]

Thank you for your reply Zach,

I like this conversation, it is mature and understanding, we don't need to have the same opinions, and it is fine like this, we try to inform each other because we care and we learn along the way.
I like this about this forum that hot topics can be discussed without the fire of anger burning.

I guess it is your privilege to be able to stay clear of political lamas. And probably, for most of us, it would be a more suitable choice to make (it would at least appear so). Some of us don't have the luxury of thatchoice though. In this case, I don't think the Dalai Lama had a choice, he had to be a political lama, regardless of how he has handled it. Some how politics was a platform to promote buddhism, we are still in samsara after all...

I disagree with the ban, which means I disagree with the Dalai Lama? Yes, it looks like it on the surface, but in any case, it does not mean he is no more Chenrezig. That is my conclusion.
The Dalai Lama has shown his skills in turning situations around so as to promote buddhism, so my stand is: how can we turn the ban around so as to help Dorje Shugden practice to grow. I think this is a more beneficial focus than exerting effort to demonstrate faults in the Dalai Lama (that could be damaging for his followers faith and I wouldn't want to conbtemplate the effect of that karma).

When you say this:
"But I can say with all my Heart that to accept someone as a Guru teacher they have to practise morale conduct as according to tradition and by virtue of very wholesome actions in general I would steer clear of political Lamas"
I actually agree with you, unless of course it means that I am missing in action for activities that are spreading Dharma and benefitting many. And for as long as moral conduct is untainted, politics is an aspect of samsara that some may have to use with proper motivation (bodhichitta). This is probably more difficult than retracting from the world and engage in "retreats", but if it shows to be the way for our world today, my personal preferences would have to give way. Good motivation is essential though, and refuge, and renunciation!

[beggar]

who ever the Buddha had meant in his prophecy could apply to so many senior monks that there is really no point speculating. The Dalai Lama could easily use that prophecy to say that Pabongka Rinpoche or Trijang Rinpoche was wrong, so i believe that this debate is a completely illusory one.

This is an excellent point. Instead of trying to guess who this supposedly wrong lama is, perhaps it would be better to consider how we would react to such a situation instead. Assuming a lama appears to be wrong: do you add more trouble or negativity to the situation or find more ways to help the beings involved?

[hope rainbow]

who ever the Buddha had meant in his prophecy could apply to so many senior monks that there is really no point speculating. The Dalai Lama could easily use that prophecy to say that Pabongka Rinpoche or Trijang Rinpoche was wrong, so i believe that this debate is a completely illusory one.

This is an excellent point. Instead of trying to guess who this supposedly wrong lama is, perhaps it would be better to consider how we would react to such a situation instead. Assuming a lama appears to be wrong: do you add more trouble or negativity to the situation or find more ways to help the beings involved?

Thank you Beggar, I totally agree with your post.
I think we miss the point and waste our time and energy when we spend it to find faults in lamas, instead of spending time helping others.