Author Topic: How HH Trijang Rinpoche's biography inspires people to think differently  (Read 8593 times)

WisdomBeing

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I'd just like to share how HH Trijang Rinpoche's biography (which was published by this website) is inspiring people to think differently:


This was an exchange on facebook:

Atisha's cook:
Nothing holy about this!
http://wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.blogspot.com/2011/01/dalai-lamas-shady-past.html?utm_source=twitterf

Thomas Ythan Jones:
I compare what you write with the way Trijang Dorjechang talks about Reting Rinpoche (the disgraced regent prior to DLXIV) and I see a big difference. Trijang Dorjechang was very clear to point out that ordinary beings have no sure way to know what's going on internally, so it is inappropriate for them to judge. Despite all the seemingly bad things that Reting Rinpoche did, Trijang Dorjechang never lost faith in him. Have a look (sorry, I can't remember the relevant page numbers, but it's in there):
http://dorjeshugden.com/articles/trijangrinpoche-bio-1of2.pdf

Similarly, Trijang Dorjechang's dying wish was that we never lose faith in Dorje Shugden, OR the Dalai Lama. Your criticism seems to go against our spiritual grandfather's wishes.

Anyway, I guess I've been pretty critical, too, from time to time, so I really don't have a leg to stand on. That said, when I remember Trijang Rinpoche's advice, it holds me back. Have a look at his amazing biography and try to find the passages about Reting Rinpoche, to see how an enlightened master deals with people who are supposed to be holy but make themselves objects of criticism. It's quite humbling.

OK, I found the pages - 87 to 88. You can find it on the link I gave earlier.


My response:

Dear Thomas... i know what you mean... it was a dilemma for me initially - it was easy to judge the Dalai Lama and follow the anti-Dalai Lama pro-Shugden herd. As you clearly say - when I read HH Trijang Rinpoche's bio and his Music Delighting, I am exceedingly humbled that who the hell am I to judge. I would rather follow HH Trijang Rinpoche's advice rather than my own deluded thinking for to me - HH Trijang Rinpoche is a Buddha. I am also humbled by your sharing here - that you are so sincere and honest. Thank you.
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Lineageholder

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Re: How HH Trijang Rinpoche's biography inspires people to think differently
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2011, 08:28:44 AM »
You can still think that someone is a Buddha but react to the conventional situation by calling them out about their actions, I don't see any contradiction.  Trijang Rinpoche said "don't lose faith in the Dalai Lama" he didn't say "don't tell the Dalai Lama that he's made a mistake".

The Dalai Lama has no problem saying that Trijang Rinpoche has made a mistake.

Lineageholder

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Re: How HH Trijang Rinpoche's biography inspires people to think differently
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2011, 09:02:49 AM »
I would rather follow HH Trijang Rinpoche's advice rather than my own deluded thinking for to me - HH Trijang Rinpoche is a Buddha.


Some more thoughts (request to the moderators - can we please have a facility for editing posts? :-D )

Buddha said that we should not believe what he says simply because he's called Buddha, instead he encouraged us to use our critical faculties to discern the truth.  The anti-Shugden argument is probably much the same - "the Dalai Lama says that Dorje Shugden is a spirit and we should not do the practice.  I would rather follow HHDL's advice than my own deluded thinking because HHDL is a Buddha".  Blind faith is better than no faith, but it's not reliable.

The Dalai Lama didn't believe Trijang Rinpoche about the nature and function of Dorje Shugden but made his own investigation........Oh!  shame he came to the wrong conclusion, but the point remains:  we need to think for ourself and have valid reasons for everything we believe.

Trijang Rinpoche's views are deeply persuasive for me, too, but you have to read what he actually says.  This is from Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors page 125:

Quote
There is something I must mention at this point.  As stated above, the Great Fifth Dalai Lama and Omniscient Panchen Rinpoche were like Lords of the Teachings. In actuality  they  are,  respectively,  Arya  Avalokiteswara  and  Buddha  Amitabha emanating  in  the  human  form  of  special  holy  beings.  Yet  this  Lord  of  Dharma Protectors  exhibited  an  ability  to  harm  or  destroy  them,  and  such  events  as  the Great  Fifth,  having  been  able  to  summon  this  Dharmapala  to  be  burned  with intense samadhi but not accomplish it, also shows that the enlightening activities of  these  great  masters  and  those  of  this  Dharmapala  are  each  as  mutually universal  and  pervasive  as  the  other.  But  some  who  are  narrow  minded,  not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being  and,  with  supposed  faith  in  the  Dalai  Lama  and  the  Panchen  Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the
Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and  speaking  badly  about  either  in  any  way  is  the  conduct  of  an  ordinary  being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt  enemies
Quote

Trijang Rinpoche is talking about the 5th Dalai Lama, not the Dalai Lama per se.  Did Trijang Rinpoche say "don't lose faith in the Fourteenth Dalai Lama"?  As I said before, he also didn't say that we couldn't tell the Fourteenth Dalai Lama that he's wrong and has made a mistake.  I keep seeing this quotation on the internet:

HH Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche gave this advice:“Don’t lose faith in His Holiness – don’t lose faith in Dorje Shugden.”

http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=134

but can someone give a qualified source for this quotation, or is it just something that someone heard and interpreted in a particular way?  We can't rely on hearsay.  Some people claim that Trijang Rinpoche abandoned his practice of Dorje Shugden towards the end of his life, or that Je Pabongkhapa and his followers destroyed images of Padmasambhava in Kham, but we can't rely on false rumours.  Anybody can claim "so-and-so said this..." but where's the evidence?

There is a saying that for evil to flourish in this world, all that needs to happen is for good people to do nothing.  I think blindly accepting the Dalai Lama's position on Dorje Shugden and his actions, somehow believing this is correct and even using scripture to justify not saying anything is a dangerous position to be in. 

Lineageholder

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Re: How HH Trijang Rinpoche's biography inspires people to think differently
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2011, 10:28:37 AM »
Sorry, reformatted.....

I would rather follow HH Trijang Rinpoche's advice rather than my own deluded thinking for to me - HH Trijang Rinpoche is a Buddha.


Some more thoughts (request to the moderators - can we please have a facility for editing posts? :-D thanks)

Buddha said that we should not believe what he says simply because he's called Buddha, instead he encouraged us to use our critical faculties to discern the truth.  The anti-Shugden argument is probably much the same - "the Dalai Lama says that Dorje Shugden is a spirit and we should not do the practice.  I would rather follow HHDL's advice than my own deluded thinking because HHDL is a Buddha".  Blind faith is better than no faith, but it's not reliable.

The Dalai Lama didn't believe Trijang Rinpoche about the nature and function of Dorje Shugden but made his own investigation........Oh!  shame he came to the wrong conclusion, but the point remains:  we need to think for ourself and have valid reasons for everything we believe.

Trijang Rinpoche's views are deeply persuasive for me, too, but you have to read what he actually says.  This is from Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors page 125:

Quote
There is something I must mention at this point.  As stated above, the Great Fifth Dalai Lama and Omniscient Panchen Rinpoche were like Lords of the Teachings. In actuality  they  are,  respectively,  Arya  Avalokiteswara  and  Buddha  Amitabha emanating  in  the  human  form  of  special  holy  beings.  Yet  this  Lord  of  Dharma Protectors  exhibited  an  ability  to  harm  or  destroy  them,  and  such  events  as  the Great  Fifth,  having  been  able  to  summon  this  Dharmapala  to  be  burned  with intense samadhi but not accomplish it, also shows that the enlightening activities of  these  great  masters  and  those  of  this  Dharmapala  are  each  as  mutually universal  and  pervasive  as  the  other.  But  some  who  are  narrow  minded,  not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being  and,  with  supposed  faith  in  the  Dalai  Lama  and  the  Panchen  Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and  speaking  badly  about  either  in  any  way  is  the  conduct  of  an  ordinary  being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt  enemies


Trijang Rinpoche is talking about the 5th Dalai Lama, not the Dalai Lama per se.  Did Trijang Rinpoche say "don't lose faith in the Fourteenth Dalai Lama"?  As I said before, he also didn't say that we couldn't tell the Fourteenth Dalai Lama that he's wrong and has made a mistake.  I keep seeing this quotation on the internet:

HH Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche gave this advice:“Don’t lose faith in His Holiness – don’t lose faith in Dorje Shugden.”

http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=134

but can someone give a qualified source for this quotation, or is it just something that someone heard and interpreted in a particular way?  We can't rely on hearsay.  Some people claim that Trijang Rinpoche abandoned his practice of Dorje Shugden towards the end of his life, or that Je Pabongkhapa and his followers destroyed images of Padmasambhava in Kham, but we can't rely on false rumours.  Anybody can claim "so-and-so said this..." but where's the evidence?

There is a saying that for evil to flourish in this world, all that needs to happen is for good people to do nothing.  I think blindly accepting the Dalai Lama's position on Dorje Shugden and his actions, somehow believing this is correct and even using scripture to justify not saying anything is a dangerous position to be in. 

hope rainbow

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Re: How HH Trijang Rinpoche's biography inspires people to think differently
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2011, 02:13:10 PM »
I really appreciate the workings of truth-seekers in this forum.
The fact is that without faith and without the guidance of a guru, there is little to be said of a spiritual path.
When we read over the events of the regent and ex-regent in Trijang Rinpoche's biography, there is also a small mention about the type of karma involved, a mention that highlights the workings of skillful means.
Sometimes buddhas have no other choice to make us act in meritorious ways, they use our delusions, out of delusions we do a lot more than out of virtue -these are our samsaric ways, unfortunately.
Homage to the Buddha, antidote to pride, maybe a useful practice to strengthen our faith when we come to the difficult practice of having to make sense of a buddha's actions.

triesa

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Re: How HH Trijang Rinpoche's biography inspires people to think differently
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2011, 02:29:34 PM »
You can still think that someone is a Buddha but react to the conventional situation by calling them out about their actions, I don't see any contradiction.  Trijang Rinpoche said "don't lose faith in the Dalai Lama" he didn't say "don't tell the Dalai Lama that he's made a mistake".

The Dalai Lama has no problem saying that Trijang Rinpoche has made a mistake.

When I read the line..."Don't lose faith in the Dalai Lama",  my interpretation is whatever the Dalai Lama may project himself into, I must not use my deluded mind to judge. Like what Thomas Jones has said, for a holy being like the Dalai Lama, to make himself to be the object of critisism, it is extremely humbling.

Likewise, when I read the line..."Don't lose faith in Dorje Shugden", my interpretation is that whatever Dorje Shugden is being protrayed as, i must also not use my deluded mind to judge. The most effective way is to find out the facts, which are very clearly presented in many ways in this website, from lineage masters practising Dorje Shugden, to who Dorje Shugden is, and to the current incarnations of the tulkus, from all aspects and all angles, the evidence is clear.

I treat the whole scenerio or conflict between the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden as a "Fact and Truth" finding and revealing exercise. Perhaps that is what it is intended............

Lineageholder

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Re: How HH Trijang Rinpoche's biography inspires people to think differently
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2011, 10:36:26 PM »
The most effective way is to find out the facts, which are very clearly presented in many ways in this website, from lineage masters practising Dorje Shugden, to who Dorje Shugden is, and to the current incarnations of the tulkus, from all aspects and all angles, the evidence is clear.

Fantastic!  I totally agree.  We should gather the evidence and then conclude accordingly.  The Dalai Lama is still making divisive speeches against Shugden practitioners.  Is there any benefit whatsoever in doing this? None.  Is it a virtuous action?  No.  Is it causing suffering to others?  Yes.

I've examined the evidence and drawn my own conclusions about the Dalai Lama and his actions.

WisdomBeing

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Re: How HH Trijang Rinpoche's biography inspires people to think differently
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2011, 05:41:47 AM »
I think blindly accepting the Dalai Lama's position on Dorje Shugden and his actions, somehow believing this is correct and even using scripture to justify not saying anything is a dangerous position to be in. 

i don't think that anyone here approves or supports the Dalai Lama's ban on Shugden - and this has been repeated so many times.

Again for the umpteenth time - it is NOT about NOT saying anything but HOW you say it.
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Helena

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Re: How HH Trijang Rinpoche's biography inspires people to think differently
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2011, 06:07:58 AM »
I echo what WB wrote - NO ONE HERE APPROVES OR SUPPORTS HHDL'S BAN ON DORJE SHUGDEN.

AND YES, IT HAS BEEN REPEATED MANY MANY TIMES.

I believes, everyone has examined the evidence for themselves, and they have drawn their own conclusions.

That is very clear to see and read.

There is no need to dictate what others should believe or not, or even judge whether they are wrong or right.

Let's focus on how we can all do more to promote Dorje Shugden and educate others about the misconception that is piled onto our great King Protector. We can also help and contribute to the Dorje Shugden monasteries, monks and etc.

Honestly, we are already united in one very important thing and that is, we all love Dorje Shugden and believe in HIM.

Hence, let that be the common ground on which we stand upon and congregate to do better and more beneficial things.

 
Helena

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Re: How HH Trijang Rinpoche's biography inspires people to think differently
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2011, 08:37:04 AM »
I think blindly accepting the Dalai Lama's position on Dorje Shugden and his actions, somehow believing this is correct and even using scripture to justify not saying anything is a dangerous position to be in. 

i don't think that anyone here approves or supports the Dalai Lama's ban on Shugden - and this has been repeated so many times.

Again for the umpteenth time - it is NOT about NOT saying anything but HOW you say it.

But you implicitly support it because you believe that Dalai Lama's actions are enlightened actions and are therefore beneficial.

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Re: How HH Trijang Rinpoche's biography inspires people to think differently
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2011, 08:44:28 AM »

There is no need to dictate what others should believe or not, or even judge whether they are wrong or right.

Dear Helena,

I agree, there's no need to dictate what others should or should not believe, even though the Dalai Lama is doing this with the Tibetan Buddhist community, but there certainly is a need to judge whether someone is wrong or right, because logicians have been doing this through the whole history of Buddhism.  We judge that the arguments of the 'proponents of things', for example, asserting the inherent existence of things are wrong.  We must use our discriminating wisdom to discover the truth in all matters concerning Buddha's teachings.

With respect, what I'm against is blind apologism on behalf of the actions of any of the Dalai Lamas.  We cannot adopt the view "these must be holy actions because it's the Dalai Lama".  We must examine the facts and draw a valid conclusion based on the evidence and the effects of those actions.