Goodnight Lama-the blackmail tapes

[Lotus]

I cannot see what this topic has to do in this forum.  This is a forum dedicated to promoting Dorje Shugden is it not? Also, this forum is dedicated to doing so in a harmonious matter.  This topic has has been posted on an anti-nkt website in detail, and refuted on an NKT website in detail.  It is to the comment sections of these places you really should go,  if you wish to discuss further.  How can anyone on this forum provide more details than those given at nkttruth, or at Tenzin Paljor's site?  Further discussion on a historic issue that no one knows much about (having not been there), does not benefit anyone.  You know both sides of the story in all the detail that we are likely to ever get from both opposing sites.  In this case, as in all history, it comes down to which side you believe.  Are you fishing for more information from someone who was there?  I should think it is  highly unlikely you will get any more information here.

We have two sides, two versions.  There is nothing more to add.  To discuss further is only engaging in idle chatter and gossip - no matter which side you support. 

This forum is not an appropriate place for this discussion.  This is a place for Dorje Shugden practitioners to unite and discuss harmoniously, topics relating to Dorje Shugden or our dharma practice.

I would encourage you to continue this discussion on the appropriate website.  I am sure Tenzin Paljor will only be too happy to chatter ad infinitum to you about it- and of course you can always ask questions to NewKadampaTruth. 

This topic does not belong in this forum.

[thaimonk]

Yes, I find it disturbing that all NKT and related ppl talk about is Dalai Lama. I am not NKT and I do not agree with this. But If I post something on Geshe Kelsang, NKT and WSS, HOW IS THAT RETALIATORY??? Why are these three entities when discussed retaliatory? They are in direct confrontational stance against the Dalai Lama. Their background has to be understood for ppl to agree to this stance.

Only you can know your motivation for starting this thread.  I can see that you are upset that people like myself find fault with the Dalai Lama, but the simple fact is, he is the one who has caused the Dorje Shugden problem and so he is the one who needs to be examined.  This site would not even exist were it not for his actions.  He's the one who is responsible for the ban of Dorje Shugden, the smearing of Dorje Shugden practice as a spirit worshipping cult, ostracism of Dorje Shugden practitioners, the explusion of Geshe Kelsang from his monastery and many other harmful actions; this is undeniably true.

This site is not about the NKT or Geshe Kelsang who have not caused any problems in relation to Dorje Shugden and is surely off topic considering what the purpose of this website is about?  If you have doubts about NKT,  you could read the NKT Truth Site which may answer your questions

http://www.newkadampatruth.org/

As you will see, some of the smears are related to Dorje Shugden, which is relevant to this site.

There is also an associated blog  http://newkadampatruth.wordpress.com/
 
While I agree that NKT and Geshe Kelsang are not beyond questioning or doubt because anything can be questioned and doubted,  I don't think you're going to get the answers to your questions about NKT by examining and spreading Tenzin Peljor's misinformation and distorted views (especially his wrong belief that NKT and WSS are the same - they aren't; WSS also includes Tibetan practitioners), so I don't understand what the purpose of this thread is and how it contributes positively to anything. 

Dear Lineageholder,

I know nothing about Tenzin Peljor or his intents or he has an axe to grind with NKT till you said so. I would like to hear what went wrong with him and NKT, because his site will be damaging to NKT and hence indirectly to the Dorje Shugden movement. It is good to understand.

NKT has so much to do with the Dorje Shugden ban issue. If is was not for the ban, we would never talk about NKT. NKT has made itself an integral part of the movement toward removing the ban. NKT-Dalai Lama ban-Dorje Shugden are all interwoven at this time. All needs to be understood. It is 'one' and the same whether in the Tibetan or non-Tibetan communities. It is already inextricably woven together. So NKT and it's hate sites as well as sites that are pro NKT are part of this whole ban issue now. For Better or worse, Geshe Kelsang was very brave to go ahead with this. I respect him for that. I don't like all his methods, but I DEFINITELY admire/respect his motivation for it and supreme guru devotion.

Since Dalai Lama has everything to do with this ban and website and discussions on him will go on, also the same with NKT/Geshe Kelsang with similar reasoning.

We will not agree with Dalai Lama, oracles, Tulkus, the big picture, the brochures available on this site, Geshe Kelsang, and NKT probably never will, but that is ok. I am ok with that. In the end, it is our practice, samayas, attainments that really matter. We can have all our differences as we have been for quite a while now, but it's not damaging. And truthfully to tell you, I find we are both passionate for our beliefs. We don't sit back and just let it happen. We speak up. Perhaps we have that in common.You express your's and I do mine. It's in this common factor I do apprecate your participation.

I want you to understand once and for all, when I talk about Geshe Kelsang/NKT, it is not to get back at you or retaliatory. I understand he is your guru or at least you admire him. But he like the Dalai Lama will be accountable for their actions by both sides. There is no difference in Geshe Kelsang and Dalai Lama. If Dalai Lama makes the ban, he has to be ready for mudslinging. If Geshe Kelsang is opposing Dalai Lama, he has to be ready for big time enemies. Either way, these two great men will have to be ready for whatever actions they do. Since you are pro Geshe Kelsang, you will be sensitive to any subjects brought up about him. But I am sorry. I am not aiming at you when I talk about this now or in the future. Just as you are unhappy when something is even remotely seemingly critical of Geshe Kelsang, there will be unhappiness when you criticize mine/others beliefs in Oracles, Tulkus, etc. You can write your anti Dalai Lama feelings or anti oracle feelings and expect acceptance. Well I can write about Geshe Kelsang/NKT and expect your acceptance also. After all this forum is about Dorje Shugden and all related subjects no matter how remote. If we do not like a thread, just don't go there. That is what I do. I don't go to threads on this forum I do not wish to be involved with.

I do not agree with everything you say here, but I do APPRECIATE the tone of your writing this time, your politeness and your effort to explain free of sarcasm or insults. I appreciate this very much. I thank you also.

Thaimonk

[Lineageholder]

I cannot see what this topic has to do in this forum. 

<snip>

This topic does not belong in this forum.

Dear lotus,

Thanks for your words, I completely agree with you.  This topic does not belong on this forum.

[thaimonk]

I cannot see what this topic has to do in this forum.  This is a forum dedicated to promoting Dorje Shugden is it not? Also, this forum is dedicated to doing so in a harmonious matter.  This topic has has been posted on an anti-nkt website in detail, and refuted on an NKT website in detail.  It is to the comment sections of these places you really should go,  if you wish to discuss further.  How can anyone on this forum provide more details than those given at nkttruth, or at Tenzin Paljor's site?  Further discussion on a historic issue that no one knows much about (having not been there), does not benefit anyone.  You know both sides of the story in all the detail that we are likely to ever get from both opposing sites.  In this case, as in all history, it comes down to which side you believe.  Are you fishing for more information from someone who was there?  I should think it is  highly unlikely you will get any more information here.

We have two sides, two versions.  There is nothing more to add.  To discuss further is only engaging in idle chatter and gossip - no matter which side you support. 

This forum is not an appropriate place for this discussion.  This is a place for Dorje Shugden practitioners to unite and discuss harmoniously, topics relating to Dorje Shugden or our dharma practice.

I would encourage you to continue this discussion on the appropriate website.  I am sure Tenzin Paljor will only be too happy to chatter ad infinitum to you about it- and of course you can always ask questions to NewKadampaTruth. 

This topic does not belong in this forum.

Are you from NKT?

[Robert Thomas]

Dear Thaimonk

If you want to know about NKT please ask your questions and it's helpful if you also explain the purpose. I guess you weren't to know that picking a post of Tenzin's - whose sole wish appears to be to destroy NKT (albeit I hope for kind but misguided reasons) - and not giving any clear contstructive reason, would be seen as such a thoughtless act.

For the record. NKT has no disagreement with either Oracles or Tulkus. They are taught as valid traditions, however part of out westernisation is that we don't include these practices as NKT methods. What we do have is a healthy mistrust of how these two systems can be abused. But if a qualified teacher, who is your guru says that the practice is sound and those involved reliable - well of course rely on it. In the part Geshe Kelsang also showed this example, I attended a Dorje Shugden invocation many years ago in NKT. Also some of our prayers are written by Dorje Shugden through thebprevious Kuten Lama. Long term though its just not a practice we follow anymore. But of course it is authentic and I rejoice it is still a living tradition - like many other practices which NKT don't explicitly follow these days e,g 16 Arhat etc.

With best wishes

Robert

[thaimonk]

Dear Thaimonk

If you want to know about NKT please ask your questions and it's helpful if you also explain the purpose. I guess you weren't to know that picking a post of Tenzin's - whose sole wish appears to be to destroy NKT (albeit I hope for kind but misguided reasons) - and not giving any clear contstructive reason, would be seen as such a thoughtless act.

For the record. NKT has no disagreement with either Oracles or Tulkus. They are taught as valid traditions, however part of out westernisation is that we don't include these practices as NKT methods. What we do have is a healthy mistrust of how these two systems can be abused. But if a qualified teacher, who is your guru says that the practice is sound and those involved reliable - well of course rely on it. In the part Geshe Kelsang also showed this example, I attended a Dorje Shugden invocation many years ago in NKT. Also some of our prayers are written by Dorje Shugden through thebprevious Kuten Lama. Long term though its just not a practice we follow anymore. But of course it is authentic and I rejoice it is still a living tradition - like many other practices which NKT don't explicitly follow these days e,g 16 Arhat etc.

With best wishes

Robert

I have already expressed clearly to Lineageholder the intent of my post and questions. Whatever the intent, I wish to know more and I am sorry you will not allow it.

As for oracles and tulkus, some NKT followers in this forum has often criticized oracles and tulkus in the most sarcastic manner. You may check many previous posts. I find this unpleasant because I follow oracles, so does my Lama and his teachers.

I am glad NKT is not against these practices/traditions and it is just some followers of NKT. In any case we may discuss what we like in this forum and those of you who have interest may answer, otherwise please skip over the thread.

Peace,

Thaimonk

[Robert Thomas]

Dear Thaimonk

I am sorry that i and others have offended you. I saw Lineage holder also aplogised. We have clearly made mistakes in our choice of words, but i am sure none of us intended to offend. It just shows (at keast innmy case) that i still have much to learn.

To be clear, Any question is allowed re NKT. My request is that it is asked constructively. And any source is ok too - including Tenzin Peljor. However www.Newkadampatruth.org or it's blog www.Newkadampatruth.wordpress.com are probably much better places for specific questions. You will see they are very open and honest, good and bad about NKT is there.

Peace always

Robert

Robert

[thaimonk]

Dear Thaimonk

I am sorry that i and others have offended you. I saw Lineage holder also aplogised. We have clearly made mistakes in our choice of words, but i am sure none of us intended to offend. It just shows (at keast innmy case) that i still have much to learn.

To be clear, Any question is allowed re NKT. My request is that it is asked constructively. And any source is ok too - including Tenzin Peljor. However www.Newkadampatruth.org or it's blog www.Newkadampatruth.wordpress.com are probably much better places for specific questions. You will see they are very open and honest, good and bad about NKT is there.

Peace always

Robert

Robert

Dear Robert,

Thank you for your honesty and open-mindedness. It is very refreshing.

To ask questions in a constructive way is definitely the way to go. I agree.

I thank you for the sites you posted to read more on the good and 'bad' of NKT. I will read up and understand more. NKT is interwoven with our struggles against Dorje Shugden's ban, it is important we understand NKT better.

Thaimonk

[Lineageholder]

I do not agree with everything you say here, but I do APPRECIATE the tone of your writing this time, your politeness and your effort to explain free of sarcasm or insults. I appreciate this very much. I thank you also.

Thaimonk

Dear Thaimonk,

Thanks for your reply.  As I said, I'm sorry for attacking your beliefs which was inconsiderate of me, but I do not believe that this thread belongs in this forum, as the original blog gives a very distorted view of Dorje Shugden, NKT and the WSS and I think we're both on the same side in terms of opposing the ban on Dorje Shugden and the misperceptions that are being spread about him and the practice.  I understand that your posting this here was a reaction to what you perceived to be an attack on your beliefs and values.  I will not criticise oracles or any aspect of Tibetan Buddhism, but I reserve the right to point out the inconsistencies between the Dalai Lama's actions and his public statements.  Hopefully we can leave it there.

Sincerely,

Lineageholder

[thaimonk]

Dear Lineageholder,

1."I understand that your posting this here was a reaction to what you perceived to be an attack on your beliefs and values."  I did not post here as a retaliation. You are wrong in saying so and you need not repeat my motivations for posting this as I have written clearly that it is not what you repeatedly assume.

2. You have the right to see the inconsistencies between the Dalai Lama. And I agree with some in fact. But I would like you to protect the feelings of those who have taken teachings from both the Dalai Lama and others lamas who are still practicing Dorje Shugden.  They are stuck, and rather then make them further feel bad, we must becareful everything we post to protect their situations which is beyond their control. Quoting the commentary from the Kalacakra tantra on the guru's section wouldn't help them as this moment.

As I have the right to examines into any Buddhist organization or Lama involved with the Ban. If I wish to examine deeper into Geshe Kelsang and NKT, I also may do so whether you or anyone else believe it is appropriate or not.

3. You have on many occasions attacked my beliefs systems set out by my Lamas to me. We are the products of our lamas. So it would be good you do not do so. I would appreciate that. Whether you attack my beliefs or not, makes no difference in what I wish to post or speak about. I also gently remind you that you do not need to be involved in any threads you deem not suitable for you.

4. We are on the same side, but your tradition and mine are different. Let's celebrate it and not find reasons for disdain. 

Thank you,

Thaimonk

[Lotus]

Dear Thaimonk

This forum states:

About Dorje Shugden
No New Posts    General Discussion
We promote and value HARMONY. Please do not post anything negative about any lamas, sects, deities or anyone.
Moderators: beggar, DSFriend, Mana, wangzey, TheRedGaruda
   9830 Posts
841 Topics    Last post by thaimonk
in Re: Whats happening with...
on Today at 03:28:55 PM


I would posit that an investigation on this website into Geshe Kelsang and the NKT  (or Lama Yeshe for that matter) looking for anything "negative", whatever your motivation, is against forum rules. (Please see rules above that are copy and pasted from the first page of this forum).

And also unnecessary.  There are other places where you can have this discussion.  A place for "devotees of Dorje Shugden  to congragate harmoniously" is not one of them.   

Interestingly, in the past, I would have expected a moderator to step in by now. 

Yet it continues.  Is there a moderator reading this who can explain how this thread does not contrevene the forum rules? 

Or, is there a moderator reading this at all?  A moderator who is not Mana, of course.





 

[DSFriend]

The discussion on this thread wasn't stopped because it didn't break any house rules.

Thaimonk posted information from a blogsite and anyone else can contribute different views or articles to the topic. It relates to this site in a way that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is a very key lama of our time to have brought the practice of Dorje Shugden to many, courageously.

Many people read this website/forum be it they post in this forum or just quietly reading. Not everyone knows of the decades of history which the senior people here holds.The information we provide or discuss is of benefit to many. 

This website strives to provide information as unbiased as possible...which if you were to read the Articles and Video sections, you will also see information which are against Dalai Lama. Does that mean this website is engaging in Lama bashing? Absolutely NOT. If we engage in Lama bashing, we are indirectly negating our believes in the blessings of the lineage masters, direct violation of guru devotion, thus what kind of practitioner are we.

It is alarming to read information which are negative about ANY lamas because of my own wrong views...
But I appreciate the sharing from everyone in this thread. I am not from NKT, but have high respect for Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.

- peace -

[thaimonk]

Dear Thaimonk

This forum states:

About Dorje Shugden
No New Posts    General Discussion
We promote and value HARMONY. Please do not post anything negative about any lamas, sects, deities or anyone.
Moderators: beggar, DSFriend, Mana, wangzey, TheRedGaruda
   9830 Posts
841 Topics    Last post by thaimonk
in Re: Whats happening with...
on Today at 03:28:55 PM


I would posit that an investigation on this website into Geshe Kelsang and the NKT  (or Lama Yeshe for that matter) looking for anything "negative", whatever your motivation, is against forum rules. (Please see rules above that are copy and pasted from the first page of this forum).

And also unnecessary.  There are other places where you can have this discussion.  A place for "devotees of Dorje Shugden  to congragate harmoniously" is not one of them.   

Interestingly, in the past, I would have expected a moderator to step in by now. 

Yet it continues.  Is there a moderator reading this who can explain how this thread does not contrevene the forum rules? 

Or, is there a moderator reading this at all?  A moderator who is not Mana, of course.

Then never allow any posts on the Dalai Lama, you are allowing the rules to be broken. Highlight this point also if you deem yourself fair. Either no lamas or all lamas.

[hope rainbow]

I know very little about the topic of this thread (and certainly not more than what has been posted).
I justed wanted to share this extract from the Lamrim (Liberation in the palm of your hand), see more specifically the 1st qualification. As far as I could read the posts, TM did abide; and also, I have learned a lot on the topic by reading the posts in reply. I don't think there is a need to start a fire.
I guess the point is: we cannot be honest and impartial when we are taking sides.

THE 5 QUALIFICATIONS OF A DISCIPLE
1   they should be honest and impartial,
   not attached to their own group,
   and not hostile to other groups,
2   they should have the wisdom to know right from wrong,
3   they should yearn for the teachings,
4   they should have great respect for their guru,
5   and they should listen with their minds properly directed, that is, have a sound motivation.

[Ensapa]

I just found out about this thread. I had no idea that this kind of thing was going on and I am shocked to hear someone blackmailing their own lama just to gain control of a Dharma center!!! Threatening the lama!! What world are we living in where lamas are being threatened, blackmailed and cornered by the disciples to do something! No wonder Lama Osel manifested the way he did...no wonder the FPMT centers degenerated...did Lama Yeshe come back to be threatened again? The heavy negative karma from this action....I cannot comprehend as nowhere in history has it been mentioned before that a student threatens the Guru. There is mentioned that one of the masters who showed disrespect when his Guru, a cowherd showed up while he was giving a dharma talk, he denied seeing his Guru and his eyeballs fell out immediately, so what are the incredible consequences of threatening the Guru?!

Lama, please also appreciate the overall consequence of these actions proceeding in the court and also in the Charities Commission. Please realise that there probably will be a public trial of trustees of the Manjushri Institute in addition to other key FPMT people. Please also appreciate that you, Lama, will probably have to go to court to answer questions and possibly even to stand trial. If prosecuted, trustees of the Manjushri Institute will probably go to jail and possibly also other members of the FPMT. And finally, the Charities Commission, through its own investigation, and as a result of the public trial, and possible prosecution of trustees and other FPMT will formally remove the 3 trustees I have mentioned from the Manjushri Institute. Now please appreciate that the FPMT, as a result of this, will be disgraced internationally. The purpose of Tenzin and my coming from England to see you in California was to impress upon you the grave seriousness of the present situation and to obtain your signature on the agreement we presented to you along with the letter from the Institute. This action we have taken has been at the recommendation of the Charities Commission and also of our own attorney in England.

As you said in your tape that you agree with the proposal that we have offered you, then please sign the agreement now to take back to England with us on Monday. If we are unable to return to England with your signature on that agreement, which you have already indicated you agreed with, then please know, Lama, without doubt that civil and legal actions will commence next week.

Lama, I will call you at 10:30 tomorrow morning to hear your response to this communication. I sincerely hope from the very bottom of my heart that you will be willing to sign the agreement, which represents an extremely tolerant, and an extremely peaceful solution to this overall problem under the circumstances. However, if there are further questions that you wish to ask – if there is any way in which Tenzin or myself can be of further assistance to you in understanding the present situation please let us know and we are completely at you disposal from now until the time that we actually have to leave for England, which is Monday afternoon. Please listen to my tape carefully so that you do understand completely what is involved and that there will be no regret in the future if legal actions are, in fact, taken. Good night, Lama.”

For a while, lets not focus on the political drama that this thread has degenerated into earlier, but contemplate on the difficulties that our Gurus have to go through to spread the Dharma and pray that we will NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER be such people and may such people stop their harm and may no more CHIP RODARMORS will ever manifest ever and lets appreciate our own Gurus more. I can only imagine the dismay of Lama Zopa and Lama Yeshe when confronted with this...