What is the process of taking trance of DS?

[DSFriend]

Interesting question regarding from where the deity enters. I've always assumed it enters through the chakra point on top of our heads...

For a trained oracle, my understanding is that no other beings will enter except what is permitted by the lama.

[iloveds]

It has not really been answered by this thread.

Does a person request the Lama to be an oracle?
Does the Lama tell the person they are to be an oracle?
Does DS himself just know the person is oracle material and just take control of the person?

[LosangKhyentse]

It has not really been answered by this thread.

Does a person request the Lama to be an oracle?
Does the Lama tell the person they are to be an oracle?
Does DS himself just know the person is oracle material and just take control of the person?

A person may request to be an oracle.
A Lama may also choose a person and train them up.
Dorje Shugden can also choose and takes the person up to be his oracular voice.

In short, all three methods and combinations of them are possible.

The Oracle of Gaden Choyang Kuten and the current Gameng Kuten were chosen by Dorje Shugden.
The Oracle from Sera residing in Taiwan was chosen by Trijang Rinpoche.
The Oracle of Kalimpong was blessed by Domo Geshe Rinpoche.
The Oracle of Ladakh currently was blessed by Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche.
The Oracle of Simla was blessed by Trijang Rinpoche.
The Oracle of Panglung in Tibet (very famous) was chosen by Kache Marpo.

TK

[Helena]

Thanks so much, TK - I have finally got the answer I was seeking for.

I guess, even if a person requests to be an Oracle - their Lama would know if the person is ready or not, or rather, has the potential or not.

I am assuming that even if the person is under-qualified in many ways - that individual can be trained, right? It is not as if an individual has to be pre-disposed with some gifts or talents in the first place. Although I am sure having any gifts and talents are a real bonus.

I am assuming that as long as the person is determined and trusts their Lama, he or she can be trained to become an Oracle.

I am sorry to be asking so many questions again.

I am just really fascinated and interested in Oracles. I think it is the most beautiful and meaningful profession, after a Dharma Teacher that is.

An Oracle can help so many people and bring about so much benefits.

An individual trapped in samsara can never do much do, no matter what samsaric worldly job they acquire or got hold of.

We seem more trapped in the body we have been given since birth than anything else, because we choose to use our bodies for everything else except spiritual pursuits.

Imagine when our bodies are used as a channel or vehicle for the Divine Enlightened Beings and Buddhas to enter and help others. That to me is the most noble of jobs that anyone can find in samsara. Then our bodies are used for a truly worthy cause. Not just worldly self-serving pursuits.

Again, of course, the most supreme is still the spiritual teacher or Guru who teaches the Dharma.

[LosangKhyentse]

Some ppl not chosen by Dorje Shugden or the Guru may still be an oracle. But that person must get their lama's blessings, permission and training.

To be a good student that practices Lam Rim, holds commitments/samayas, practices and follows the instructions of their lama is much easier than becoming/being an oracle. If one connot be a reliable and honourable student, nevermind being an oracle which is much harder. Some ppl would like the more 'glamorous' tasks, but not realizing it's much more than meets the eye. And if you do every assignment the lama gives you no matter how small and without selectiveness, it automatically leads to something bigger.  Finishing successfully an assignment is a good sign of guru devotion and that you are ready for more and 'bigger'.

If your lama gives you assignments, works or duties and you cannot perform, what makes you think you will follow the intructions to become a oracle which could be alot of physical pain during training for a few years.

In short, you can be an oracle if the lama trains you. The training is very difficult and take up to five years.

TK

[Helena]

Thank you, TK.

What you shared makes perfect logical sense.

I do not think that it is remotely glamourous to be an Oracle. But I do feel that is truly a vocation of great servitude. The Oracle no longer has control of his or her body, but the Enlightened Being will control over it and perhaps, even the Lama as it is always the Lama who directs the Enlightened Being to enter the Oracle's body as I understand.

So, I would think the most important attribute to have and hold as an Oracle would be humility, knowing that you are not here to be served or revered and it is really not you, but what your body as a vehicle is channeling. You are just the shell and nothing more. The real divine force comes from the Lama and the Enlightened Being. A simple human being has no power at all, but the Buddhas and the Lamas have. And coupled with one's sincere desire to want to benefit and help others, I think being an Oracle would be truly powerful and wonderful, in that sense.

I love these words of yours -

If one connot be a reliable and honourable student, nevermind being an oracle which is much harder.


I think if one cannot be a reliable and honourable person, that's really the end for that person. The karma will accumulated and incurred will be horrendous - never mind anything else, actually. This is the basic virtues of humanity.

Thanks again for your kind sharing, TK. I truly appreciate it.

[LosangKhyentse]

Shugden taking trance of the Gameng oracle monk in Shar Gaden (seated on throne). The abbot of Shar Gaden writing down the answers given by Dorje Shugden. Afterwards, all the monks in the monastery will come up to Shugden for blessings. The monks have been recieving instructions from Shugden in this manner for years. The very formation of Shar Gaden was advised by Shugden and blessed by Shugden due to the ban by Dalai Lama. Regularly, Gameng Kuten will take trance of Shugden to answer questions from Shar Gaden. The sangha of Shar Gaden very much trust and rely on this form of communication. Kyabje Zong Rinpoche already predicted to Tenzin Choephel he would become a Shugden oracle while the oracle was in his youth. 

It is the same for Serpom Monastery in Bylakuppe. They consult their oracle monk who reside in Taiwan. The Sera Boompra Kuten has been taking trance for Sera for over three decades since his installment as officlal oracle by the previous Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. If Trijang Rinpche installed him, there's is no doubt of the benefits and authenticity.

This tradition of oracles taking trance has been alive for the last 1,000 years in Tibet.

The current Gameng oracle is Tenzin Choepel a student of the previous Kyabje Zong Rinpoche. Tenzin Choepel lived in Zong Rinpoche's household (labrang) for the most part of his youth. Now Gameng Oracle Tenzin Choephel resides in Indiana, USA. He takes regular trance of Shugden for the many requests/questions that come from around the world.

Personally my business has improved very much since consulting the oracle several times for pujas/practices. I had wanted my business as I travel often to improve in order to be a more support to the dharma. The correct predictions and advice from Shugden via the oracle has made me really financially much better. Where as before I was having many problems financially and my business was very down. Shugden reminded me, if my motivation for business was for dharma is true, then my business would improve and He would help. I always remembered this advice. Now I am better able to sponsor dharma growth as a businessman.

We have an oracle of Shugden in the Far East (Taiwan) and in the West (USA). Very helpful.

TK

[iloveds]

Been awhile since I visited this thread to see how it developed. My what a nice surprise. Questions answered, insight given and to top it off nice pictures of communication with our Protector.

Thank you TK!

Its quite surreal to those of us from the outside looking in.

To the people in this picture its just a normal days Dharma work. I love how the Abbot is seated and writing the answers to serious questions that decide the future paths of so many thousands if not millions of people. You never know.

Sad after reading the other thread regarding "Rime" (unification of sects)  that this; link, tradition, communion, collaboration, partnership - is in effect being targeted to be wiped of the face of the planet.

May that never come to pass.
May we grow as dharma practitioners
May truth be told

[Helena]

May there be a new generation of DS Oracles so that this wonderful tradition continues and remains.

Thank you for taking the time to share more, TK.

No matter how advanced the future will look like and evolve into, this Oracle tradition is something that's precious and important to the Gelug Lineage. The world can never become too advanced for an Oracle to become obsolete.

[DSFriend]

Gosh, this forum has so much  content and the knowledge shared by the forum participants are extremely enriching.

I had forgotten about this thread and came across this post while browsing in the forum.

It is as refreshing and enriching as when i first read it.  I hope one day, I will be qualified to receive higher teachings and practices and do something good with my life!

Hope you guys are having a good weekend and thank you for all your generous sharing on this site.

Prior to Official Recoginition as Oracle:

The Training of the selected individual.


1. Migtseyma full length retreat (extensive form) minimum 1,000,000 mantras.
2. Full lengh Yamantaka retreat/fire puja.
3. Full length Hayagriva retreat/fire puja (optional)
4. full length Dorje Shugden retreat/fire puja
5. Tsagoo (opening of Channels and meridians by a Lama) (Dagom Rinpoche did tsagoo for the oracle of Gaden. Trijang Rinpoche performed tsagoo on Sera's current oracle. Dungkar Oracle had tsagoo done by the previous Domo Geshe Rinpoche)
6. Restricted diet free from meat, eggs, alcohol, garlic, smoking (at least during training). Both monk and lay persons may become oracles.

The above is done over and again depending on the capacity of the oracle. Some can take trance faster, some take more time.  Some can take trance within a year, some five. It is dependent on the oracle. The whole procedure is overseen by a Lama from beginning to full completion of training.

After the Oracle is trained and ready. Then the oracle is officially recognized by the Monastic officials.



Approximate Trance procedure:

1. Oracle will be requested to take trance officially. Can be from lay officials, High lamas, Monastic officials, Sangha, lay persons, etc.
2. The throne area is set up with the oracle clothes. The area purified with Sang Kampa/juniper powder incense.
3. Long horns blown to announce the arrival of the Great King Dorje Shugen who will enter the oracle that particular day.
4. Oracle arrives. Dresses. Makes Serkym offerings of golden drink. Takes his place on the throne among the assembly.
5. Monks, invocation master and ritual assistants will recite:
  A. Gaden Hlagyema
  B. Self Generation of Yamantaka
  C. Purification of environment (from Shugden Kangsol)
  D. Generation of Shugden, Palace and environment (kangsol)
  E. Actual invocation of King Dorje Shugden, at which time the oracle will have clear visualization of himself as Yamantaka within the divine palace in order to 'protect' his meridians and enhance the entry of King of Dorje Shugden into his awaiting oracular vessel.(kangsol)
  F. Shugden Enters
  G. The sponsors, officials, guests will offer tea to Shugden, then if available offer tsok directly to Shugden.
  H.  Khatas, offerings, questions are offered up to Shugden which will be answered one by one.
Answers recorded by a trained scribe. Later answers will be checked and sealed by the office of the oracle and given.
  I.  Prophecies, answers, advice that are general will be read out to the sangha.
  J. Final offering of tea, and Shugden will take leave of his oracle.


The above is an approximation of the procedures, sometimes there are variations depending on the situation, crowd, oracle and lama.

TK

[WisdomBeing]

I was asked whether there has been any western research/documentation on an oracle taking trance of a Protector. I had said that I didn't know but that it's unlikely as is it a private, sacred ceremony that cannot be recorded with scientific instruments.

I very much wish to see a Dorje Shugden oracle in real life (as opposed to youtube videos) one day. I am sure it will be a tremendous occasion. I'd just like to ask though - if the Lamas are considered "higher" than the Protectors, surely the Lamas would not need to consult the oracles? The Lamas would be able to answer questions through their own clairvoyance? Eg the Dalai Lama would not need to consult Nechung especially, who is an unenlightened protector and thus not reliable (and proven to be not reliable with regards to the Dalai Lama's exodus from Tibet and the independence of Tibet!)

Please do share your opinions.

[WoselTenzin]

I'd just like to ask though - if the Lamas are considered "higher" than the Protectors, surely the Lamas would not need to consult the oracles? The Lamas would be able to answer questions through their own clairvoyance? Eg the Dalai Lama would not need to consult Nechung especially, who is an unenlightened protector and thus not reliable (and proven to be not reliable with regards to the Dalai Lama's exodus from Tibet and the independence of Tibet!)

Please do share your opinions.

Dear WB,
I have asked this question myself and I was told that sometimes Lama do consult oracles although they do know the answer themselves.  This is because many ordinary people due to lack of understanding have more faith in the protector than the Lama.  They tend to think that the protector is god whereas the Lama, wise no doubt is still just a man. (They do not know that the protector in fact takes instructions from a qualified Lama) Therefore, should the protector gives any advice, they are more likely to follow. In such cases, for the benefit of people who do not know better, they Lama still consults the oracle.  For people who have faith in the Lama, the Lama's advice would be sufficient and there is no need to consult the oracle.

However, the part I still do not get is why would High Lamas in the monastery consult the oracle.  I am sure the monks who are trained in Dharma would understand that the advice of the Lama would be enough. What is even more puzzling is why would Dalai Lama, the emanation of Avalokiteshvara himself consult Nechung, an enlightened protector?  The question of faith here I think is not the issue since many people already have great faith in Dalai Lama as Avalokiteshvara himself and therefore do not need any convincing if the advice was given by Dalai Lama.

I am still puzzled.... Can anyone explain?

[DSFriend]

Dear Wosel Tenzin

I do not claim to have the answers and have these question in mind also. However, the following are thoughts I have to share :

1. It is the compassion of Enlightened beings, in this case Dorje Shugden allowing us to have direct contact with him through a suitable vessel such as a trained Kuten. As we cannot see celestial beings/enlightened beings, through the oracle, Dorje Shugden teach, blesses, gives advice, connect with us and manifests in such a way to show us that he is close to practitioners to guide us on the path.

2. Beings who use their lives to be trained as oracles gain tremendous merits. Just look at the extensive retreats the candidate will need to go thru in order to be a suitable vessel.

3. From what i understand, high lamas do not depend on oracles however, they do work together to accomplish the lama's work quicker. One of the reasons for this partnership is that the compassionate high beings took on the nirmanakaya form/tulkus, and along with it, certain "limitations" due to composition of the human body. This does not mean that their mind is defiled like ours. Example,  when tulkus are born, they have the capacity to be trained much quicker than others, however, they still need to be "retrained". Therefore, enlightened beings manifests to help us as teachers, via oracles, as animate and inanimate objects etc...

Please correct me if any of what i have shared above is incorrect as I seek to know the answers also.

[DharmaDefender]

Some ppl not chosen by Dorje Shugden or the Guru may still be an oracle. But that person must get their lama's blessings, permission and training.

To be a good student that practices Lam Rim, holds commitments/samayas, practices and follows the instructions of their lama is much easier than becoming/being an oracle. If one connot be a reliable and honourable student, nevermind being an oracle which is much harder. Some ppl would like the more 'glamorous' tasks, but not realizing it's much more than meets the eye. And if you do every assignment the lama gives you no matter how small and without selectiveness, it automatically leads to something bigger.  Finishing successfully an assignment is a good sign of guru devotion and that you are ready for more and 'bigger'.

If your lama gives you assignments, works or duties and you cannot perform, what makes you think you will follow the intructions to become a oracle which could be alot of physical pain during training for a few years.

In short, you can be an oracle if the lama trains you. The training is very difficult and take up to five years.

TK

Was watching some YouTube videos on trances at the monasteries and all, and it got me thinking about the process of taking trance. I wanted to resurrect this post because I found it extremely useful in broadening my understanding of oracles.

I once heard someone describe the process of taking trance as being like squashing a mountain through the eye of a needle. Taking into account the pain of the trance and the intensity of the trainings, you have to see that oracles arent ordinary monks, being so willing to go the extra mile and dedicate their human bodies to becoming a vessel for the deities.

What do the rest of us use our bodies for? Eating, sleeping, copulating, defecating. We come and go, and spend our lives as animals. Having been so habituated into that for so many lifetimes, Im basically just amazed as how oracles can break this cycle of lifetimes to do something that benefits others so greatly. Imagine how pure they have to be, to become a vessel for a Buddha!!

[samayakeeper]

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/dharma-readings/becoming-a-divine-messenger-how-oracles-are-created/

The above article and the two threads mentioned are full of information that have now answered many of my questions which I did not have the opportunity to ask in the past. Thank you to the people who wrote the article, to those who posted on both threads and to those who participated on the threads. I hope to revive this post for the benefit of new visitors to this forum.

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1203.0