Ex Abbots expelled/Lamas Targetted

[DSFriend]

just curious - when Tsongkhapa set up the Gelugpa school - was there resistance to a new school or tradition of Buddhism?

Though i guess there was no controversy, unlike Dorje Shugden today.

With a belief in impermanence though, i do think that whatever is most conducive for Tsongkhapa's tradition to spread - whether by a new Dorje Shugden lineage or not - Dorje Shugden will create the causes for it to manifest...

WisdomBeing,
You brought up a very interesting question - " was there resistance to a new school or tradition.."

As we know, Je Tsongkhapa took the three old Kadampa lineages by the Great Atisha, and combined them into one stream which later became the Gelug tradition. This lineage is held by the Ganden Tripas (throne holders) or spiritual heads, with the Dalai Lama holding a key role.

There has always been political conflicts between the four traditions for growth and power over Tibet. Sakya Pandita reunited Tibet. However, Altan Khan gave the title "Dalai" to a Gelugpa. Gushri Khan enthrones the 5th Dalai Lama as temporal ruler of Tibet. Gelugpa became the dominant lineage in Central Tibet. Monasteries of other traditions such as Phegyeling originally Kagyu were converted or annexed in the case of Jonang.

There were resistance towards the Gelug lineage, and it was via what seemed to be political means, championed by no other than the Dalai Lama as the head of TIbet to ensure growth.

Dalai Lama's incarnations seems to be so intermingled with politics...in this incarnation, he is still being accused of using politics, for imposing ridiculous ban.

However, the more I research and read about the works of the Dalai Lama, I find his works extraordinary and unconventional. Though it seems to come across as "worldy, in humane, manipulative" but it has somehow brought about much growth for Buddha Dharma.

Just look at where Tibetan Buddhism is today. What do you make out of all these?

[daka]

It is really sad and a sure sign of our degenerate times! Who would imagine disciples singling out their Gurus to be expelled from the monastery. It sounds almost like the cultural revolution of the China.

Very sad to read about this, but I still find it very hard to digest all these story/news, doesn't sound logic at all.

How am I supposed to relate "sign of degenerate times", "broken samaya", "create schism in the Sangha" etc etc to HH Dalai Lama? To many ordinary people who are very new to Buddhism, just like me, His Holiness almost equals to Tibetan Buddhism, He is a buddhist icon, He represents compassion, wisdom, peace...But what He has been doing now doesn't show all these qualities.

Sorry if I sound rude, but it just doesn't make sense at all to me. How can a living buddha who stresses so much on wisdom and compassion let such things happen? Not only that, He even "plays" an important role behind the whole drama. I think any person with average IQ would know that this could only bring harm, not only to his own reputation and Tibetan Buddhism, but the whole Tibetan community as well.

What is His real purpose? I just can't believe that He is actually threatened by the so called "Dorje Shugden is a threat to the Dalai Lama" things.

[DSFriend]

It is really sad and a sure sign of our degenerate times! Who would imagine disciples singling out their Gurus to be expelled from the monastery. It sounds almost like the cultural revolution of the China.

Very sad to read about this, but I still find it very hard to digest all these story/news, doesn't sound logic at all.

How am I supposed to relate "sign of degenerate times", "broken samaya", "create schism in the Sangha" etc etc to HH Dalai Lama? To many ordinary people who are very new to Buddhism, just like me, His Holiness almost equals to Tibetan Buddhism, He is a buddhist icon, He represents compassion, wisdom, peace...But what He has been doing now doesn't show all these qualities.

Sorry if I sound rude, but it just doesn't make sense at all to me. How can a living buddha who stresses so much on wisdom and compassion let such things happen? Not only that, He even "plays" an important role behind the whole drama. I think any person with average IQ would know that this could only bring harm, not only to his own reputation and Tibetan Buddhism, but the whole Tibetan community as well.

What is His real purpose? I just can't believe that He is actually threatened by the so called "Dorje Shugden is a threat to the Dalai Lama" things.

Dear Daka

Welcome to Dorjeshugden.com.

Just like you, I was devastated and felt confused the more I learn about everything else which surrounds Tibetan Buddhism.

It wasn't until I stumbled on this website that I started to gather more information to fuel a new perspective... I find this website and forum to be an oasis and appreciates very much that the information provided is non-biased.

There is a strong house rule also which disallow lama bashing. There's much respect towards each other and also all the lamas.

Do take sometime to read through this forum.

My wish is that in time, you will make your own views, views which are peaceful, empowering you on your spiritual journey, and see that all the lineage masters are one in bringing liberation to us.

best wishes

[pgdharma]

It is such a shame that  high lamas are being dispelled by students. Where is the practice of Guru Devotion? What happened to samaya? Why didn't HH Dalai Lama said or take any actions? Is it destined and planned this way for a new practice to come about?

With more and more pro-ds being expelled out of monasteries, they will definitely need a place to practice.For that, we can now see that more and more DS monasteries are being built to cater to influx of DS practictioners.

May this be the beginning of a new lineage - DS lineage!

[Mana]

Strangely in a twist of events, the Dalai Lama was not happy this Gyurme Kensur Rinpoche was expelled from Gaden Jangtze Monastery due to his suspected affiliations with Shugden. The abbot of Gaden Jangtze expelled him to please the Dalai Lama.

Mana

[WisdomBeing]

If the Dalai Lama was not happy with the ex-Abbot being expelled, why didn’t he stop it? I find this rather contradictory. If the Dalai Lama had stopped the expulsion, then it would have sent a strong signal to the Tibetan community that just because the Dalai Lama made a comment like that, it doesn’t necessarily mean that he is accusing anyone or hinting at anything. This would stop the unhealthy atmosphere of paranoia and sycophancy which is currently prevalent in the Tibetan monastic institutions. All it takes is for the Dalai Lama to speak up.

[vajratruth]

The abbot of Jangtze was so frightened and eager to please the Dalai Lama in any way he can he expelled Gyume Kensur on that basis alone.  Dalai Lama could have stopped the expulsion easily, but he didn't. A noteworthy point is the Gyume Kensur is the Guru of the Abbot of Jangtze. Disciples have to expel Gurus these days in such political uncertainty. Gyume Kensur continues to reside in France.


TK

Disciples expelling Gurus..........What an era we are living in!!! Perhaps the abbot of Jangtse would like to re-write the "50 stanzes of Guru Devotion"

It is extremely sad that being politically right has so much power over spiritual righteousness. The abbott of Jangtze is like a shoeshine boy, to me, it is severe degeneration.

I was just thinking about that.

I mean Guru Devotion is the very cornerstone of proper practice and that is a well known fact every where we look.
Milarepa advised us to try and see the Guru in his actual dharmakaya aspect. Je Tsongkhapa himself tells us in no uncertain terms that the door to great bliss and higher attainments is through the cultivation of Guru Devotion.

Even Kyabje Lama Zopa advocates guru devotion:

"...If you have already made a Dharma connection with such teachers and you criticize them or give them up, that’s totally incorrect; that’s opposite to lam-rim practice. The lam-rim, sutra and tantra teachings all explain how to practice guru devotion so that we can avoid creating such heavy negative karmas as criticizing our gurus. It’s for our benefit. Since we disciples want profit, not loss, since we aspire to achieve the highest profit, enlightenment, the complete qualities of cessation and realization, it is crucial to know how to practice guru devotion..."

I cannot help but notice that the monks and Lamas who are being persecuted for not betraying DS, are the ones actually practicing Guru Devotion and these are high Lamas well recognized for their attainments. Whereas the anti Shugden-ites seem to have abandoned the very foundation of all they have learned. If you remove devotion to your Guru, you remove the very foundation of your knowledge and attainments. You are in fact saying: "everything I have learned have been taught by someone that I do not trust. Doesn't that make your attainments and realizations also untrustworthy?

It appears to me that not only have these anti DS people made an issue out of the practice of a great Dharma Protector, they are also making an issue out of Guru Devotion. Nothing is sacred to them any longer.

Here is an example of one of them Lama Zopa inserting his own caveat into the 50 Verses Of Guru Devotion that has been loyally adhered without any attempts to tamper with it, until now.

 "I want to specify one extra point, on the basis of the usual examination [ of the Guru] that is explained in the teachings. I want to add that, if you are making a new Dharma connection with a teacher, you should examine to make sure that that teacher is not someone who is against His Holiness Dalai Lama with respect to the practice of what’s called döl-gyäl, the protector Shugden. Make sure that that person does not do the practice. These days, that’s an extra analysis you should make. In that way, you’ll avoid problems in future..." [written in April 2001, ironically entitled Guru Devotion and His Holiness The Dalai Lama]

If DS is an evil spirit, how come all the wrong doings, all the betrayals, all the breaking of sworn oaths, all the inflicting of pain and sufferings, all the violence have been perpetrated  by the anti DS people.

The more I look at it, one does not need to go into very deep analysis of Dorje Shugden to see the fruits of this practice. Those who practice Dorje  Shugden also practice the upholding of Lama Tsongkhapa's Dharma (and that is upholding the dharma of Chenrezig; Manjushri and Vajrapani). Those who practice Dor je Shugden FOR SURE practice Guru Devotion as delivered by the Fifty Verses Of Guru Devotion, a teaching given by Vajradhara himself and summarized by Ashvagosha.

In his Uttaratantra, Maitreya Buddha said one can only realize Emptiness when one has fervert regard and gret respect for the Guru.

The good thing I see in this DS ban is that the darker the shadows that fall on the practitioners of Dorje Shugden, the brighter Dorje Shugden shines, simply by maintaining the Buddha's dharma.

[dondrup]

How could a disciple expel his guru from a monastery as in the case of Gyume Kensur who is the Guru of the Abbot of Jangtze?  His Holiness Dalai Lama (HHDL) could have prevented the expulsion of Gyume Kensur but he hasn’t.
 
HHDL’s statement of tulkus and lamas who played two faces is also very disturbing.  How could all these tulkus and lamas be wrong to continue their practices in secret? How could these tulkus and lamas abandon the sacred DS practices which they had received from their gurus?
 
The ban had prevented the freedom to practise DS openly without any fear for so long.  Nothing seems to indicate the CTA (Central Tibetan Administration) or HHDL would lift the ban.  In fact the ban gives rise to further sufferings as in this case of abbots being dispelled.
 
Perhaps the solution to all these restrictions is to form new schools, lineages or monasteries of DS practitioners.  It is high time all DS practitioners – tulkus, lamas, lineage holders, lay and ordained practitioners - stay united and come out in the open bravely and create the change.   We need to initiate this change quickly and stop the confusion and sufferings that have arisen since the ban. 
 
The only opponents are the ignorant anti-shugdenites, CTA and HHDL which is small compared to the many DS practitioners out there in the World today.  The ban has no basis to sustain its continuity.  Sooner or later the ban will lose its power as the DS practice is based on an authentic source, lineage, valid and logical reasoning.  The truth will always prevail. 
 
Many political parties in the World today had collapsed due to their inabilities to have the welfare of their people in mind.  If CTA continues to ban and suppress DS practice which brings no harm but only benefits to the Tibetan people, sooner or later CTA will collapse under its own doing.

[michaela]

Upon reading the story, I am confused about two things.  Believing that HHDL is an enlightened beings, why would he did not say anything when a student expelled his guru from the monastery.  It violated to my knowledge:
-  the very principle of guru devotion as stated in the 50 verses of Guru Devotion
-  Bodhisattva vows.

Understood that the more DS practice is surpressed, the more it shines forth.  But why this has to be done through the means of encouraging a disciple expelling his own Guru? 

[WisdomBeing]

Since the beginning of the ban, the Dalai Lama has continuously exhibited seemingly self sabotage:

1.   his irrational condemnation of  Dorje Shugden without explanation of its logic.
2.   instituting the ban and forcing monks to stop a practice given by their teachers.
3.   turning a blind eye to the ostracisation of DS practitioners – lay and Sangha – throughout the Tibetan refugee community.
4.   Saying his Teachers are wrong. This contradicts the very core of Tibetan Buddhism.
5.   Saying HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche can practise Dorje Shugden. If Dorje Shugden is evil, shortens the Dalai Lama’s life and prevents the independence of Tibet, why can Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche do the practice?
6.   Forcing monks to swear in at the monasteries when swearing in is not permitted.
7.   Forcing monks to vote in the red/yellow stick referendum which was not democratic at all.
8.   Prohibiting Dorje Shugden practitioners from attending his teachings although people from other religions and even Satanic worshippers are allowed to attend. Only Dorje Shugden practitioners are not.

All this erratic and contradictory behaviour serves the purpose of letting people who are intelligent think a bit deeper. If the Dalai Lama IS Avalokiteshvara, why is he doing all this? There must be a certain agenda.

Whether we agree with the agenda hypothesis or not, it does not harm to not think badly about the Dalai Lama and highlight these inconsistencies consistently to others so they can consider other possibilities about Dorje Shugden also.

[Ensapa]

To me, the ban did nothing more than expose the stupidity and backwaterness of the Tibetan people. The reasonings given on HHDL's website regarding the ban is very, very weak, inconsistent and warped, so to speak. He claims that the 5th Dalai Lama claims that Dorje Shugden is evil but he completely skipped the part where the 5th Dalai lama wrote prayers and even made a statue to Dorje Shugden. Also quoted were weak and unverifiable accounts of Dorje Shugden being "evil". That seems to be the prevalent them in Tibetan history.

It is horrifying to see students expelling their teachers from the monastery, all because of wanting to tow in line to be politically correct. Again, this issue isnt really about Dharma practice but rather being politically aligned to the Dalai Lama. HHDL practices teachings from other lineages, which Dorje Shugden would have warned him against which is probably why he banned Dorje Shugden in the first place. It seems that there are many things that the current incarnation of HHDL is doing that is not standard of Gelugpa practice...but the result of the ban is this much suffering and even expulsion of such great masters from monasteries.....the effects of the negative karma must be huge and HHDL has said that he will absorb them all.

I am hoping that this is all temporary, and that it really has a higher purpose.

But then again, we have Shar Ganden and Serpom now!! And they will be bigger and much more efficient compared to the monasteries who cut off their lineage Gurus, lineage practice, and expunge their senior practitioners just to be politically correct. Their growth will be slowed down as a result of their actions.

[beggar]

To me, the ban did nothing more than expose the stupidity and backwaterness of the Tibetan people. The reasonings given on HHDL's website regarding the ban is very, very weak, inconsistent and warped, so to speak.

Ensapa, please be careful of the words that you use. While many may agree with you, this forum is not a place to launch any personal attacks on groups of people, no matter what we may think of them personally.

However, I do understand what you are trying to say. Unfortunately, although the Tibetans are so often praised for their religion - and of course, there is much to praise - religion has taken over and become one with secular matters, making it very difficult for the current governments and people to function on a truly practical, secular level. This debate about the secular / religious has been longstanding for nations throughout the world. Many learnt to separate the two many centuries ago. Unfortunately, as such an isolated country, the Tibetans didn't need to do this until they were literally forced out of their country. Now, they are suffering the after-effects of integrating religion into secular matters too strongly.

This is true not just in the case of this ban, but in many aspects across the people and community. Look at education, for example. So many tibetan youths these days do not have the same educational or career opportunities as their peers in other more developed countries. As a country and people who have focused so much and so solely on religion, they have neglected other much needed areas, such as education. A clear example: apart from religious figures, have we heard of any famous Tibetans around the world? Are they known for their contributions in arts, sciences, politics etc? Hardly. It is not their fault. It's that the government and leaders do not provide opportunities for their young people do climb further. It is a well known fact that many young Tibetans do very little - they finish school and then do little other than loaf about, drinking and just partying their days away. You only need to go to Tibetan settlements like Manjukatilnath in Delhi or even McCleod Ganj in Dharamsala to see that this is sadly true.

The government needs to be much clearer in separating church from state, and focusing on providing better opportunities and welfare for their people. Only then will people start to look at Tibetans and perhaps eventually even support them in whatever they are doing - be it their religious practices or even their fight for independence. For right now, why would anyone listen to them and their appeals? Sadly, they have no results to show for whatever they are fighting for. I mean no disrespect. This is what I observe as an outsider and a non-Tibetan. There needs to be much clearer distinctions between their religious policies and other secular affairs.

[Ensapa]

Ensapa, please be careful of the words that you use. While many may agree with you, this forum is not a place to launch any personal attacks on groups of people, no matter what we may think of them personally.

However, I do understand what you are trying to say. Unfortunately, although the Tibetans are so often praised for their religion - and of course, there is much to praise - religion has taken over and become one with secular matters, making it very difficult for the current governments and people to function on a truly practical, secular level. This debate about the secular / religious has been longstanding for nations throughout the world. Many learnt to separate the two many centuries ago. Unfortunately, as such an isolated country, the Tibetans didn't need to do this until they were literally forced out of their country. Now, they are suffering the after-effects of integrating religion into secular matters too strongly.

This is true not just in the case of this ban, but in many aspects across the people and community. Look at education, for example. So many tibetan youths these days do not have the same educational or career opportunities as their peers in other more developed countries. As a country and people who have focused so much and so solely on religion, they have neglected other much needed areas, such as education. A clear example: apart from religious figures, have we heard of any famous Tibetans around the world? Are they known for their contributions in arts, sciences, politics etc? Hardly. It is not their fault. It's that the government and leaders do not provide opportunities for their young people do climb further. It is a well known fact that many young Tibetans do very little - they finish school and then do little other than loaf about, drinking and just partying their days away. You only need to go to Tibetan settlements like Manjukatilnath in Delhi or even McCleod Ganj in Dharamsala to see that this is sadly true.

The government needs to be much clearer in separating church from state, and focusing on providing better opportunities and welfare for their people. Only then will people start to look at Tibetans and perhaps eventually even support them in whatever they are doing - be it their religious practices or even their fight for independence. For right now, why would anyone listen to them and their appeals? Sadly, they have no results to show for whatever they are fighting for. I mean no disrespect. This is what I observe as an outsider and a non-Tibetan. There needs to be much clearer distinctions between their religious policies and other secular affairs.

Hi Beggar, I dont think reiterating what the Tibetans actually do admit and think about themselves as launching a personal attack haha. Most tibetans themselves believe that their ancestors came from the copulation between the monkey which was Avalokiteshvara's emanation and also a female rock ogress, and thus possess the kindess and soft heartedness of Avalokiteshvara and the stubbornness and ferocity of the orgress, and they are proud of that. I am not sure how is it still now but from what I heard the last time, they are.

If CTA is successful, then they would be the world's first buddhist government to ever rule and govern a country and set a good example to other countries that Buddhist principles do work and they are realistic. That would be fantastic for the growth of the Dharma. From how I see it, there is no need for the separation of religion and government if the government follows Buddhist principles, like for example operating on the law of karma and providing properly for the needs of the people as expected of governments, while picking up what is good from other governments. Then CTA can change to Shambala on earth. That is one thing that I wish I would see. HHDL said just not to practice, not to go on a witchhunt.....

[kris]

It is indeed very sad to hear what Abbot did to his Guru Gyume Kensur Rinpoche just to please HH Dalai Lama because of "political correctness", and even more sad HH Dalai Lama didn't stop it.

Indeed this whole ban of Dorje Shugden has created a lot of doubts in people's mind especially on the subject of guru devotion. If someone who is highly attained as HH Dalai can say that his guru is wrong for practicing Dorje Shugden, then does it mean my Guru can be wrong too? How can we know?

But at least, there is no "bad" things happen to Shar Gaden during HH Dalai Lama's visit..

[Barzin]

revisiting this post, it is amazing how things have improved from what was discussed earlier.  There is lesser protest, lesser news on the ban.. and not as bad as the situation mentioned in the beginning of the post.  Yes, the swearing in, the segregation, the unfairness in treating Dorje Shugden practitioners still stand.  But it is not as violent as it sounded before...  In Fact, if you read through the back dated posts, and comparing the situation now... Things are improving.

If within a one year, things can mellow down quite a bit, it is a clear bright light at the end of the tunnel.  Which means the ban can be lifted sooner.  But we have to do our part too.  It is not just for our own individual practice but to preserve dharma as a whole in fact it isn't just for Gelug.  Everything happens for a reason, if people can only see that it is not just about a spirit going against His Holiness The Dalai Lama but to spread dharma as a whole.

I am proud to be a Gelug, proud of the protector, proud to be a part to contribute in spreading the dharma even though now it might seemed impossible while the ban is still on.  But just one year ago, the practitioners were angry, dismay, disappointed, sad etc... But look how the movement has spread in to different parts of the world like China, Singapore etc etc.

I think we should push to do our part in helping to lift the ban because we can not let the Lamas, the monks, our fellow practitioners' sacrifices pour down in drain.