The 5th and the 14th's change of views about Dorje Shugden

[DSFriend]

This article has been in this website for awhile now. I've just reread it recently and thought of sharing some thoughts about it :

Dorje Shugden -  http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=6541

Fifth Dalai Lama initially mistook Dorje Shugden for a harmful and vengeful spirit of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, who was a rival to the Great Fifth and his GOVERNMENT. The 5th Dalai Lama tried to subdue the spirit but failed after a number of attempts. That was when The Great Fifth realised and praised Dorje Shugden as a Buddha.

Let's fast forward to the 21st century... I have not come across any attempts by the 14th Dalai Lama to subdue this spirit again but much has happened and is still ongoing to suppress Dorje Shugden and ban his practice. The reason for this is not that different from the time of The Great 5th. It is not rivalry, but a threat instead to the 14th Dalai Lama's life and success of his GOVERNMENT to gain back a lost nation.

Now, The 14th Dalai Lama has been suppressing Dorje Shugden but his practice has been growing instead. Now, will we receive any change of proclamation from the 14th Dalai Lama regarding Dorje Shugden just like how the Great 5th changed his proclamation?

The way I see it, either Dalai Lama is going to officially make a statement or not about Dorje Shugden, this practice is still growing and benefitting so many throughout the world.

[Zach]

And if there is no offical statement ? Only more persecution...How many lifetimes will it take for him to realize he's wrong. 
Oh by the way perhapes people should start forwarding requests to the TGIE that the Dalai lama subdue Dorje shugden, Reluctence to do so would suggest something interesting.

[Vajraprotector]

And if there is no offical statement ? Only more persecution...How many lifetimes will it take for him to realize he's wrong. 
Oh by the way perhapes people should start forwarding requests to the TGIE that the Dalai lama subdue Dorje shugden, Reluctence to do so would suggest something interesting.

I think that is a good idea - to request TGIE and said that instead of trying to stop the Shugden practitioners and the Shugden lamas all over the world promoting Shugden, why not just kill the "evil spirit" and that will be the end. I wonder what will they say?   

[WisdomBeing]

And if there is no offical statement ? Only more persecution...How many lifetimes will it take for him to realize he's wrong. 
Oh by the way perhapes people should start forwarding requests to the TGIE that the Dalai lama subdue Dorje shugden, Reluctence to do so would suggest something interesting.

I think that is a good idea - to request TGIE and said that instead of trying to stop the Shugden practitioners and the Shugden lamas all over the world promoting Shugden, why not just kill the "evil spirit" and that will be the end. I wonder what will they say?   

Excellent suggestion, VajraProtector!! Perhaps we can submit a petition with all the questions we need answers to which have been raised here in this very website, i.e. why not subdue Shugden if he's an evil spirit, why do Shugden practitioners keep reincarnating back, why did the Dalai Lama take so long to realize Shugden is an evil spirit (especially as the Dalai Lama is Chenrezig and would have known, right) etc etc.

[beggar]

I do believe that there have also been recent attempts to "exorcise" and "destroy" this "spirit".

In the late 90s, the TGIE ordered a Hayagriva Tamdrin to be performed in Sera (If I'm not mistaken) to exorcise Dorje Shugden. Looks like it failed though didn't it.....

It's interesting that while the 5th Dalai Lama recognised the failed attempts to subdue Dorje Shugden, and proclaimed to be a Protector instead. Fast forward to now - despite failed attempts to "subdue" this spirit, there is no retraction on what is said nor any explanation. Just silence???

One of the "supporting" evidence that the DL's side use against Dorje Shugden is that rituals were done in the past (during 5th DL's time, i think) to exorcise Dorje Shugden and witnesses apparently even claimed to smell the smell of burning flesh, which indicates that he had been burned, killed and destroyed.

If that really is the case, then what are they still so afraid about? If this spirit is dead, why is there a ban on him?

[DSFriend]

Talking about killing Dorje Shugden...I just came across this article :

RIP Dorje Shugden?
Read the complete article here -->  http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=2676

“In 1669, the earth-bird year, activities to pacify the spirit were performed with the construction of a new house and the placing of (relevant) articles, but to no avail. In the beginning of 1674, the wood-tiger year, and 1675, the wood-rabbit year, two specifically targeted rituals were performed and finally, at the end of 1675, the wood-rabbit year, seven groups of practitioners performed fire rituals and destroyed it forever.”

So, back in the 17th century, TGIE actually believes Dorje Shugden has been destroyed. If he's already been destroyed, than who is TGIE banning?? 

What I know is practitioners of Dorje Shugden are increasing in numbers all over the world. There must be results for this growth?! 

[Helena]

Or may be TGIE meant that they are banning the practice of Dorje Shugden and not Dorje Shugden itself because they have already destroyed Dorje Shugden back in 1675???

Amazing how much documentation and records can be changed FOREVER, more like it!

I think the case of Dorje Shugden must truly be the one and only issue that highlights in plain sight, LOUD and Clear, how wrong TGIE has been in all this time.

Everything and everyone are coming back to literally haunt the TGIE! From High Lamas who practice Dorje Shugden, to all other Shugdenpas all over the world and its ever increasing numbers of practitioners and monasteries - but the best and my favourite of all is the RETURN OF TULKU DRAKPA GYELTSEN.

[Ensapa]

Talking about killing Dorje Shugden...I just came across this article :

RIP Dorje Shugden?
Read the complete article here -->  http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=2676

“In 1669, the earth-bird year, activities to pacify the spirit were performed with the construction of a new house and the placing of (relevant) articles, but to no avail. In the beginning of 1674, the wood-tiger year, and 1675, the wood-rabbit year, two specifically targeted rituals were performed and finally, at the end of 1675, the wood-rabbit year, seven groups of practitioners performed fire rituals and destroyed it forever.”

So, back in the 17th century, TGIE actually believes Dorje Shugden has been destroyed. If he's already been destroyed, than who is TGIE banning?? 

What I know is practitioners of Dorje Shugden are increasing in numbers all over the world. There must be results for this growth?!

This is quite hilarious: if Dorje Shugden was destroyed back then, then who was it that gave accurate predictions and arrangements to the Dalai Lama's escape from Tibet into India when "Nechung" failed? Who is taking trance? Who has been compassionately warning the Lamas who would bring misunderstandings and misfortunes to their followers to stop so that less people will be led astray? (read: the yellow book translates these as threats, but if you ask me, I do not think Zemey Rinpoche would use such a word. The person who transcribed/translated it would be obviously at fault here.) if not Dorje Shugden himself? there is no way that they have destroyed Dorje Shugden. they failed to do that and the 5th Dalai Lama himself has admitted that he failed and thus he composed a prayer to appease Dorje Shugden (what the Dalai Lama camp believes anyway, the real reason was that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha. How does one destroy or exorcise a Buddha?)

If I recall correctly, even during recent times, someone did try to exorcise Dorje Shugden. It was Drepung monastery. A day after the ritual was performed, the Dorje Shugden oracle took trance and said that he does not have the karma to be destroyed. I am sure that made those monks who did the ritual to destroy Dorje Shugden look completely stupid in more ways than one. So CTA, wake up and smell the coffee. Try as you may, but you cannot destroy a Buddha.

[shugdenpromoter]

Fifth Dalai Lama initially mistook Dorje Shugden for a harmful and vengeful spirit of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, who was a rival to the Great Fifth and his GOVERNMENT. The 5th Dalai Lama tried to subdue the spirit but failed after a number of attempts. That was when The Great Fifth realised and praised Dorje Shugden as a Buddha.

I am sure at that time during the 5th Dalai Lama time, there were a lot of work done for Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen people to clear the name of their lama.

And now during the 14th Dalai Lama time, there are still a lot of work done to lift the ban.  It does not make sense that the 14th Dalai Lama can write prayers to Dorje Shugden and then after that ban this protector.

And we are all waiting anxiously for the 14th Dalai Lama to announce lifting of the ban.

[Ensapa]

I have found the source where it says that there was a recent attempt to 'destroy' Dorje Shugden. I still find it funny for Lord Shugden to tear their reputation down in this way (and they deserve every bit of it!) and how they failed. My Guru had said to me before that in Buddhism, there are no rituals to destroy a ghost (because, that would be very un-buddhist! Duh!) so how do they destroy a Buddha? If they are Buddhist, they would probably be invoking the powers of a Buddha to destroy something...but in this case, it is hilarious because they are trying to evoke the powers of a Buddha to destroy another Buddha!!! I dont see the logic, do you?

Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang remarks:
Even the composition of this short praise and propitiation brought benefit. Thus, although undisputed great Tantric masters tried to subdue him by burning him in the fire through their rituals, his display of miraculous power only grew greater, and it is in regard to this that he is being praised in this verse.

In recent times again, such an attempt was again made and Dorje Shugden was declared ‘dead’. The very next day, he took trance and said this:
They can bury me in earth,
drown me in water,
burn me in fire
but they cannot destroy
what is not object to destruction.
Do not worry – soon the sun will shine.

If you have witnessed the great King Protector communicate through an oracle you have noticed the sacred presence of bodhicitta energy that inspires humility and gratitude. May we too be soon embodiments of universal transcendent compassion.

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/why-not-just-kill-him-and-let-him-be-forgotten/

Another article has more details and says that it took place in Drepung but I am unable to find the exact article at this moment. Does anyone recall?

[Dondrup Shugden]

Looks like the controversy between the Dalai Lamas and Dorje Shugden had been on from 5th and now 14th Dalai Lama.

However, the interesting thing is that after various attempts to destroy Dorje Shugden the 5th Dalai Lama conceded that Shugden is an enlightened Buddha.

It is my sincere wish that the 14th Dalai Lama with all his wisdom and compassion will do the same and lift the Ban.

[Tenzin K]

At first I’m confuse with the Dalai Lama action. Actually sometimes i still do…

If Dorje Shugden is really a spirit definitely the Dalai Lama could able to subdue him in order to protect the people and refrain the Dorje Shugde to keep collecting negative karma.

But since the 5th Dalai Lama unable to do so, so what make the 14th Dalai Lama say that it’s a evil spirit?
For whatever reason from the Dalai Lama action to ban Shugden practice does give an impact for Dorje Shugden practices to grow bigger outside India. But strongly request the Dalai Lama to quickly lift the ban as one side we see more people practice but at the same time they are more people suffer from the ban.