The western mind's view regarding oracles and Nechung...

[DSFriend]

Just sharing some thoughts which came to mind while reading Nechung : The State Oracle of Tibet
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=5609 ...

Comparing the western culture to the asian culture, the phenomena of oracles, of mediums, of people taking trance is definitely more prevalent in the minds of asians. To the western mind, we tend to view this phenomena as archaic, superstitious and unreliable.

If we have this view, will this skepticism work for us or against us. If we believe in the Buddha, do we also believe in the many manifestations of the Buddhas including the form of Dharmapala.

In Tibetan Buddhism, Kuten is the honorific given to a person who has gone through disciplined and extensive training to take trance of higher beings, some enlightened such as Dorje Shugden and some not, such as Nechung.

This article mentions how Nechung has been consulted for hundreds of years now by the Tibetan Government. We may take a critical stance and question the validity of such an archaic method of information gathering. However, I can also take an opposing stance and question the advice of the advisors of political leaders. Many advice have landed us in wars and countless lives lost. On this basis, who has the right method of ruling a country? I am neither for nor against Nechung..but merely exploring from different viewpoints.

Nechung was oath bound by Padmasambhava. Nechung Kuten is given the rank of deputy minister in the exiled Tibetan government hierarchy. According to the Dalai Lama, "Tibetans rely on oracles for various reasons. The purpose of the oracles is not just to foretell the future. They are called upon as protectors and sometimes used as healers. However, their primary function is to protect the Buddha Dharma and its practitioners."(source wikipedia)

I find it fascinating with the availability of different sources of intelligence. It is said that Nechung's time is nearing to be enlightened. And why not..? Nechung, just like all of us are sentient beings with potential to achieve enlightenment.

It is also interesting to note that it was Nechung who appeared to Duldzin Drakpa Gyaltsen, to promise to arise as Dorje Shugden, protector of Nagarjuna's Madhyamika. Though Nechung's advice seems to be in opposing Dorje Shugden now, could it be that Nechung is just manifesting fickle mindedness just like the Dalai Lama seems to be to bring about a purposeful controversy?

[DharmaSpace]

In the west in ancient times oracles were consulted. The westerners have traded their traditions with science, but science has its limitations.  I recall one of His Holiness teachings that, under the same conditions and circumstances, the person ( one's karma) conducting the experiment can affect the results. So is science really that dependable for us to determine what is the real truth about everything.

good write up on oracles
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/index.php?s=oracles&paged=6

From what my lama told me Nechung is become more enlightened in the service of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, benefiting sentient beings. Nechung's as a powerful spirit has clairvoyance and  so forth. And for many hundreds of years his predictions have been accurate and suddenly in the 20th century becomes less dependable?

Does that make sense, as one becomes more enlightened one should get more accurate in their predictions. Unless its done on purpose...... 

[triesa]

From what my lama told me Nechung is become more enlightened in the service of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, benefiting sentient beings. Nechung's as a powerful spirit has clairvoyance and  so forth. And for many hundreds of years his predictions have been accurate and suddenly in the 20th century becomes less dependable?

Does that make sense, as one becomes more enlightened one should get more accurate in their predictions. Unless its done on purpose...... 

Like what Dharmaspace said here, the discrepancies is so "obvious" that one could only conclude that all this are done on purpose. It is so "clear" and "easy"  for anyone to see and ask why? 

[DSFriend]

Nechung has been getting quite a bit of "bad press" and accusations for giving contradictory and misleading answers. Yet at the same time, there are just too much to be so quick to discredit him.

Time will tell...

[beggar]

Comparing the western culture to the asian culture, the phenomena of oracles, of mediums, of people taking trance is definitely more prevalent in the minds of asians. To the western mind, we tend to view this phenomena as archaic, superstitious and unreliable.

If we have this view, will this skepticism work for us or against us. If we believe in the Buddha, do we also believe in the many manifestations of the Buddhas including the form of Dharmapala.

Actually, there is plenty plenty of examples in the Western world of people relying on oracles. For example, oracles were very powerful in ancient Greece - they built huge temples just for their oracles, many of which are still in existence today and are one of the country's main sites.

It does not make sense for us to dismiss the relevance and authenticity of oracles on the one hand, but on the other hand, have strong faith and belief in all the stories of old of high masters having visions, communicating directly with the Buddhas etc. We believe that Buddhas can emanate in any form and we believe that there are many highly attained masters who can perceive Buddhas directly, have visions and are deeply clairvoyant and attained.... so it is only logical that if we believe that masters like Naropa, Pabongka Rinpoche etc had visions directly of yidams like Vajrayogini, then we should also believe that other high masters are able to authenticate oracles (and the beings they take trance in), authorise them and consult them directly.

[DSFriend]

It does not make sense for us to dismiss the relevance and authenticity of oracles on the one hand, but on the other hand, have strong faith and belief in all the stories of old of high masters having visions, communicating directly with the Buddhas etc. We believe that Buddhas can emanate in any form and we believe that there are many highly attained masters who can perceive Buddhas directly, have visions and are deeply clairvoyant and attained.... so it is only logical that if we believe that masters like Naropa, Pabongka Rinpoche etc had visions directly of yidams like Vajrayogini, then we should also believe that other high masters are able to authenticate oracles (and the beings they take trance in), authorise them and consult them directly.

One of the factors I love about Buddhism....it is very logical and clear.

[Big Uncle]

I believe that the oracle will always have a place in modern spiritual practice. Consulting an oracle doesn't necessarily mean that one is superstitious. In fact, the oracle provides answers and guidance for many people. Good advice and guidance never go out of style or become too archaic.

I have not always been a firm believer of oracles until I had an experience of meeting a Dorje Shugden oracle in Nepal and how his advice and prophecies brought me a lot of relief and something to look forward to. It is because of that, I have developed a lot of faith in this tradition. I am not fanatical and I have not consulted him ever since but if I would need to, I would look for an oracle because his answers are very accurate. 

[pgdharma]

This article mentions how Nechung has been consulted for hundreds of years now by the Tibetan Government. We may take a critical stance and question the validity of such an archaic method of information gathering. However, I can also take an
It is also interesting to note that it was Nechung who appeared to Duldzin Drakpa Gyaltsen, to promise to arise as Dorje Shugden, protector of Nagarjuna's Madhyamika. Though Nechung's advice seems to be in opposing Dorje Shugden now, could it be that Nechung is just manifesting fickle mindedness just like the Dalai Lama seems to be to bring about a purposeful controversy?

Time will tell and the  truth will prevail as to why  Nechung is just manisfesting fickle mindedness like the Dalai Lama. Nechung is becoming more of an enlightened being and the Dalai Lama is an enlightened being, so why the fickle mindedness unless it is done on purpose.,..,.,,

[DharmaDefender]

Does that make sense, as one becomes more enlightened one should get more accurate in their predictions. Unless its done on purpose...... 

If I'm not mistaken, doesn't the accuracy depend on the students' samaya, and also how well they've followed previous instructions???

[kurava]

Just sharing some thoughts which came to mind while reading Nechung : The State Oracle of Tibet
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=5609 ...


This article mentions how Nechung has been consulted for hundreds of years now by the Tibetan Government. We may take a critical stance and question the validity of such an archaic method of information gathering. However, I can also take an opposing stance and question the advice of the advisors of political leaders. Many advice have landed us in wars and countless lives lost. On this basis, who has the right method of ruling a country? I am neither for nor against Nechung..but merely exploring from different viewpoints.

Yes, before we scorn such consultations with the Divine we examine how much mistakes have been made by political leaders ,some chosen democratically by the people, resulting in countless unnecessary sufferings.

I too used to think the Tibetan Govt is superstitious, laugh at their decision making process. As I learned more under my Lama's guidance I realized how close minded I was.

True, if we take refuge in the enlightened beings, believe that they can help us through various manifestations; seeking advice through oracle is consistent with following the teachings of the Buddha provided we keep pure and clean samaya with our Guru and practice the dharma free of the 8 worldly concerns.

[Ensapa]

Actually, there is plenty plenty of examples in the Western world of people relying on oracles. For example, oracles were very powerful in ancient Greece - they built huge temples just for their oracles, many of which are still in existence today and are one of the country's main sites.
In fact, the west still believes in oracles but their oracles manifest in a different way. They have mediums and seances and people who can talk to the dead (unfortunately, not Buddhas) and they do believe in these things. They also believe in channeling where the divine sends you a message if you meditate in a certain way and also astral projection. Its not mainstream belief but it is accepted in their culture, somehow before christianity came and suppressed them. It is not that they cannot accept, more like they have problems accepting them due to being indoctrinated by their Christian influence.

It does not make sense for us to dismiss the relevance and authenticity of oracles on the one hand, but on the other hand, have strong faith and belief in all the stories of old of high masters having visions, communicating directly with the Buddhas etc. We believe that Buddhas can emanate in any form and we believe that there are many highly attained masters who can perceive Buddhas directly, have visions and are deeply clairvoyant and attained.... so it is only logical that if we believe that masters like Naropa, Pabongka Rinpoche etc had visions directly of yidams like Vajrayogini, then we should also believe that other high masters are able to authenticate oracles (and the beings they take trance in), authorise them and consult them directly.
Because people are insecure of their own beliefs and results. Insecurity breeds doubt and breeds skeptics. There is nothing wrong with being skeptical if we have solid proof and understand what is it really about, but not when we do not know what it is and still doubt when there is already solid proof that it is beneficial for others. That is nothing but insecurity talking.

Thanks for the interesting points, beggar, although the concept of oracles isnt new to western society, its just that everyone is too afraid of the unknown to 'explore' and learn and understand --  a typical mentality of 'educated' people as well. They become more superficial and do not bother to investigate much anymore.