Heavily Promoting their Domo Geshe Rinpoche (the other candidate)

[brian]

Two Panchen Lamas, two Karmapas, one (almost two!) Zemey Rinpoches, two (should be three?) Domo Geshe Rinpoches, these actual incarnations or ‘fake’ incarnations are creating a lot of confusions for those not familiar with the Tulku system in Tibetan Buddhism.  Perhaps this is the reason why NKT chose not to adopt the Tulku system as part of their organizational policies.  Tulku system is not bad and it is still relevant today but it is subject to abuse by so many people or parties who may have ulterior motives! These people will sooner or later destroy the Tulku system!  The Western female incarnation of Domo Geshe Rinpoche and Thupten Jinpa are clear examples.

This is way too much if its going to be continuing like this. i personally found the Tulku system to be alright but if another high lama comes out and say this one is fake and that one is the real one, it does bring confusion to people around. of course we have to us our wisdom to check and our wisdom has limits. i guess we just have to rely on our Guru to determine which one is the real one. but at the same time i do come to know that there can be a few reincarnations at the same time for a High Lama. i am trying to say it is quite normal that a High Lama will have a few reincarnations. i have read it some where. please correct me if i am wrong here.

but the whole scenario here is quite sensitive when Chinese Govt is involve in this. There could be an arguement that the Chinese Govt is trying to make use of this Tulku system and gain control to their favour.
There is a worse scenario is to see Chinese govt are using the Tulku system to gain control of the Tibetans and this  is destroying Buddhism.

[harrynephew]

What I read here is quite amazing to begin with. One lama challenging another Lama's authority and genuity. Why are Lamas of high stature playing this game really? Already we have people in the secular world doing it. Why must the high lamas do it as well? Won't it just add onto the list of other things which people are doing already?

like what Buddha had prophecised, Buddhism will be destroyed not from outside factor but from Buddhists themselves. This seems to be becoming true.

[shugdenpromoter]

Dalai Lama and CTA government can heavily promote the other Domo Geshe in Sera Monastery but a lot of the Gelugpa practioners knows that the one recognized by Trijang Rinpoche is real in Shar Gaden.The previous Domo Geshe Rinpoche gave dreams to Trijang Rinpoche to request Trijang Rinpoche to find his incarnation. That was the same day he entered clear light.

1. How can Trijang Rinpoche be wrong?
2. Domo Geshe in his previous live was strong and intense practioners of Shugden, Shugden in trance reconfirmed this incarnation.
3. This young Rinpoche in Shar Gaden has already show signs of previous Domo Geshe. I have heard that he has show signs of his clear clairvoyance and on top of this, as a young boy,he is very discpline just like his previous live.

Whatever it is, the truth will prevail as results will speak louder then any promotions, 

[Tenzin Malgyur]

This is such an upsetting news. It is becoming such a trend to have two versions of holy beings. I have read that high lamas can emanate into many forms but there is only one mind emanations. All this is again due to segregation of the shugden practitioners and non-practitioners. When a high lama reincarnate into a new body, he is definitely carrying on his works and practices from the previous life. As we all know, Domo Rinpoche was a strong practitioner of DS in his last life and the young  Domo Rinpoche recognised by HH Trijang Rinpoche is now in Shar Gaden. What about the second Domo Rinpoche recognised by HH Dalai Lama, is he practicing DS too?

[vajrastorm]

It has been shown in another thread that the Tulku system is a valid one and that the belief in reincarnations of highly attained Masters, who show their Bodhisattva natures by returning again and again to bring Dharma to beings for the benefit of all, is an ummistaken one.

The great Master, the first Domo Geshe Rinpoche  was very very close to HH Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. It stands to reason (karmically and logically speaking)  that his incarnation, the second Domo Geshe Rinpoche, be recognized by HH Kyabje Trijang rinpoche. It also stands to reason (karmically and logically-speaking) that the current incarnation of Trijang Rinpoche, Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche, should be the one to recognize the third incarnation of Domo Geshe Rinposhe.

Indeed, now that Domo Choktrul Rinpoche  has , under the instruction and advice of Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche, moved to Shar Gaden to begin, in earnest, his learning and training to become a great Lama like his previous incarnations, there can be no further doubt that he is a valid incarnation of Domo Geshe Rinpoche..

Nonetheless, just as has been said of the 2 Panchen Lamas and the two or more possible emanations/incarnations  of Dorje Shugden and Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen,  Enlightened Beings, out of great love and compassion for sentient beings, can come in more than one emanation to benefit all. So the Domo Geshe Rinpoche, currently being heavily promoted by HH Dalai Lama, may yet prove to be a valid incarnation too.

[Lineageholder]

It's quite possible that nowadays times are so degenerate that the Tulku system will not function and rather than helping to inspire faith and confidence, will lead to bickering, confusion and competition.

Perhaps it's better these days to focus on the teaching and not the Teacher?  If the recognition of these Teachers is dubious, that will also lead to doubt as they recognise the incarnations of other Teachers, and so on.  Does it really matter that these returning Teachers are recognised?  Surely if they pass away, they will find a way to come back to their traditions and their qualities will become apparent over time?

Just some thoughts.

[Ensapa]

Perhaps it's better these days to focus on the teaching and not the Teacher?  If the recognition of these Teachers is dubious, that will also lead to doubt as they recognise the incarnations of other Teachers, and so on.  Does it really matter that these returning Teachers are recognised?  Surely if they pass away, they will find a way to come back to their traditions and their qualities will become apparent over time?

Just some thoughts.

Without the teacher, an actual being that practices the teachings and show us the results, then the teachings will become dead, in a sense that nobody knows whether or not the teachings have any effect, or if they are going the right direction with them. The teacher is the light, the captain that guides us through the sea of the 84,000 teachings of the Buddha that we do not know which to apply or how to interpret correctly and with positive results.

The recognition of these teachers only give confidence to those with little or weak affinities, but those with strong affinities do not need such official recognition to seek such teachers…they find these teachers all the same, i mean, before the first Kamarpa, there was no tulku system. Then what? The teachers stopped reincarnating? Milarepa is the reincarnation of Chandrichog…did he need that recognition to achieve what he did? No. He just did what he did.

Before the tulku system, there was the system where the teachers were recognized based entirely on their ability to teach as well as their spiritual attainments of bodhicitta and wisdom. Atisha wasn't a recognized tulku. Neither was Tsongkhapa. Gedun drup was not either. And in Gelug, the tulku system is unique because it is confirmed not only based on the traditional methods but also on the capabilities that the tulku shows in the areas of study, logic and debate.

It is not the recognition that really matters to these great masters but with a recognition they can reach out to more people and it would be easier for them to do their Dharma work, but ease and comfort is not a barrier. The whole purpose of the tulku system is to allow the disciples to reconnect to their previous master and lineage in an easier way, but without it too it will not stop these masters.

[Lineageholder]

Before the tulku system, there was the system where the teachers were recognized based entirely on their ability to teach as well as their spiritual attainments of bodhicitta and wisdom. Atisha wasn't a recognized tulku. Neither was Tsongkhapa. Gedun drup was not either. And in Gelug, the tulku system is unique because it is confirmed not only based on the traditional methods but also on the capabilities that the tulku shows in the areas of study, logic and debate.

Thank you Ensapa, this was my point really.  If we wish to practise Dharma, surely all we need to do is to find a Teacher with a good reputation and then check if that person has the ten qualities of a fully qualified Spiritual Guide.  Does it matter that that person is the incarnation of our previous Teacher?  Surely all valid Teachers are emanation of Je Tsongkhapa or Buddha Vajradhara?  We want to be taught directly by Buddha so we can regard all our Teachers as Buddha and not discriminate one from another.  Titles then cease to matter.

There's no doubt that if we make a strong karmic connection with a Teacher through faith and acts of devotion, that person will care for us and find a way for us to connect with his emanation again in our future lives.  From our side, we don't need to worry about titles and recognition.  Also, in terms of their work, if they are Buddha, there will be no obstacles to them reaching out to others and for their Teachings to spread far and wide.

To my mind, that would alleviate the problem currently found in the Tulku system where there are multiple Lamas being recognised.  As you said, the Tulku system did not exist before the first Karmapa, therefore if the system isn't working in these degenerate times, there is no great loss if it falls into disuse, it won't affect the work of these Great Beings.

[dsiluvu]

This is getting ridiculous! What is the CTA trying to do? Cause division and Kill the Tulku system? And what happens when HHDL passes on and decides not to come back as HHDL... what will happened then??

[If we wish to practise Dharma, surely all we need to do is to find a Teacher with a good reputation and then check if that person has the ten qualities of a fully qualified Spiritual Guide.  Does it matter that that person is the incarnation of our previous Teacher?  Surely all valid Teachers are emanation of Je Tsongkhapa or Buddha Vajradhara?  We want to be taught directly by Buddha so we can regard all our Teachers as Buddha and not discriminate one from another.  Titles then cease to matter.

There's no doubt that if we make a strong karmic connection with a Teacher through faith and acts of devotion, that person will care for us and find a way for us to connect with his emanation again in our future lives.  From our side, we don't need to worry about titles and recognition.  Also, in terms of their work, if they are Buddha, there will be no obstacles to them reaching out to others and for their Teachings to spread far and wide.

To my mind, that would alleviate the problem currently found in the Tulku system where there are multiple Lamas being recognised.  As you said, the Tulku system did not exist before the first Karmapa, therefore if the system isn't working in these degenerate times, there is no great loss if it falls into disuse, it won't affect the work of these Great Beings.

I guess eventually it will come to this if they keep carrying on this way! I saw a video interview with Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche recently on a film called "Tulku"... what he said really stuck out and it was something like this "Who cares about the Tulku system because if the Tibetans are not careful, they can actually destroy Buddism this way. At the end of the day saving Buddhism is much more important then keeping the Tulku system.

[pgdharma]

To quote Ensapa: “the actual incarnations do not need titles to do their Dharma works, they're beyond that so this just invalidates the tulku system…and there will be impact but it won't stop the incarnations from performing great deeds. “

I personally feel the tulku system is alright, but if  one lama contradicts and challenges the other and cannot agree with each other on which is the real one or fake one it will create confusion to a lot of people around.  Thus if we wish to practice Dharma, we must find a Spiritual Guide that has all the qualities of a Guru and focus on the Teachings, not the titles or recognitions.  We must have strong guru devotion to create a strong karmic connection to meet up with his incarnation again in future lives.  Even if he were to reincarnate into two or three or more bodies, which they are capable of, because of our strong karmic connection in the past, we will be able to meet up with him again in the future.

[icy]

The CTA always causes disunity and harm the tradition of the tulku system.  The tulku system however is not all in vain.  I agree with Ensapa "the actual incarnations do not need titles to dotheir Dharma works...."  Whoever is the right incarnation will impact the world and people.  Nevertheless, we can rely on Oracle Dorje Shugden to assist locating and selecting accurately the right candidate for the installation of the rightful tulku if in doubt.  Shugdenpas have always rely on Dorje Shugden for recognization of tulkus.

[dsiluvu]

like what Buddha had prophecised, Buddhism will be destroyed not from outside factor but from Buddhists themselves. This seems to be becoming true.

Ditto!!! I think at the end of the day what matters most is what a Tulku does with his Tulkuship is more important. I am wondering what will happened when His Holiness passes who will then be the right person to authorise an official recognition to these Tulkus a part from the HEAD of the different schools themselves? Perhaps it will return to this very tradition where each Head of each sect will be in-charge and no more interferences from a 3rd party.. definitely not CTA... they are no longer in-charge of spiritual affairs! Then perhaps in this way the BAN will stop because well the Gaden Tripa will then be the Gelugpa head and will have authority over which rightfully theirs anyways. Hopefully then there will not be any more disunity...

If there is no incarnation of Dalai Lamas... then what's the fuss on going or not going for his initiations?

[tsangpakarpo]

Kyabje Yongyal Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche are both highly attained masters who are now tutors to Domo Geshe Rinpoche (the real one). With great masters as the tutors, I am sure Domo Rinpoche will grow up to be a great master himself.

Earlier this year Domo Rinpoche took his novice monk vows from Yongyal Rinpoche, many people from around the world attended the ceremony at Serpom. A long life puja was also held for both Yongyal Rinpoche and Domo Rinpoche.

I did not attend the ceremony but was still managed to have an audience with Domo Rinpoche at Shar Ganden last year. This young boy is very shy but attentive, his father speaks for him mostly but when there's a mistake, Domo Rinpoche will point it out and correct his father. For a 8 year old boy, I find it very amazing. Not many young children can pay so much attention. I was also told Domo Rinpoche could remember many words in a day, I can't remember the exact but it is definitely not ordinary.

As Shugdenpromoter pointed out, Domo Rinpoche has great clairvoyance since a very young age. I reckon he was 3-4 years old at that time. His parents held a birthday party for him at their house. Almost towards the end of the party, many relatives excused themselves to go home as it was late. But Domo Rinpoche insisted they stayed on to play with him, not allowing them to leave. After a while, an earthquake occurred causing many houses and buildings to collapse including those of Domo Rinpoche's relatives. Only then they realized why the young boy insisted they stay. If it wasn't for Domo Rinpoche's clairvoyance, many of his relatives might not be around anymore.

I don't know much about the other Domo Rinpoche but I suppose since it was the Dalai Lama who recognized him, this young boy ain't a simple child as well. Could he be an emanation? Well I am in no position to judge for sure. The only solace is that under the guidance of the Dalai Lama, this young boy will get a good education both spiritual and secular. He may not be any reincarnated great master, but with the knowledge he receives, I hope he will bring great benefit to others as well.

[Ensapa]

Thank you Ensapa, this was my point really.  If we wish to practise Dharma, surely all we need to do is to find a Teacher with a good reputation and then check if that person has the ten qualities of a fully qualified Spiritual Guide.  Does it matter that that person is the incarnation of our previous Teacher?  Surely all valid Teachers are emanation of Je Tsongkhapa or Buddha Vajradhara?  We want to be taught directly by Buddha so we can regard all our Teachers as Buddha and not discriminate one from another.  Titles then cease to matter.

There's no doubt that if we make a strong karmic connection with a Teacher through faith and acts of devotion, that person will care for us and find a way for us to connect with his emanation again in our future lives.  From our side, we don't need to worry about titles and recognition.  Also, in terms of their work, if they are Buddha, there will be no obstacles to them reaching out to others and for their Teachings to spread far and wide.

To my mind, that would alleviate the problem currently found in the Tulku system where there are multiple Lamas being recognised.  As you said, the Tulku system did not exist before the first Karmapa, therefore if the system isn't working in these degenerate times, there is no great loss if it falls into disuse, it won't affect the work of these Great Beings.

That is probably the reason why HHDL says he would like to abolish the Dalai Lama line, or that it would continue but it will not be him that will be taking up that position. There are 2 versions of the same tulku that are being recognized -- the misuse of tulkus for political reasons. For example there was 2 instances of the 6th Dalai Lama - the radical one and the passive one because the ruling Dzungzars could not accept such a wild and radical person as their lama, so they chose someone that was more peaceful to fulfill the expectations and benefit at the same time. There are now 2 Karmapas, 2 Panchen Lamas, 2 Domo Geshe Rinpoches (okay, that funny lady dosent count as one) but it seems that out of the 2 recognized candidates, only one of them will carry out the deeds of the previous tulku while the other would either remain passive or go underground as in the case with the 6th Dalai Lama. having 2 recognitions does not mean that the tulku system is flawed or that nobody knows who the real one is. It probably means that it would be not suitable to place the direct incarnation to his original seat at this time. Does anyone not find it strange when HHDL says that his mindstream is the same as the 5th Dalai Lama, but does not say that his mindstream is the same as the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 7th, 8th.....you get the idea. Also, HHDL has said that the alternative 6th Dalai Lama chosen by the Dzungzars is also an emanation of Chenrenzig. Now what does that mean?

In the end, what we should look for when finding a Guru is not his title or recognitions but on his wisdom and qualifications. A Lama that is not a tulku can equally benefit many and are equally attained. For example, Geshe Lobsang Tarchin is not a tulku, but he is still an excellent teacher. There are so many examples and getting hung up over a title or two is just the whole antithesis of why we seek a spiritual teacher. The purpose of a tulku and a title is just to make things easier for the Guru to resume his previous work as a Dharma teacher and nothing more. It should not be a requirement that we look for when we are finding a Guru. When I check out a teacher, i dont look at his title, but only his lineage and his teachings. His teachings must be valid, and backed up by his monastery and Gurus. He also must have the qualities as described in the 50 Verses of Guru devotion. Not what was his previous reincarnation. So in effect, whether or not there is a fake or real tulku it does not bother me at all as my goal is for my Dharma practice and not to be the disciple of some fancy Lama.

[Vajraprotector]

I came across someone's blog and I must say, there is something we can learn from this:

Real or Fake Tulku?
Attachment cause suffering.

One great teacher passed away and we felt a great loss. We longed for him / her to return and guide us.
years passed, and then we found ourselves faced with more than 1 options.

2 groups of people, each claiming to have found the true reincarnation.

We became confuse. We debate amongst friends.
Close dharma brothers fighting against one another.
who is to blame?

Attachment cause suffering, ignorance cause suffering.

Even if buddha is alive.
Being attached to Buddha will bring us enlightenment?

Buddha taught us Kalama Sutta, use our wisdom.
Depend on the essence of dharma, not it's form.

Skillful means.
We use form to further our faith and conviction.
We bow to relic, we bow to statue.
We pray to monks and take refuge in Guru.

Taking the boat to cross the river, we became attached to the boat

If an ancient statue can be said to represent Buddha, so can a living person.
But when human existence expires, we seek another "statue" to replace.

what is important is we do not loose sight of the dharma.

if there can be millions of sakyamuni buddha statue in this world, why can't there be more than 1 form of reincarnation.

what is real and what is false? can we distinguish the truth?
if we can, we do not need these statues
if we can't then why fight amongst ourselves because of attachment?

the statue is just a representative right?
Namo Buddhaya, Namo Dharmaya, Namo Sanghaya
What are we saying anyway?

Let our wisdom shine forth bright.
stop the bickering and follow the eightfold path.
Regardless of which statue, examine the dharma with wisdom, just like buddha taught the Kalama

sadhu.

In reality, how many people go beyond doing preliminary practices and even applying Dharma principles in daily lives? My opinion is even if the fake tulku can spew lines from texts like Lamrim is good enough for some lay practitioners who are just starting off the ground on spirituality/ Buddhism.
 
Yes, there may not be blessings of the lineage for practices or initiations, but still, Dharma is Dharma.  If the fake tulkus teach kindness, tell the students to practice the 6 paramitas, why not?

Some people do not have the good karma to be connected with teachers with authentic lineage, I think it's' better that than not having a teacher at all, at least one is making some form of progress. What do you all think  ?