Religion and Politics

[pgdharma]

Religion is doing it, obviously, with a spiritual motivation (otherwise it is not religion-right?): does it make it virtuous in this case because of the motivation?

Thought provoking question! Don't you wish that you have the third eye?

We've seen through ages that where there is politics, there is power play, control and often times sanctioned killing to suppress enemies and making sure "delinquents" fall in line, unite the country, preserve the lineage. It doesn't take much to do a quick search online to see the feudal system of old Tibet, what goes on during the reign of the Great 5th. I had the same question...Does it make it virtuous in this case because of the motivation?

It is not easy to comprehend the actions and see that it is in line with Buddha's teachings b

if these beings keeps returning then there must be something more to what the eye can see. Which in this case, if it is said that these beings manifests to benefit all sentient beings, their actions...be it peaceful, wrathful, including what appears to be  "killing" and "cutting off family lines" is a form of liberation.

What do you think?

I understand it to be a matter of motivation: bodhisattva or sellfish.
However I am not qualified to even make sure of how badly polluted my motivation is.
So how can I be sure of someone else's motivation? I personally rely on 2 things: intelligence and faith.

intelligence
I rely on analysis, historical and factual. The effects of the actions of The Great 5th can be seen with the time distance, and even the actions of the 6th Dalai Lama can be understood with the time distance.
So can the actions of many other enlightened beings of which we can find enough information.

faith
Faith in my Spiritual Guide, and in the lineage of my Spiritual Guide.
(and I rather have faith in my Spiritual Guide than in a worldly politician)

Well said! I too would rather have faith in my Spiritual Guide than in a wordly politician!

[WisdomBeing]

The majority will support the Dalai Lama and the ones who do not will be silenced or ostracized. The tactic of Tibetan govt is to silence and ostracize the detractors.They have never been democratic but authocratic even till now. Either way the Tibetans will remain silent and not speak against the Dalai Lama because he is their only hope and the face of the Tibetan struggle. The Dalai Lama's govt effectively made sure no one else can ever take the place of the Dalai Lama as sovereign ruler of Tibet for hundreds of years. To think otherwise would have been treason. So this new devolving of power from Dalai Lama to 'elected' prime minister will be interesting to say the least.

This silencing the opposition has been happening since the 5th Dalai Lama's time, when Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen was silenced and his whole household was annihilated in order to ensure that the lineage was cut. It is amazing that Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen was seen as such a threat that even his incarnations would not be recognised. It's like he was erased from history.

Although an interesting thought is that if Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen wasn't silenced, perhaps Dorje Shugden would not have manifested?

[hope rainbow]

China will be the head of the New World Order.
China will control the world economy, trends and directions.
They are too big, too resoureful and to powerful to ignore.
The West will do well by showing deference to China.
If the Dalai Lama was asking for a last shot to help his ppl in Tibet before he dies, he should appeal to China directly and visit their leadership directly in Beijing.
Make friends with them, then from this friendship, visit Tibet and ask Tibetans to cooperate with China as his last wish.
Then after his death there will be less bloodshed.
Dalai Lama making friends with Western countries is a waste of time and has gotten him nowhere after 50 years.
What can the West do? Nothing.
China must be respected.
The West is facinated with Dalai Lama, but not to the point of forgetting their individual National economic welfare.
Dalai Lama should make friends with Beijing as his last hope shot.

The Dalai Lama has one duty towards tibetans, it is to bring them Dharma, it is to give them opportunities to generate merits, and this duty, The Dalai Lama has it towards not only the tibetans, but all humans, and all beings. Whatever HH is doing, is done with a much broader vision than HH's "political" role as the head of state. The Dalai Lama has a bodhichitta motivation.
With those that venerate HH, HH benefits them, with those that despise HH, HH finds ways to benefits them, and with those that have no special feeling for HH, HH still benefits them by appearing on their TV set and newspaper talking about an attractive alternative to the average lifestyle -that is: happiness.
At the end of the day, to be tibetan, or chinese, or indian, or swedish or african, whatever it is does not matter, what matters is: have we improved in this life? Or have we worsened? uuuhhhh....
The Dalai Lama has tried to befriend the chinese before, but it was not successful, so in front of a latent resistance and opposition HH had to find a way to still make Dharma grow in China (and thus in Tibet -di facto), and what did HH do? HH banned Dorje Shugden's practice. Some, in HH's office, unfortunately became rather zealous about it -which created problems, but this should not distract us from the effects of the ban: the spread of Dorje Shugden's practice in China (and in the world).
So when it comes to mixing politics and religion, The Dalai Lama is actually showing us that MOTIVATION is the key. Maybe not everyone can see it, and that is unfortunate, but as far as I am concerned, I see a demonstration of great skills.
Perhaps, HH's next move, should indeed to move into China and talk to Beijing again, this might be rather interesting! But if this is going to compromise the growth of Dorje Shugden's practice, I doubt that HH would do it, HH may have to find another way to avoid future conflicts.

[hope rainbow]

Although an interesting thought is that if Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen wasn't silenced, perhaps Dorje Shugden would not have manifested?

Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen might have been silenced, but Dharma became louder, clearer and more powerful!

[Helena]

This silencing the opposition has been happening since the 5th Dalai Lama's time, when Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen was silenced and his whole household was annihilated in order to ensure that the lineage was cut. It is amazing that Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen was seen as such a threat that even his incarnations would not be recognised. It's like he was erased from history.

Although an interesting thought is that if Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen wasn't silenced, perhaps Dorje Shugden would not have manifested?

You are right, WB!

It is like TDG never existed. I think if they could have it their way, it would have been just as so.

TDG was seen as such a threat because TDG was just more famous and more in demand. Royalties from different countries came to pay TDG respect and would request teachings from HIM. NOT the 5th Dalai Lama.

During that time, Tibet was very chaotic (not that it is any less chaotic now, but different chaos). There was no unity. Every part of Tibet followed their own 'rulers' so to speak. The Government just wanted to unify Tibet under one leader and one central government. So, they had to find ways to get it done. In their minds, their motivation is pure because it was all for a greater good for Tibet.

See how different perceptions can govern different people to do very different things, even very harsh things. Or shall I say, what appears to be very harsh and brutal.

Checking one's motivation is THE CRUST OF SPIRITUAL PRACTICE. Amending wrong motivations on the spot until positive motivations naturally arise effortlessy is the result of the practice.

TK

Here, I have to agree - MOTIVATION SETS THE DEED AND SEALS IT.

I guess, all Enlightened Beings would know what each of them need to do. Because I believe what concerns them would never be about fame, wealth, glory or power. What concerns them most of all, as always, would be what is most beneficial over the long run.

As we can witness, how events have come about. It is not blind, careless and thoughtless.

Everything is really cause and effect.

Enlightened Beings are just way better at creating the right causes for certain effects to take place - even if they may only materialize much later in the future.

Their Enlightened deeds never end. It as unique as beginingless time. We can't really say when it all started and when it will end. It is on-going.

Enlightened Beings truly understand the laws of karma. Hence, they are not bound by karma, but can even control their karma for higher purposes and goals.

[diamond girl]

faith
Faith in my Spiritual Guide, and in the lineage of my Spiritual Guide.
(and I rather have faith in my Spiritual Guide than in a worldly politician)

[/quote]

Ideally politics and religion are never to mix but like is said it is not possible. And it all boils down to integrity and motivation. Both religion and politics are powerful tools as it controls the minds and souls. Humans are influenced tremendously by both, and religion and politics cannot prevail without humans.

But I cannot agree more that I would rather have faith in my Spiritual Guide than any worldly politician.   

[thaimonk]

Nicely said everyone. Thanks.

[WoselTenzin]

some people may find it tiring to always check their motivations before doing anything. After a while, it does become habitual. But I find it even more tiring to juggle the incredible amount of negative karma manifesting in my life always as a result of my actions prior. So I figure better endure the difficulties in the beginning and enjoy the fruits later.

I totally agree with Thaimonk.   Things would be much easier for us if we put in the effort to set a correct motivation and do the right thing from the start.  And yes, better to endure difficulties in the beginning and enjoy the fruits later than the other way round.  Correcting our mistake once it has been done would take a lot more effort and is a tremendous waste of time.  Also, some damage made could be irreparable and we can only live in regret wishing that we have done the right thing or have the right motivation from the beginning.

[Big Uncle]

some people may find it tiring to always check their motivations before doing anything. After a while, it does become habitual. But I find it even more tiring to juggle the incredible amount of negative karma manifesting in my life always as a result of my actions prior. So I figure better endure the difficulties in the beginning and enjoy the fruits later.

I totally agree with Thaimonk.   Things would be much easier for us if we put in the effort to set a correct motivation and do the right thing from the start.  And yes, better to endure difficulties in the beginning and enjoy the fruits later than the other way round.  Correcting our mistake once it has been done would take a lot more effort and is a tremendous waste of time.  Also, some damage made could be irreparable and we can only live in regret wishing that we have done the right thing or have the right motivation from the beginning.

For us, spiritual infants, we need to constantly check and readjust our motivation through study, sadhana, vows and samaya to get things right in the end. It is not easy to get it right and it is a constant challenge. I guess, the key to success is never giving up. The stakes are high but the reward is so much more. All of us including all the Buddhas, Lamas, yogis and scholars wish this was a bed of roses but it is not and so they praise those who managed to conquered themselves. However, all of them say that it is mountain to be scaled one step at a time ~ Lamrim! Thank you Thaimonk, what you said epitomizes Lamrim.... 

[beggar]

The Dalai Lama has tried to befriend the chinese before, but it was not successful, so in front of a latent resistance and opposition HH had to find a way to still make Dharma grow in China (and thus in Tibet -di facto), and what did HH do? HH banned Dorje Shugden's practice. Some, in HH's office, unfortunately became rather zealous about it -which created problems, but this should not distract us from the effects of the ban: the spread of Dorje Shugden's practice in China (and in the world).
So when it comes to mixing politics and religion, The Dalai Lama is actually showing us that MOTIVATION is the key. Maybe not everyone can see it, and that is unfortunate, but as far as I am concerned, I see a demonstration of great skills.
Perhaps, HH's next move, should indeed to move into China and talk to Beijing again, this might be rather interesting! But if this is going to compromise the growth of Dorje Shugden's practice, I doubt that HH would do it, HH may have to find another way to avoid future conflicts.

What a strong point, thank you! Another new way to look at it - I had not considered these points before.

Yes, I think in some way, some people are "sacrificed" by the ban and I am sure the dalai lama understands this. But if he is as compassionate as we believe (and he is), I am sure he will be sure that these people who are "sacrificed" are still somehow blessed and connected back to dharma in the future. At the same time, so many more people are receiving the benefit of Dharma also. I know this maybe does not excuse or make better what people have suffered...... but in the longer terms and the broader scheme of things, the suffering experienced now can be dedicated to a huger benefit, and therefore the suffering becomes merit??

I especially like your point that it is not just about Tibetans in this case. It is about all beings and people from everywhere and the dalai lama considers this in his actions. It is a very true point - we may be Tibetan in this lifetime, but completely something from the other side of the world in our next life; and vice versa. We do have our individual karmas involved also, so it is maybe more helpful to consider how we fit into a larger scheme - can we contribute to making it better or get dragged down?

[DSFriend]

Checking one's motivation is THE CRUST OF SPIRITUAL PRACTICE. Amending wrong motivations on the spot until positive motivations naturally arise effortlessy is the result of the practice.

TK

I suppose checking our motivation and amending it will naturally change the way we perceive our world and thus, react to situations differently also. I find the statement you said here to be hopeful as it will become more effortless in time.  Thanks TK.

The ban sure have stirred much negative emotion, thoughts and action from many practitioners and non practitioners of Dorje Shugden.

There could be a thousand wrongs done to us but at the end of the day, it is our own karma, resultant of our motivation and action which we will have to face.

[Gabby Potter]

In my opinion, religion and politics cannot and will not merge into one. If you want to be religious, please stay religious all the way; If you prefer politics, please do your politics and leave the religion alone. The CTA doesn't seem to quite understand this point, they are turning religion into some sectarian kind of thing, even His Holiness's own people cannot practise Buddhism well, how does CTA expect to be respected? As I am saying this, of course I am not blaming His Holiness, I mean come on man, who am I to judge His Holiness? I dare not man. It's the CTAs that are creating a mess and using His Holiness's name to get things.

[Matibhadra]

I mean come on man, who am I to judge His Holiness? I dare not man.

There is no need to judge anyone, not even the evil dalie; it's enough that one does not abet and deify criminals, which you miserably fail to do.

Behind your hypocritical pretense of a non-judgmental attitude towards the evil dalie, lies your need to protect and justify your own criminal instincts.

It's the CTAs that are creating a mess and using His Holiness's name to get things.

Every criminal abettor needs a scapegoat. While deep in your heart you support the evil dalie's criminal activity, you feel unable to bear the burden of your resultant guilt, and therefore you try to transfer it to a scapegoat such as the CTA.

[Dondrup Shugden]

Religion and Politics can never be mixed.  The very premise that these two ideologies stand on are so very different.

Politics is to control and judge.  Religion is to accept and liberate.

Politics operates on the 8 worldly concerns and Religion is to rid us of the 8 worldly concerns.

When the Dalai Lama gave up being the secular head of the TGIE, I had great hopes that He will really practise care and compassion and lift the Ban on Dorje Shugden.  Alas that did not happen.

What then is the CTA doing?  Being a tool for the Dalai Lama in discriminating and dividing the Tibetans in exile, so that the Dalai Lama can teach the world on love, care and compassion. These are only miserable thoughts that keep coming to my mind.  It is a dilemma we Shugdenpas face night and day.

The solution can only come from His Holiness, may He have the compassion to free us all. 

[Matibhadra]

What then is the CTA doing?  Being a tool for the Dalai Lama in discriminating and dividing the Tibetans in exile, so that the Dalai Lama can teach the world on love, care and compassion.

This would be like spreading a lethal virus in order better to sell the antidote. Only a demented criminal could conceive of such a perverse schema. Therefore, it s very likely that indeed such is the evil dalie's plan.

It is a dilemma we Shugdenpas face night and day.

The evil dalie's sinister schema you have just described poses no dilemma to Shugdenpas, but only to people who place their refuge in the monstrous theocratic dictator rather than in the Three Jewels.

The solution can only come from His Holiness, may He have the compassion to free us all.

A Buddhist would say that the solution can only come from the Three Jewels, never from a deluded mafioso such as the evil dalie.

Your statement shows that you are no Buddhist, let alone a Shugdenpa; rather, you are just the enslaved acolyte of a brutal criminal.