Religion and Politics

[hope rainbow]

We have seen throughout human history everywhere in the world, in every culture, and we see it today still:
politic is using religion and religion is using politic.

Politic is doing it, obviously, with a political motivation.

Religion is doing it, obviously, with a spiritual motivation (otherwise it is not religion-right?): does it make it virtuous in this case because of the motivation?

[Big Uncle]

Politics is always dirty because for ordinary folks, our motivation is always self-serving. However, when the  enlightened ones play this game... like peacocks that eat poison, they thrive. No matter how appearances may seem, they bring tremendous benefit to Buddhadharma. The reason? Their motivation is untainted and cannot be altered by mere pleasures or powers of this world.

The Great Fifth Dalai Lama expanded Tibet and unified the country of its smaller warring factions. Thus, he was able to secure Gelug survival which was suffering from reign of the Tsangpa Kings (who were Kagyurpas). The Great Fifth's imperial ambitions brought peace and stability to a nation constantly at war with its contending royal families. The unification of the nation enabled the Gelug tradition to not only survive but flourish as well.

[WisdomBeing]

I really don't like politics personally but it is a necessary evil. Even if the religious bodies are not overtly political, every country's political status is influenced by the majority religion of that country. Every political leader who is strongly religious (regardless of religion) will be criticised by the extremists of that religion for not being firm enough and criticised by the moderates for being too extreme. Either way, the religious political leader cannot win. I'm all for separation of religion and state so that the religion is not at risk when its political leader is criticised.

[Vajraprotector]

Thank you Big Uncle for telling us about the Great Fifth.

"With the motivation of bodhichitta no action can be non-virtuous because bodhichitta eliminates self-cherishing, which is the root of all non-virtuous actions. Even if a Bodhisattva has to kill, this action is not non-virtuous because it is performed solely for the benefit of all living beings. Although others may condemn them, Bodhisattvas incur no negative karma when they perform such actions because their bohichitta ensures all their actions are pure."

From: Joyful Path of Good Fortune: The Complete Buddhist Path to Enlightenment By Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, pg 456

I sincerely believe in this. If not, why would many high lamas continue to take rebirth to help destitute beings, while they could choose to dwell in superior realms and sip nectars? 

[triesa]

Religion and politics if combined and mixed well, could produce a super powerful doze........either to benefit people or to cause much harm and damage to people as well.

In today's world, we can witness plenty of examples of political leaders using religion to control their own people,  for better or for worse. Likewise, we can also see many religious leaders will exert their political influence for a cause which could be good or bad also.

I guess the question lies in how do we see which one is with a virtuous motivation??? Sometimes even a virtuous motivation may temporary produces a very negative results, and only years and decades later, will the real benefits be seen and felt.

Religion and politic are like inseparable twins, but I do agree with wisdom being in that I would also like to see people practising religion can be totally free from any political agenda. In this way, a religion can be practised purely without the worldy contamination, bringing out the true esscence of spirituality.

[DharmaDefender]

I really don't like politics personally but it is a necessary evil. Even if the religious bodies are not overtly political, every country's political status is influenced by the majority religion of that country. Every political leader who is strongly religious (regardless of religion) will be criticised by the extremists of that religion for not being firm enough and criticised by the moderates for being too extreme. Either way, the religious political leader cannot win. I'm all for separation of religion and state so that the religion is not at risk when its political leader is criticised.

Does that mean you're not in favour of the Holy See?

I can't decide whether I am for the separation or not. You see, if a person's truly spiritual, then their position of power can be used to do a great deal of good. Isn't it spiritual to want the best for the people you're supposed to serve? So in that sense, religion is great for politics.

I think the problem arises when a person uses religion as the reason for their politics. I think when a person uses anything other than 'selflessness' as a reason for their actions, problems will automatically arise. Because from selfishness arises all sufferings.

[Big Uncle]

Actually, religion is one of the most powerful tool by megalomaniacs of the past to unify people. Unfortunately, this has almost aways been misused for selfish reasons. Hence, it has almost always resulted in bloody wars, crusades, jihads and the like.

Theocratic rule has been an old tool for mankind to unify others but since the dawn of modern democracy and socialism, such a often-misused method has fallen out of style in favor of nationalism, revolution and racial supremacy. So, it is also the dawn of world wars. Hence, you will find nowhere else theocracy still in living practice as much as in Tibet. Even when the country is lost, the people still hold such strong allegiance to the Dalai Lama.

Even, he has been trying to instill modern democratic practices but his bigger view of things takes precedence. He is foregoing democracy to suppress Dorje Shugden so it will go big. So more people will enter the Dharma because of Dorje Shugden. So, he is using all his political might to push for this as his time in this life is coming to a close soon...

[DSFriend]

Religion is doing it, obviously, with a spiritual motivation (otherwise it is not religion-right?): does it make it virtuous in this case because of the motivation?

Thought provoking question! Don't you wish that you have the third eye?

We've seen through ages that where there is politics, there is power play, control and often times sanctioned killing to suppress enemies and making sure "delinquents" fall in line, unite the country, preserve the lineage. It doesn't take much to do a quick search online to see the feudal system of old Tibet, what goes on during the reign of the Great 5th. I had the same question...Does it make it virtuous in this case because of the motivation?

It is not easy to comprehend the actions and see that it is in line with Buddha's teachings but if these beings keeps returning then there must be something more to what the eye can see. Which in this case, if it is said that these beings manifests to benefit all sentient beings, their actions...be it peaceful, wrathful, including what appears to be  "killing" and "cutting off family lines" is a form of liberation.

What do you think?

[hope rainbow]

Religion is doing it, obviously, with a spiritual motivation (otherwise it is not religion-right?): does it make it virtuous in this case because of the motivation?

Thought provoking question! Don't you wish that you have the third eye?

We've seen through ages that where there is politics, there is power play, control and often times sanctioned killing to suppress enemies and making sure "delinquents" fall in line, unite the country, preserve the lineage. It doesn't take much to do a quick search online to see the feudal system of old Tibet, what goes on during the reign of the Great 5th. I had the same question...Does it make it virtuous in this case because of the motivation?

It is not easy to comprehend the actions and see that it is in line with Buddha's teachings b

if these beings keeps returning then there must be something more to what the eye can see. Which in this case, if it is said that these beings manifests to benefit all sentient beings, their actions...be it peaceful, wrathful, including what appears to be  "killing" and "cutting off family lines" is a form of liberation.

What do you think?

I understand it to be a matter of motivation: bodhisattva or sellfish.
However I am not qualified to even make sure of how badly polluted my motivation is.
So how can I be sure of someone else's motivation? I personally rely on 2 things: intelligence and faith.

intelligence
I rely on analysis, historical and factual. The effects of the actions of The Great 5th can be seen with the time distance, and even the actions of the 6th Dalai Lama can be understood with the time distance.
So can the actions of many other enlightened beings of which we can find enough information.

faith
Faith in my Spiritual Guide, and in the lineage of my Spiritual Guide.
(and I rather have faith in my Spiritual Guide than in a worldly politician)

[beggar]

I think a good guideline is to see the effect of someone's actions on other beings - does it cause more harm, confusion doubt, ill feelings, negativity, anger or does it being more peace, benefit, happiness, clarity, calm?

That is a good measuring stick for each of us individually too to gauge our own actions and whether we are getting a good result from what we do or not. If we don't, or if more people are showing signs of being hurt / disturbed, then we need to check what our intentions are again and readjust them.

[thaimonk]

some people may find it tiring to always check their motivations before doing anything. After a while, it does become habitual. But I find it even more tiring to juggle the incredible amount of negative karma manifesting in my life always as a result of my actions prior. So I figure better endure the difficulties in the beginning and enjoy the fruits later.

[Helena]

I totally agree about enduring the hardship now in order to enjoy the rewards later.

We cannot stop checking and we cannot take anything for granted.

Our samsaric psychosis is so thickly ladened with so much garbage, it is like a toxic wasteland in dire need of major purification.

I like what you suggest Beggar - we must look at the results of what we have said, done and thought about. The results speak for themselves. Our sneaky evil intent and ego can disguise themselves as many wonderful noble things. It can even hide so deep within our mind that we forget about them completely.

As long as we are not Enlightened yet, it pays to be extra careful and check constantly. After all, this new habit of checking will eventually become natural and effortless too in due course.

[LosangKhyentse]

Checking one's motivation is THE CRUST OF SPIRITUAL PRACTICE. Amending wrong motivations on the spot until positive motivations naturally arise effortlessy is the result of the practice.

TK

[Mana]

China will be the head of the New World Order. China will control the world economy, trends and directions. They are too big, too resoureful and to powerful to ignore. The West will do well by showing deference to China. If the Dalai Lama was asking for a last shot to help his ppl in Tibet before he dies, he should appeal to China directly and visit their leadership directly in Beijing. Make friends with them, then from this friendship, visit Tibet and ask Tibetans to cooperate with China as his last wish.Then after his death there will be less bloodshed. Dalai Lama making friends with Western countries is a waste of time and has gotten him nowhere after 50 years. What can the West do? Nothing. China must be respected. The West is facinated with Dalai Lama, but not to the point of forgetting their individual National economic welfare. Dalai Lama should make friends with Beijing as his last hope shot.

[Mana]

The majority will support the Dalai Lama and the ones who do not will be silenced or ostracized. The tactic of Tibetan govt is to silence and ostracize the detractors.They have never been democratic but authocratic even till now. Either way the Tibetans will remain silent and not speak against the Dalai Lama because he is their only hope and the face of the Tibetan struggle. The Dalai Lama's govt effectively made sure no one else can ever take the place of the Dalai Lama as sovereign ruler of Tibet for hundreds of years. To think otherwise would have been treason. So this new devolving of power from Dalai Lama to 'elected' prime minister will be interesting to say the least.