Southern Lamrim.

[Heartspoon]

Dear Heartspoon, If it is not like that as you have written. Then what it is like? Care to elaborate for the rest of us here so that we can learn too?

Thank you in advance.

"Thus Tsongkhapa's Three Lamrim works - the Great Stages of the Path, the Shorter Stages of the Path and his Hymn of Spiritual Experience - the four explicit instructions just mentionned and Dakpo Ngawang Drakpa's Quintessence of Excellent Speech collectively make up the "eight great Lamrim instructions".

Since none of these works is a direct commentary of any other, it is necessary to receive the lineage teachings for each one separately. In particular, there are two distinct bodies of instruction associated with Manjugosha's Oral Instruction: the more extensive teachings of the Central Lineage and the somewhat abbreviated ones from of the Southern Lineage. Named for the region from which the holders of the respective lineages first originated, these instructions mus also be received separately."

Liberation in Our Hands - part one - p. 24

"Here the teachings will be presented in the form of a practical instruction. To accomodate those who must travel elsewhere and thus are not fortunate enough to receive teachings more than once or twice, they will consist of a combined explanation of these texts: the Quick Path; Manjugosha's Oral Instruction, with both its extensive and abbreviated lineages: and, later on, during the topic of the equality and exchange of oneself and others, the Seven-Point Instruction on Mind Training."

Liberation in Our Hands - part one  - p. 25

[Heartspoon]

Pabongka Rinpoche speaking of the Southern Lineage:

"It has its own body of oral instruction- including visualizations for for refuge object, merit field, bathhouse and so forth - which is different from that of the Central Lineage."

[Heartspoon]

Thus, it is wrong to write the following assertion:

"The Southern Lamrim tradition as passed through Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche is based on combining The Swift Path and two lineages of Manjushri's Own Words."

[Big Uncle]

Pabongka Rinpoche speaking of the Southern Lineage:

"It has its own body of oral instruction- including visualizations for for refuge object, merit field, bathhouse and so forth - which is different from that of the Central Lineage."

Dear Heartspoon,

Thank you for pointing that out but what does your statement mean?

That Southern Lamrim lineage is not based on the Quick Path and Manjushri's Own Words as I had stated or its instructions on visualization and so forth as you had mentioned is different? Or Southern Lamrim tradition is based on an oral instructions not found in the Liberation in the Palm of Your Hands? 

I am a little confused because I thought Liberation in the Palm of Your Hands is the culmination of the Southern Lamrim tradition.

Do elaborate on this and thank you ahead of time.

[Heartspoon]

"Liberation In Our Hands" is a transcript of oral teachings on the Lamrim by Pabongka Rinpoche.
As it is a practical instruction, Pabongka Rinpoche bases the instruction on this own personal experience,
presenting to his students what they can best apply to their own mental development.
The instructions themselves relate to three separate Lamrim works.

The way you wrote about it I thought you meant that:

"Liberation In Our Hands" is a transcript of oral teachings on the Southern Lamrim by Pabongka Rinpoche.
The instructions themselves relate to the Southern Lamrim as passed through Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche which is based on combining The Swift Path and two lineages of Manjushri's Own Words.

And this would be a wrong understanding, I think.

[Vajraprotector]

Vajraprotector,

You really give it your all when you post. Some people post information only. Some just questons only and some just very focussed on certain subjects. But you really go out of your way to post dharma information for the benefit of all of us here. Much appreciations.

Dear Thaimonk and forum friends,
Thank you for your compliments  . I am here in this forum because I have learnt a lot, and still learning from the postings, especially sharing from TK, Big Uncle and many more and I do wish to do the same for others I hope. I'm just a bookworm  . I also love Tenzin Sungrab’s update straight from the monastery – very inspiring to get news about the precious DS sangha.

Anyway back to the topic, I've read the links by Heartspoon and those who are interested about the lineage and how it was passed can read more from page 53 onwards in Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand.

Pg 53: "Here is a little on how the Southern Lineage of Manjushri's Own Words was passed on...."
On page 57 onwards it talks about the Swift Path lineage.
 
Having read about the lineage, I think Zach’s question is still not answered - What is the difference between southern Lamrim and the other version  and what are the specifics of the difference ?

[Heartspoon]

The Southern Lamrim is written in the form of a meditation on the whole path.
It does not have a didactic vocation and never details things.
It is conceived to serve as a support to the one who is meditating.
This one must dig and deepen by drawing upon his own knowledge,
as well as his own personal experience.

[Big Uncle]

The Southern Lamrim is written in the form of a meditation on the whole path.

Does that mean, it is written down as a text?

So, all Lamrim texts and lineages will have the complete meditational topics as the original one from Atisha but the presentation of these topics would be different according to emphasis and to the meditational experience of the Lamas passing it down. I think that would be the difference - the presentation of the Lamrim meditational topics. Is that what you were saying, Heartspoon?

[Heartspoon]

The Southern Lamrim is written in the form of a meditation on the whole path.

Does that mean, it is written down as a text?

There are instructions related to bodhicitta, shunyata and vipassana which are traditionally
not found in a written form. As the disciple must hear them directly from the master, they are
kept hidden separately.
 

[Vajraprotector]

Ok, so in the lineage of the Southern Lamrim, Dagpo Kelsang Khedrub received this lineage from Kelsang Tenzin, and Dagpo Kelsang Khedrub later passed it on to Dagpo Jampel Lhundrub, who in turn passed it on to Pabongkha Rinpoche.

I'm sure many of you are familiar with the famous story about Pabongkha Rinpoche, mentioned by Ribur Rinpoche:  Dagpo Jampel Lhundrub taught Pabongkha Rinpoche a Lam-rim topic and then Pabongka Rinpoche would go away and meditate on it Later he would return to explain what he’d understood. If he had gained some realization, Dagpo Lama Rinpoche would teach him some more and Pabongka Rinpoche would go back and meditate on that. It went on like this for ten years.  (Rilbur Rinpoche, Pabongka Rinpoche: A Memoir quoted in Liberation in the palm of your hand: A concise discourse on the path to enlightenment (2006). Boston: Wisdom Publications, p. xiii)


So does that mean that Pabongkha Rinpoche was focusing on the meditation/practise according to the Southern Lamrim tradition during the years of the meditation?

[Heartspoon]

Each day He trained in order to attain an union of His breathings whith the 84'000 teachings of Buddha.
Dharma, Guru, Buddha, Sangha...