If Dalai Lama didn't say anything, it wouldn't have grown!

[Mana]

Dorje Shugden's practice can never be eliminated. Even if many of the Tibetans stop practicing, that will make very little difference. Many lay Tibetans study very little of the dharma anyway. It will be the non-Tibetans who will continue this practice and make Dorje Shugden spread. Dorje Shugden doesn't belong to the Tibetans anyway, like the dharma, it belongs to mankind. And many will continue to make it grow bigger with each generation.

The Dalai Lama made Dorje Shugden big by talking about him for the last few years. It was the same situation with Panchen Rinpoche. The Dalai Lama announced Panchen Rinpoche's incarnation and immediately he was gone. Dalai Lama should not have announced it and kept quiet. Similarily for Dorje Shugden's case, Dalai Lama should have kept quiet, then not many would know about Dorje Shugden and it will not be in the limelight. Now that Dorje Shugden is famous, the practice will continue to grow very big.

The Dalai Lama cannot NOT know the effects of him speaking against Shugden incessantly. He is bringing so much attention to Shugden on the world stage. After the illogical negative rumours die down and the dust settles about Shugden's practice being wrong, then people will investigate further and realize Shugden is a most holy practice. But unfortunately Dalai Lama will not be around to say anything anymore by that time. I am sorry to put it that way, and no offence to Dalai Lama whatsoever.

Because of the Dalai Lama, great Shugden institutions are springing up such as Shar Gaden and Serpom. Many in Kham area of Tibet with huge monasteries openly giving initiation of Shugden to thousands. Recently the earthquakes in the surrounding area of Denma Gonsa Monastery left thousands with faith in the once criticized Shugden as the buildings were left undamaged within the Monastery.

Denma Gonsa Monastery is famous for their practice of Shugden. Many buildings surrounding the Monastery in the villages collapsed, but the Monastery and Denma Gonsa Labrang remained totally intact. This silenced the villagers who were swayed by the Dalai Lama's rhetoric against Shugden. After the earthquakes and witnessing the Shugden practicing Monastery remaining intact and safe, the thousands of villagers in surrounding areas are silenced and many are now adopting the Shugden practice. Many reports are coming in from Tibet are saying so.

So Trijang Rinpoche's prophecy and the bigger picture is coming to light now. As far-fetched as it may sound, it is coming true. After all, if we can believe in a four faced-twelve armed-blue deity called Heruka embracing a female- red-angry-consort to bring us to enlightenment, why not the bigger picture? The bigger picture is making more and more sense now. Everything is far-fetched yet nothing could be far-fetched. It is up to you. For me, the bigger picture makes sense. It will always make sense. The Dalai Lama can just mention once or twice about not practicing Shugden, but he doesn't. He repeats it almost 'obsessively'. He is doing something more. It's gotta be.

[triesa]

So Trijang Rinpoche's prophecy and the bigger picture is coming to light now. As far-fetched as it may sound, it is coming true. After all, if we can believe in a four faced-twelve armed-blue deity called Heruka embracing a female- red-angry-consort to bring us to enlightenment, why not the bigger picture? The bigger picture is making more and more sense now. Everything is far-fetched yet nothing could be far-fetched. It is up to you. For me, the bigger picture makes sense. It will always make sense. The Dalai Lama can just mention once or twice about not practicing Shugden, but he doesn't. He repeats it almost 'obsessively'. He is doing something more. It's gotta be.

We have discussed this illogical obsessively mentioning of Shugden as evil spirit by the Dalai Lama previously, for Dalai Lama to mention banning Shugden practice in almost every opportunity he could have, to me, and as I have mentioned before, is just so illogical. Like you said, Mana, Dalai Lama only needs to mention once, and that is it. everyone would listen. He repeated singing the same tune over and over again, is actually orchestrating for a bigger performance for great king Dorje Shugden.

Only time will tell...........and patience is the virtue.

So much bad mouth against the Dalai Lama is so unnecessary.  Without him, Dorje Shugden would not have been  as well known as now.  DS websites, including Dorjeshugden.com  would not have been establised to clear the misunderstanding in DS and his practice.

And DS monasteries, like Shar Gaden and Serpom would not have been established if the monks practising DS have not been kicked out.

Hope everyone gets the bigger picture as prophesied Trijang Rinpoche.

[LosangKhyentse]

Dorje Shugden's practice can never be eliminated. Even if many of the Tibetans stop practicing, that will make very little difference. Many lay Tibetans study very little of the dharma anyway. It will be the non-Tibetans who will continue this practice and make Dorje Shugden spread. Dorje Shugden doesn't belong to the Tibetans anyway, like the dharma, it belongs to mankind. And many will continue to make it grow bigger with each generation.

The Dalai Lama made Dorje Shugden big by talking about him for the last few years. It was the same situation with Panchen Rinpoche. The Dalai Lama announced Panchen Rinpoche's incarnation and immediately he was gone. Dalai Lama should not have announced it and kept quiet. Similarily for Dorje Shugden's case, Dalai Lama should have kept quiet, then not many would know about Dorje Shugden and it will not be in the limelight. Now that Dorje Shugden is famous, the practice will continue to grow very big.

The Dalai Lama cannot NOT know the effects of him speaking against Shugden incessantly. He is bringing so much attention to Shugden on the world stage. After the illogical negative rumours die down and the dust settles about Shugden's practice being wrong, then people will investigate further and realize Shugden is a most holy practice. But unfortunately Dalai Lama will not be around to say anything anymore by that time. I am sorry to put it that way, and no offence to Dalai Lama whatsoever.

Because of the Dalai Lama, great Shugden institutions are springing up such as Shar Gaden and Serpom. Many in Kham area of Tibet with huge monasteries openly giving initiation of Shugden to thousands. Recently the earthquakes in the surrounding area of Denma Gonsa Monastery left thousands with faith in the once criticized Shugden as the buildings were left undamaged within the Monastery.

Denma Gonsa Monastery is famous for their practice of Shugden. Many buildings surrounding the Monastery in the villages collapsed, but the Monastery and Denma Gonsa Labrang remained totally intact. This silenced the villagers who were swayed by the Dalai Lama's rhetoric against Shugden. After the earthquakes and witnessing the Shugden practicing Monastery remaining intact and safe, the thousands of villagers in surrounding areas are silenced and many are now adopting the Shugden practice. Many reports are coming in from Tibet are saying so.

So Trijang Rinpoche's prophecy and the bigger picture is coming to light now. As far-fetched as it may sound, it is coming true. After all, if we can believe in a four faced-twelve armed-blue deity called Heruka embracing a female- red-angry-consort to bring us to enlightenment, why not the bigger picture? The bigger picture is making more and more sense now. Everything is far-fetched yet nothing could be far-fetched. It is up to you. For me, the bigger picture makes sense. It will always make sense. The Dalai Lama can just mention once or twice about not practicing Shugden, but he doesn't. He repeats it almost 'obsessively'. He is doing something more. It's gotta be.

Interesting observation. I can agree to most of it. The Dalai Lama is doing Dorje Shugden's practice a favour for sure.

TK

[beggar]

Many people (especially Tibetans) do not like this, but I will say it anyway!

Surely, with his attainments and clairvoyance, the Dalai Lama must know the rising, growing power of China and their increasing need for Dharma. (even without attainments and clairvoyance, any ordinary person can already deduce this!) it is set to be the world's next superpower and one with a fifth of the world's population. 

The reasons that the Dalai Lama gave for the ban on DS is because it will harm his life and destroy the cause for Tibetan independence. it does not take much to put the two together. Of course, China want to do whatever they can to destroy the Dalai Lama and the cause for Tibetan Independence - it would make sense if they took up the practice, just to spite the Dalai Lama if nothing else.

Now there is much clear evidence that Dorje Shugden's practice is growing throughout China - the monasteries are widely promoting it (both in Tibet and in other parts of China). Even if only 1% of China does the practice, that is 10 million people! And with their rising influence in the world, it can likely spread even further.

so certainly, by DL saying something, it HAS GROWN.

[dsiluvu]

I totally agree to this....

The Dalai Lama cannot NOT know the effects of him speaking against Shugden incessantly. He is bringing so much attention to Shugden on the world stage. After the illogical negative rumours die down and the dust settles about Shugden's practice being wrong, then people will investigate further and realize Shugden is a most holy practice. But unfortunately Dalai Lama will not be around to say anything anymore by that time. I am sorry to put it that way, and no offence to Dalai Lama whatsoever.

...if Dalai Lama is unaware of the causes He is creating and the attention He is getting from banning Dorje Shugden, is like saying the head of Buddhism does not know the laws of cause and effect. Then who dares receive teachings from someone who has no realisation, why go for his initiations... This is no longer a reason debatable...it is far too obvious, any monkey could see it. So people should stop creating such excuse for H.H. the Dalai Lama.

Oh I think H.H. know a lot about what he is doing, fanning the amber and making the fire go bigger and wilder is what it has become. Tibetan Dorje Shugden practitioners living outside of India also agrees of the fact that the more Dalai Lama talks about Dorje Shugden, so does the world! Amazingly this is a master strategy no ordinary being could come up with and dare to do unless the motivation is... what else to make Dorje Shugden world famous because there is huge price to for this. But is the benefit bigger and worth it... I say YES!

[diamond girl]

Many people (especially Tibetans) do not like this, but I will say it anyway!

Surely, with his attainments and clairvoyance, the Dalai Lama must know the rising, growing power of China and their increasing need for Dharma. (even without attainments and clairvoyance, any ordinary person can already deduce this!) it is set to be the world's next superpower and one with a fifth of the world's population. 

The reasons that the Dalai Lama gave for the ban on DS is because it will harm his life and destroy the cause for Tibetan independence. it does not take much to put the two together. Of course, China want to do whatever they can to destroy the Dalai Lama and the cause for Tibetan Independence - it would make sense if they took up the practice, just to spite the Dalai Lama if nothing else.

Now there is much clear evidence that Dorje Shugden's practice is growing throughout China - the monasteries are widely promoting it (both in Tibet and in other parts of China). Even if only 1% of China does the practice, that is 10 million people! And with their rising influence in the world, it can likely spread even further.

so certainly, by DL saying something, it HAS GROWN.

This posts makes much sense and I cannot agree more that the Chinese need the Dharma whether or not they have the attainments. In fact everyone needs the Dharma. And what better than with a great and powerful Protector Dorje Shugden. The "hostility" between China and HHDL will only set perfect "breeding" grounds for the seeds of Dorje Shugden to further grow and flourish.

As for the heated Ban by the HHDL, I can only say that bad publicity is still publicity.

[hope rainbow]

I would like to add this:

How compassionate of HH to do so!
HH is facing many problems resulting from the ban of DS practice and HH's reputation is on the line too; yet HH is on the front line!
A person of worldly motivation would have had to be stupid to engage in such a ban.

[jessicajameson]

Denma Gonsa Monastery is famous for their practice of Shugden. Many buildings surrounding the Monastery in the villages collapsed, but the Monastery and Denma Gonsa Labrang remained totally intact. This silenced the villagers who were swayed by the Dalai Lama's rhetoric against Shugden. After the earthquakes and witnessing the Shugden practicing Monastery remaining intact and safe, the thousands of villagers in surrounding areas are silenced and many are now adopting the Shugden practice. Many reports are coming in from Tibet are saying so.

I'm glad that the earthquake made the villagers have faith, instead of lose more faith.

I would think that some people would conclude that it's because of the horrific powers of DS that everything else was destroyed except for the temple.

However, it's kindda shameful and upsetting how their faith was determined by such events.

The Dalai Lama cannot NOT know the effects of him speaking against Shugden incessantly. He is bringing so much attention to Shugden on the world stage.

This is the one thing that doesn't made me realize that HHDL must be part of creating the bigger picture.

Yes, there is terrible suffering because of the ban. Yes, there are people who are hurting along the way. But for everything great, there is a cost (in my little mind, anyways).

Was there a cost in spreading the Dharma all over the world and esp to the West? Many people suffered during the Chinese invasion. Thousands of mass murders and persecutions within Tibet.

So for that, shouldn't we be hateful towards the Chinese? But now, we are happy that the Chinese are promoting DS?

I believe that we have to stop projecting our judgements (and other problems) onto someone, when we're not happy about a situation. In this case HHDL and the DS ban.

There's always a villain and a victim in samsaric situations. We see monks suffering for practicing DS. Yes, it is terrible but are they the victim and HHDL the villain? Since when do people practicing Buddhism project and label people as bad and good.

What happened to karma, the law of cause and effect? I'm not saying that "victims" of the DS ban deserved it, but did their situation come from nowhere? HHDL punished them? It can't be. Not even logical.

If we don't have faith in HHDL, it can't be that for everything else that HHDL preaches is correct and for this particular issue he's "evil".

Every word that comes out from HHDL mouth is preaching about compassion.

HHDL did not become an iconic figure of peace because he was spreading hate for years. It's because everything that he exuded was of peace, love, compassion and unity.

The ban is part of it all. It's part of the bigger picture.

[vajrastorm]

I would like to focus on the aspect of this thread re Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden working together to spread the Dharma, especially to the power house of the future, China. My view is still that of a great orchestration of two Enlightened and Holy Beings to ensure the continued growth and spread of holy Dharma, especially the Dharma of Je Tsongkapa, the Dharma which the people of this degenerate age needs.

I think that this bigger picture is also backed up by the fact that the Dalai Lama has deliberately not trained up a successor and has held political power in his hands all along.  He knows the consequences of this - that when he passes away, there will be a vacuum. He is deliberately allowing this to happen. This will mean that when he is no more, there will be no credible and accepted TGIE.

At the same time we are seeing the rapid ‘wildfire’ spread of Dorje Dorje Shugden monastery – the Denma Gonsa Monastery and amany of the buildings of the village surrounding them had collapsed. Now is the time to work relentlessly to ensure the spread of Dorje Shugden practice everywhere, so that Dharma is flourishing everywhere even when the Dalai Lama is no more. Politics may rise and fall, but Dharma must prevail and transcend mundane issues like politics for the benefit of all beings.

[beggar]

TK posted this the thread about the DS initiation in Chamdo (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1145.0) but it is very appropriate for this thread too, so I will repost it here. Very beautiful! thank you TK!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

In the future after the HH Dalai Lama haspassed away, there is only one direction the Dorje Shugden practice/lineage/practitioners can go. That is up.

Whatever the Dalai Lama has said and done 'against' Shugden is only temporary. He has made Shugden famous. He continues to do so by keeping the ban in place. All the superficial practitioners have dropped off. But the hardcore ones are strong and remain steadfast. Many young Tulkus and Geshes are in the making. Even the supreme tulkus such as Trijang, Pabongka, etc are laying low for now and HAVE NOT RENOUNCED DORJE SHUGDEN. THAT IS A FACT THEY HAVE NOT RENOUNCED. Under the huge pressure of the ban, they have not forsaken the practice of Dorje Shugden. They are old enough where they can think for themselves and not be 'forced' to practice by their old attendants. Yet they choose to practice. You do not see Trijang Rinpoche nor Pabongka Rinpoche attending any events by the Dalai Lama. Their lack of attendance leaves a huge vacuum. Everyone within the Gelug systems knows it and so do they as well as the Dalai Lama. How many more Tulkus, Geshes and people have quietly opted out of any involvement with the Dalai Lama. They choose to be quiet not because they are cowards, but perhaps they choose to quietly spread the practice in preparation for the time where they can come out in the open with it. Some come out in the open, some wait. Everyone has their tactics and their own methods. Everyone has the right to choose their methods irrelevant of what anyone may think. Not joining in Dalai Lama's activities and quietly practicing shows their great courage and skillful means.

You do not see Trijang Rinpoche,  Pabongka Rinpoche, Yongyal Rinpoche, Gonsar Rinpoche, etc etc going around protesting against the Dalai Lama with placards. That does not mean they are cowards or they are afraid. It means they are just waiting. That is their right. No one should criticize them for their methods. They and many lamas shoulder the responsibility of bringing dharma to so many during this age of materialism. Their courage does not need to be shown or manifest in the form of protests or open statements about their practice. Everyone has their reasoning and path to tread.

So many Tulkus, Geshes and people are practicing Dorje Shugden quietly. So many continue to not protest or 'fight' against the Dalai Lama. They know it is a matter of time before the ban becomes ineffective and ignored.
There will be no one of consequence or lasting effect to defend the ban later. Buddhism will take root in democratic countries and all will practice according to their democratic choice. In the future if one centre forbids/disparages other centres for practicing, they can be presented a law suit for debasement or something similar. To discourage others from one centre or group because of Dorje Shugden will infringe upon democratic laws that protect the freedom of worship. It would be a serious matter to cross the line. In the future, no one can stop Dorje Shugden's practice because they are protected by the law.

Any lamas who come into prominence will never have the same speaking power as the Dalai Lama once did, if they should speak out of line, it would not serve their purpose in the long run. They would be seen as sectarian, biased or self serving.

Everyone should be patient for a little while longer. Within our lifetime Shugden will take root all over the world. After we are gone, it will continue to grow and expand. We should be adamant about our participation in Shugden's growth. We will keep up our practice and dissemination of information on Shugden. Instead of just protests which may be good for some, we must disseminate information on Shugden's history, background, nature, benefits and practice. Through logic and patience Shugden's practice will prevail.

TK

[DSFriend]

I think that this bigger picture is also backed up by the fact that the Dalai Lama has deliberately not trained up a successor and has held political power in his hands all along.  He knows the consequences of this - that when he passes away, there will be a vacuum. He is deliberately allowing this to happen. This will mean that when he is no more, there will be no credible and accepted TGIE.

Interesting view.

Dalai Lama has been criticized for holding on to the power seat, to a point that it is treason for anyone wanting to take over his position as the Spiritual/Political head of tibet. Well, we do have the Political shoe filled but who will be able to fill the shoe as the spiritual head when DL passes away?

But we know for sure, this incarnation of the 14th Dalai Lama manifested most powerful speech which no one can deny. Can anyone else in the Tibetan Buddhist world match the Dalai lama in this regard?

If it wasn't because of DL speaking about/against Dorje Shugden, would this deity's name be heard of throughout the world in such a short span of time? I doubt...

[Helena]

Denma Gonsa Monastery is famous for their practice of Shugden. Many buildings surrounding the Monastery in the villages collapsed, but the Monastery and Denma Gonsa Labrang remained totally intact. This silenced the villagers who were swayed by the Dalai Lama's rhetoric against Shugden. After the earthquakes and witnessing the Shugden practicing Monastery remaining intact and safe, the thousands of villagers in surrounding areas are silenced and many are now adopting the Shugden practice. Many reports are coming in from Tibet are saying so.

So Trijang Rinpoche's prophecy and the bigger picture is coming to light now. As far-fetched as it may sound, it is coming true. After all, if we can believe in a four faced-twelve armed-blue deity called Heruka embracing a female- red-angry-consort to bring us to enlightenment, why not the bigger picture? The bigger picture is making more and more sense now. Everything is far-fetched yet nothing could be far-fetched. It is up to you. For me, the bigger picture makes sense. It will always make sense. The Dalai Lama can just mention once or twice about not practicing Shugden, but he doesn't. He repeats it almost 'obsessively'. He is doing something more. It's gotta be.

Mana, I love what you wrote above.

Those are the very words that have struck me as solid gold proof that Dorje Shugden can never fade and be repressed.
No matter what is done and have been done, the reality speaks the loudest.
Nothing is stopping, dwindling or disappearing.
In fact its the total opposite.

Many have criticized those who believe in the bigger picture. Well, I can only say, time will show. Just as how time and events have shown themselves to the villagers in the area of Denma Gonsa Monastery.

Dorje Shugden's time has come. Whether you like it or not, whether you believe in the bigger picture or your own small little picture, it doesn't matter. At the end of the day, when the Protector raises his banner in all the ten directions, we all rejoice the same. Let's please remember that.

[DharmaSpace]

This really brings to mind about for a practice to grow, sometime it is good when there is pressure and duress to create a BIGGER growth. hence in this case the stress was delivered by His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

Surely the practitioners , monks and all who still enduring in the practice will have come up more tenacious after this ordeal finally blows over. Impermanence is reality this surely applies to the ban too. Unless Buddha is not telling the truth

[Ensapa]

The results shows us very clearly that as a direct result of HHDL's 'ban' on Dorje Shugden, Dorje Shugden has grown tremendously. Everyone knows about him now. Many Buddhist circles are aware about him, and some people are aware about him too. Sometimes, publicity is publicity, whether or not it's good or bad but when people search for Dorje Shugden online and they come here, they will realize that Dorje Shugden is good. And when that happens, HHDL's words will really be contemplated before they will take it in freely.

[Gabby Potter]

Personally I am a Dorje Shugden practitioner, I wouldn't put the blame on His Holiness the Dalai Lama. His Holiness knows what is best for us and I trust Him with that. This has shown the amount of negative karma that needs to be purified in order for everyone to do Dorje Shugden's practise smoothly. We are the ones who have created the downfalls/ negative karma, and I just don't think it's fair to throw the blames on His Holiness the Dalai Lama.