Jealous of Gelugs

[dsiluvu]

In tradition, Buddhism is tolerating and encompassing, meaning it does not force other to convert nor discriminate other religions. Buddhism does not believe in a creator god, but for religions who believe, Buddhism is very tolerating.

However, when it comes to this Dorje Shugden matter, its stand has suddenly changed. I must say that not all of Buddhism, but the people in CTA is pretty much very discriminative.

I would really like to see that Buddhism is tolerating and encompassing, especially towards its own sects.. I sure hope that the motivation to bring down Gelug is not real because the karma will be very heavy...

I like what you said above in a short and sweet... straight to the point and true! In my POV I don't think many people realise what they are doing has consequences and even though they are Buddhist. I guess when you do not apply the teachings it is already considered dead and all is superficial.

Perhaps all the fake Gelugs will dissolve and the one with Dorje Shugden will prevail and bring on a whole new trend of a newer order of Gelugpas... after all Dorje Shugden resides under Lord Tsongkhapa's thrown and he was sworn to protect the pure lineage and teaching of Lama Tsongkhapa

[dondrup]

Why would people want to be jealous of the Gelug Tulkus/Lamas/Geshes when they could rejoice in their attainments or accomplishments? Isn’t rejoicing encouraged as a practice to generate merits than jealousy that is detrimental to spiritual practice?  To practise sectarianism is no different than to practise schism among the Buddhist communities.  Schism is one of the five crimes of immediate retribution which causes one to be reborn immediately in hell upon death.

To add salt to the wound, these people with bad motivation used Dorje Shugden as a means to accomplish their goals of denigration, segregation and hurtful speech against the Gelug Tulkus/Lamas/Geshes who practise Dorje Shugden.  This amounts to total disrespect to Buddha Dorje Shugden.  Why become Buddhists in the first place when all your actions are negative and detrimental to your spiritual growth?  All your actions do not even fulfill the simple requirement of being kind to others!  Stop your negative actions now!

[Ensapa]

Why would people want to be jealous of the Gelug Tulkus/Lamas/Geshes when they could rejoice in their attainments or accomplishments? Isn’t rejoicing encouraged as a practice to generate merits than jealousy that is detrimental to spiritual practice?  To practise sectarianism is no different than to practise schism among the Buddhist communities.  Schism is one of the five crimes of immediate retribution which causes one to be reborn immediately in hell upon death.
It's very simple: they cannot stand the success of the Gelugs, and instead of improving themselves, they choose to try and bring down the gelugs and also Dharma centers who are against them, under the guise that they are practicing something dangerous. They either do this consciously or subconsciously, but the end result is that they are not being a good example as Buddhists.

To add salt to the wound, these people with bad motivation used Dorje Shugden as a means to accomplish their goals of denigration, segregation and hurtful speech against the Gelug Tulkus/Lamas/Geshes who practise Dorje Shugden.  This amounts to total disrespect to Buddha Dorje Shugden.  Why become Buddhists in the first place when all your actions are negative and detrimental to your spiritual growth?  All your actions do not even fulfill the simple requirement of being kind to others!  Stop your negative actions now!
It also means they do not have respect or believe in other Buddhas or their own lineage. They do not even respect Buddhism and they only see the Buddha's teachings as an exclusive club of sorts. It is very sad to see how things have disintegrated to this, at this point of time. If they were more focused on the Buddha's teachings, they wouldnt have time to criticize another tradition or be obsessed with the right or wrong traditions.

The whole point still goes back to why is there a need to criticize the Gelugs in the first place? If your tradition is better, prove it without the need to criticize thats the best way to prove it. Perhaps some people do think that they are doing the world a favor by driving people away from 'something dangerous', but how would they know?

[DSFriend]

It's not a lovely sight at all to observe how jealousy is at play within the Gelug school of Buddhism. Jealousy is such a gross delusion and is very shameful that those are are jealous and causing harm is similar to one shouting on roof tops how unspiritual they are and how power crazy they are. If we look at the history since the 5th Dalai Lama's ruling, the conflict has always been centered around fighting for political power, success, popularity. Must a lineage  have all these to make the particular lineage flourish? Why can't it be a display of scholastic achievements, attainments, kindness, all the good qualities of what Buddha taught! Let's say it's a must to be rich, politically powerful, popular etc... why can't be without having to destroy each other. It's all so senseless.

[lotus1]

The core values of Buddhism are compassion and wisdom. It is really sad to see if due to jealousy, Buddhists are causing war and harm like in some of the Islamic or Christian countries.  All these accusing Gelug Teachers are considered divisive speech and harsh speech that are all part of the ten non-virtuous actions. It is something that we really need to avoid to falls into the lower realms in our next rebirth. From the “Liberation in the palm of your hand”, there are a lot of stories written to show that it is very sinful criticizing, creating schism in the Sangha and bringing Dharma into decline.
Would really hope that all Buddhists are united and able to practice the teachings by their Guru freely.

[Ensapa]

It's not a lovely sight at all to observe how jealousy is at play within the Gelug school of Buddhism. Jealousy is such a gross delusion and is very shameful that those are are jealous and causing harm is similar to one shouting on roof tops how unspiritual they are and how power crazy they are. If we look at the history since the 5th Dalai Lama's ruling, the conflict has always been centered around fighting for political power, success, popularity. Must a lineage  have all these to make the particular lineage flourish? Why can't it be a display of scholastic achievements, attainments, kindness, all the good qualities of what Buddha taught! Let's say it's a must to be rich, politically powerful, popular etc... why can't be without having to destroy each other. It's all so senseless.

This is not the worst part of the whole jealousy debacle: the worst part of this are people justifying their jealousy and hiding it by saying that the other more successful center is doing a negative practice or a bad practice because HHDL said so. It would have been much better if they said something else rather than saying that it is a bad practice whatsoever because it shows that they dont mind misleading others just to look good. When people are misled, they lose out their chance on spiritual practice just because they are misled and they do not get to follow the teachings that they are most suited to. Their spirituality is destroyed or they give up Buddhism alltogether because they were disillusioned or far too confused already to pursue Buddhism. In the long run, for the sake of some respect and support and for people to reinforce our beliefs, we destroy their spirituality...

[diablo1974]

Theres nothing to be jealous about (jealous about Dharma??!!!?) especially between Dharma brothers. If we are going to continue pinpointing one another and making baseless remarks on he/she/him/her practice, many unnecessary obstacles are created for the tibetan buddhist community especially the Gelug. Let the practice be personal, we do not need to comment abt other ppls practicing but to do well our own.

[DharmaSpace]

There is absolutely nothing to be jealous about, even if we are jealous what comes out it. If we see people achieving popularity and success we cannot reduce our 'pain from jealousy' by being even more jealous we should instead channel our energies into doing a better job and doing better.

This was was afflicted Je Pabongka when his popularity was at its peak. It is sad but buddhism will degenerate even faster due to internal problems. 

[beggar]

This issue of sectarianism is an interesting one, especially in the context of this thread.

It seems ironic that other sects are declaring that Gelugpas are sectarian. Mainly through the false accusation that Dorje Shugden's practice is sectarian and forbids people from practicing or taking teachings from other lineages - this of course is absolutely not true and there is much documented evidence of Dorje Shugden lamas and oracles assisting Nyingmas, Sakyas, Kagyus.

The ironic lies in the fact that things are segregated - nay sectarian - within the Gelugpa sect itself. Where else do we see as prominent a divide as between Shugdenpas (Gelug) and non-Shugdenpas (also Gelug).

The jealousy aspect is definitely in the mix - this is clear. A Gelugpa cannot speak badly against any practitioner, edict, practice or teaching within any other sect for this is called sectarianism. But this is where the greatest irony is. In NOT being sectarian, the gelugs have turned inwards and creating the greatest segregation and sectarianism among themselves. this is all thinly disguised of course. They flaunt big phrases, like they are preserving the purity of the lineage, protecting the spiritual welfare of practitioners etc. When in reality, all it is, is a blatant discrimination against one particular practice within the lineage. And come on, if that isn't being "sectarian", I don't know what is.
 

[Ensapa]

This issue of sectarianism is an interesting one, especially in the context of this thread.

It seems ironic that other sects are declaring that Gelugpas are sectarian. Mainly through the false accusation that Dorje Shugden's practice is sectarian and forbids people from practicing or taking teachings from other lineages - this of course is absolutely not true and there is much documented evidence of Dorje Shugden lamas and oracles assisting Nyingmas, Sakyas, Kagyus.

The ironic lies in the fact that things are segregated - nay sectarian - within the Gelugpa sect itself. Where else do we see as prominent a divide as between Shugdenpas (Gelug) and non-Shugdenpas (also Gelug).

The jealousy aspect is definitely in the mix - this is clear. A Gelugpa cannot speak badly against any practitioner, edict, practice or teaching within any other sect for this is called sectarianism. But this is where the greatest irony is. In NOT being sectarian, the gelugs have turned inwards and creating the greatest segregation and sectarianism among themselves. this is all thinly disguised of course. They flaunt big phrases, like they are preserving the purity of the lineage, protecting the spiritual welfare of practitioners etc. When in reality, all it is, is a blatant discrimination against one particular practice within the lineage. And come on, if that isn't being "sectarian", I don't know what is.

In that context, i wouldnt say that the Gelugs are doing it out of good motivation. Gelugs who turn agains their own school and Dharma brothers and sisters just want to look good and not really focused on Dharma practice. They have no reason at all to talk bad against fellow Gelugs who practice Dorje Shugden and whatnot, more less they have any right to criticize any other schools for whatever reasons.

During these dark times, practitioners want to look good more than anything else, and at that cost, are more than willing to damage their own tradition and bite the hand that fed them. It is a very sad state for anyone to see in more ways than one, but such is the nature of people. If the Dalai Lama did not ban Dorje Shugden, we would not be able to unmask such hypocrisy amongst certain Gelugpas which will be very bad for our Dharma practice if we associate with them, so on that note, it is His Holiness saving us from having downfalls.

[Ensapa]

There are some within Gelugs who are perhaps jealous of other Gelug teachers and they accuse eachother of either practicing Shugden or not. Whether you practice Shugden or not, either way  is bad depending from what group you are from.

Your agenda may not be exposing whether they practice or not, or they are not 'honest' because they do not openly practice, but your purpose is to damage them for whatever motives you are harbouring. Otherwise, who does it actually make a difference to whether this lama practices Shugden or not. It is not our right to check, accuse or so called expose. Everyone has the freedom to practice, not practice, secretly practice as and when they like. I agree with Mana. This trend of policing lamas from all sides should cease. Otherwise we just damage the sacred Gelug lineage on our own by our own speech.

TK

Thank you TK for your thoughts, because it has provoked me to think of something. What I was wondering about is the whole "everyone needs to be out and proud as practitioners" thing which I do not get or understand at all. Is it a must that all Dorje Shugden practitioners be out and proud in their practice? Dharma practices are sacred and personal, and because of that, nobody has the right to expose or criticize another lama who so happens to practice Dorje Shugden, simply because a) they're not his students b) they're not doing the world a favor even though they think they are and c) it's none of their business.