Can Dorje Shugden be counted as an Yidam

[DharmaSpace]

This may be totally over my head but here goes...

YIdam is a meditational deity that leads one to enlightenment and helps us to transform our minds.

A protector not only helps us to remove obstacles but certain times they will give us 'challenges' so that we can grow and be better or transform. I think this aspect of the protector which make Dorje Shugden seem similar to a yidam. 

[Damian.D]

You got me wondering if you can have many different Yidams as your practice. As surely your lama would give you the best one.

Why then would you need another? If as your saying the specific Yidam would lead you through your practice towards enlightenment.
Would you need any other?

I think I read in some other post that Dorje Shugden helps practitioners up to the stage they no longer need a Dharma protector and then they are on their own towards their enlightenment as they would not fall back.

how can it be so Big Uncle?

[LosangKhyentse]

From the side of the deity, they are enlightened whether they manifest as a Yidam, Buddha, Bodhisattva, Lama, Protector. Therefore they all have the potential to be a yidam without a doubt. What Buddha cannot present the path according to needs the practices to enlightenment?

Take Manjushri for example:

Manifestations

Yidam-Yamantaka
Bodhisattva- Manjushri
Lama-Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen
Protector-Four Faced Mahakala

Manjushri also manifests as horses (Ruru), Garudas, prostitutes, traders, thiefs, leaders, emperors, etc in this world, other words and other universes without count.

Although Manjushri may manifest as Yidam, Bodhisattva, Lama or Protector, from the various sides of Manjushri, they all can bring you to full enlightenment. But from the presentation of their individual paths (sadhanas-practice texts), they have different functions.

The generation/completion stages, or the four initiations in Yamantaka are not included in Manjushri's practice in form of a Bodhisattva or Four Faced Mahakala.

The clear light and illusory body meditations essential for reaching complete liberation also not found in Manjushri's practice, Four Faced Mahakala. Manjushri's practice is to generate and introduce one to loving compassion, Great compassion, bodhicitta without stressing on emptiness.

So Dorje Shugden IS QUALIFIED TO BE A YIDAM, but at this time his path is not presented  as a yidam. So if you use his path to become a Buddha, by the nature of the path presented, you will not gain enlightenment which has nothing to do with Shugden's potential as a yidam himself. Similarily if you practice Black Manjushri, White Manjushri, Four Faced Mahakala, these practices although blessed will not bring you to the path of full enlightenment in itself.

TK

[triesa]

Thank you TK for the clear explanation.

[dechen]

To clarify some inaccuracies concerning yidams. You must acquire qualities of the yidam you practice by practice. That's the most important point to know when you decide to begin the practice of a yidam. It is well recommended when you decide to begin to propiate Dorje Phurba to not practice another yidam for instance... Concerning protectors, they do protect dharma, that's it... Maybe they help sometimes, but they do not lead a practioner in his practice when he decides to do a retreat in a dark cave, for instance...

[dsiluvu]

Thanks Tk for the clear answers. Now I understand the meaning when we read prayers that says you are my Guru, you are my Yidam and my Dharma Protector. So it is the method and path presented for student to practice that will be the road map towards the desired objective.

This now makes sense why we can say Dorje Shugden can be your Yidam....if I understand correctly it is refering to him in Yamantaka form/practice. 

So as a Dharma Protector, he helps to clear ones inner and outer obstacles so that one can have good conditions to practice and not be influenced by ones negative karma which will stop or sway us.

However before someone could even reach the stage where they can practice Yamantaka, a Dharma Protector would be most helpful in guiding one towards that path? And since Dorje Shugden is Manjushri, he will be able to bless us with wisdom as well, no?

[Big Uncle]

You got me wondering if you can have many different Yidams as your practice. As surely your lama would give you the best one.

Why then would you need another? If as your saying the specific Yidam would lead you through your practice towards enlightenment.
Would you need any other?

I think I read in some other post that Dorje Shugden helps practitioners up to the stage they no longer need a Dharma protector and then they are on their own towards their enlightenment as they would not fall back.

how can it be so Big Uncle?

Due to the karma and distraction of our time, people today already have problems keeping up with the practice of just one Yidam. Atisha once told the Tibetans of his time, "You Tibetans practice a hundred Yidams but gain not a single attainment but some of us in India, practice and focus on a single Yidam, we gain the attainments of a hundred Yidams."

This resonate with people today who chase after visiting High Lamas and collect initiations without giving much thought to the vows and Sadhanas required to be upheld. So it is always good to just stick to one Yidam. Some practices like Vajrayogini require one to have a prior higher initiation before initiation into her Sindhura mandala is allowed. By tradition, one also takes a lower initiation as a practice before we take the higher initiation. As for the Lama will chose the best Yidam for us, you are right. Therefore, it would best to cultivate the best and most focussed Yidam practice.

With regards to Dorje Shugden, you are talking about one of the specific vows (we take during his sogtae (initiation)) that mentions that we are to take Dorje Shugden as our principle Dharma Protector until we achieve Bodhichitta. That means that he will protect us until we achieve enlightenment. Upon reaching that state, we no longer need protection and we will automatically become a source of refuge and protector for others instead.

[DharmaSpace]

I thought this is an excellent post to resurrect Dorej Shugde being Manjushri and enlightened can manifest in whatever forms possible as TK put, so why can't Dorje Shuygden become a Yidam practice.

if anyone before time of Lama Tsongkhapa said there could be another lineage/tradition many people would have scorned that statement and ridiculed it, another Buddha. If Lama Tsongkhapa can found a lineage, surely Dorje Shugden can become a yidam practice. The High Lama who does this will take on all karma of the people practicing it so if there is any impropriety he is going to get it right? What High Lam in their right mind will do it to deceive others knowing the full implications of this?

[Ensapa]

You got me wondering if you can have many different Yidams as your practice. As surely your lama would give you the best one.

Why then would you need another? If as your saying the specific Yidam would lead you through your practice towards enlightenment.
Would you need any other?

I think I read in some other post that Dorje Shugden helps practitioners up to the stage they no longer need a Dharma protector and then they are on their own towards their enlightenment as they would not fall back.

how can it be so Big Uncle?

Having loyalty to one's Yidam and one's Guru is very important in our practice, as prescribed by our Gurus. Therefore, it is not necessary to go for every initiation in town and collect them as one would with stamps and the like although some people like to take on many initiations but do not do the homework and commitments that the yidams and initiations require. I guess, at the end of the day, it depends on what do you look for: exoticness or results in Dharma practice?

Having said that, Dorje Shugden is a fully qualified Yidam and he does protect us until we do not need a Dharma protector anymore: when we achieve Bodhicitta in our mindstreams and when it is no longer reversible.

[christine V]

This is a very good question.

I thanks Big Uncle on his clear explanation about Yidam and Protector

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The difference between an Yidam and a Dharma Protector. Both Yidams and Dharma Protectors can be Buddhas or emanations of Buddhas, which means they are equal from their side. However, the role and function of a Yidam makes him/her, higher than a Dharma Protector although both are enlightened and this is from the side of the practitioner.
A Buddha, with compassionate heart and skill of wisdom will manifest to into many forms which closet to us. To helps us to achieve the ultimate goal-whereby to protect us and lift us to the path of enlightenment or to keep us close to Dharma in every rebirth. Therefore, their manifestation is beyond our imagination.


I hereby quote the other answer by tk on August 20, 2010, 07:18:59 PM : http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=903.0

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Easily from Dorje Shugden's side, we can say he is a yidam. But from the path of presentation of his puja text, he is propitiated as protector. It would be wonderful if Dorje Shugden can be used as a Yidam with the full generation and completion stages of the highest yoga tantra included within his practice. It would require that we request Dorje Shugden via the oracles to give such text or a highly accomplished level lama can compose one such as Pabongka Rinpoche, Gangchen Rinpoche, Yongyal Rinpoche, or Gaden Trisur Lungrik Namgyal.

From the answer by tk, Dorje Shugden can definately be an Yidam. It is a matter of time waiting for a text to be composed.

[Ensapa]

This is a very good question.

I thanks Big Uncle on his clear explanation about Yidam and Protector

Code: [Select]

The difference between an Yidam and a Dharma Protector. Both Yidams and Dharma Protectors can be Buddhas or emanations of Buddhas, which means they are equal from their side. However, the role and function of a Yidam makes him/her, higher than a Dharma Protector although both are enlightened and this is from the side of the practitioner.
A Buddha, with compassionate heart and skill of wisdom will manifest to into many forms which closet to us. To helps us to achieve the ultimate goal-whereby to protect us and lift us to the path of enlightenment or to keep us close to Dharma in every rebirth. Therefore, their manifestation is beyond our imagination.


I hereby quote the other answer by tk on August 20, 2010, 07:18:59 PM : http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=903.0

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Easily from Dorje Shugden's side, we can say he is a yidam. But from the path of presentation of his puja text, he is propitiated as protector. It would be wonderful if Dorje Shugden can be used as a Yidam with the full generation and completion stages of the highest yoga tantra included within his practice. It would require that we request Dorje Shugden via the oracles to give such text or a highly accomplished level lama can compose one such as Pabongka Rinpoche, Gangchen Rinpoche, Yongyal Rinpoche, or Gaden Trisur Lungrik Namgyal.

From the answer by tk, Dorje Shugden can definately be an Yidam. It is a matter of time waiting for a text to be composed.

You are right. There is no difference between the Yidam and the protector as Dorje Shugden can easily grant attainments to those who are sincere and those who truly rely on him, just like how a Yidam does. However at this time it is more suited for Dorje Shugden to appear as a Dharma protector. Perhaps in the future where our obstacles has lessened, he will appear in the form of a Yidam and someone will be compose the prayers that enables us to rely on Dorje Shugden in the form of a Yidam and gain attainments.

[Dondrup Shugden]

I understand that in the Monastic order the understanding of each and every Buddha, Protector, Yidams, Dakinis must be clear so that the teachings can be transmitted to us.

It is my opinion that Dorje Shugden can be our Yidam as DS removes our obstacles so that we can practise the Doctrine of Je Tsongkapa and achieve enlightenment. Yidams are Buddhas to whom we devote ourselves to, in order to gain enlightenment.  So if that is the case, why not the Buddha who protects us and the doctrine of Je Tsongkapa not be able to be our Yidam.

Thank all the contributors to this article for their clear points of view and explanations.