The Karmapa back as a potential successor to the Dalai Lama again?

[WisdomBeing]

His Holiness the Karmapa has been granted permission to travel to the West and is in Washington, DC to join the Dalai Lama at the Kalachakra for World Peace events going on there until July 16. Not too long ago, due to the accusations of being a Chinese spy and having suspiciously large amounts of money at his residence, the Karmapa's potential to succeed the Dalai Lama was seen as pretty much diminished. However, with this recent event, perhaps things have changed? Impermanence again.

I think that at 26 years old, he is still very young to be a successor to the Dalai Lama though I know the Dalai Lama took office much younger than that. Anyway we shall see what happens.



Karmapa lama to travel to Washington DC

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/tibet/8624440/Karmapa-lama-to-travel-to-Washington-DC.html

By Melissa Whitworth, New York11:08PM BST 07 Jul 2011

His arrival signals a significant shift by the Indian government, which has closely monitored and restricted the young lama's movements since he fled into exile from Tibet in 2000.

The 26-year old monk has been granted a travel permit to attend the Kalachakra ceremonies in the US, alongside the Dalai Lama.
The "Kalachakra for World Peace" ceremony began on Wednesday in Washington DC and will see 100,000 visitors take part in prayer, chanting, meditation and speeches.

The Karmapa's presence at the Dalai Lama's side will reinforce long held speculation that the Dalai Lama sees the young Karmapa as his spiritual successor.

While the Dalai Lama has renounced his political role as the de facto leader of the Tibetan community-in-exile, he remains the undisputed spiritual figurehead and moral force for Tibetan Buddhism. His death will leave a vacuum which it is widely expected that the Karmapa will fill.

Since arriving in India, following an epic 900 mile trek across the Himalayas, the Karmapa has been forbidden from travelling freely, the object of suspicions by the Indian intelligence services that he was a Chinese agent.

In 2008 he was allowed to leave India for the first time to visit America, where Michael Bloomberg feted him in New York by declaring the day of his arrival 'Karmapa Day'. But last year he was refused permission to travel to Europe, without any explanation being offered by the Indian government.

Earlier this year he became embroiled in further controversy following the discovery of large amounts of foreign currency in his monastery in Dharamsala, leading to a witch-hunt by sections of the Indian media.

It was subsequently established that the money was actually donations from devotees – a traditional practice in Tibetan Buddhism – earmarked for the purchase of land for a new monastery which had been tied up by India's complicated land laws.

The fact that he has been allowed to travel now is a further strong indication that the Indian government regard the spying allegations as baseless.

The young monk has been praised for his intelligence and personable approach, and his international profile is building steadily, with the Dalai Lama having chosen to take the Karmapa under his wing.

The Kalachakra ceremony is the first major public event the Dalai Lama has attended since his announcement in March that he is formally stepping down as the political leader of the Tibetan community in exile.

Robert Thurman, the American Buddhist writer and academic, and the Professor of Indo-Tibetan Buddhist Studies at Columbia University, told the Telegraph: "I am very happy His Holiness the 17th Karmapa is coming. It is a great happening that the Indian government is realising he deserves free travel permissions. His friendship and discipleship with His Holiness the Dalai Lama is of historic importance in the Tibetan world, deeply healing of a subtle division that is almost four hundred years old.

"He will be a great voice for the Buddha Dharma in the future, actually he already is, but not in any sort of missionary way, in the way of joining the worldwide network of spiritual leaders turning spirituality toward peace and not letting religion serve as a source of division within humanity in this time of the world crisis, environmental, economic, political.

[shugdenprotect]

It sounds like good news that the misunderstanding on Karmapa Lama's case is cleared. Nevertheless, a thought came to mind: is the case cleared out of desperation to have somebody fill in the vacuum?

Perhaps, the void that HH leaves behind will create much problem for Dharma students all over the world. Due to social conditioning, the human mind has a need to have one leader who takes charge and responsibility of a cause, example: the father role in the family unit, the role of a school master in educational establishments, the CEO's role in companies, a prime minister/president for a country etc. Therefore, it is vital to prevent this void from arising by filling it, even before HH leaves us, just to give the minds of Buddhist worldwide some security and peace. Based on the turn of events, it seems that Karmapa Lama is the most suitable spiritual successor.

This is just my humble point of view. In the end, no one can truly understand the intricacies of all the events that are unfolding. So, like WB say, let's see what happens. The most important thing is for pure Dharma to continue to flourish and give us an option to salvation from samsara.

[DharmaSpace]

If the Karmapa takes over from the Dalai Lama, I doubt he will regain the political power that the Dalai Lama gave up.

And if he does become the supreme leader politically and spiritually, why would he have any opinion about the Dorje Shugden issue?

He is not part of the Gelug lineage also. His comments about our protector would not carry he same weight as the Dalai Lama surely.

[happysun]

The Karmapa back as a potential successor to the Dalai Lama again? I am not double on it!!! If we used another angle to read through the money case recently re-Karmapa, that is no bad impact to him. His status as a incarnation high lama still be respect by many others. He back as a potential successor to the Dalai Lama agin, it is possible. The Karmapa's supporter will be support their Lama all the way, i believe.

The Karmapa is young and have good reputation in among Buddhist centre in the world. Not doubt for him be a potential successor to the Dalai Lama. Let's us wait for the right timing come!!!

[beggar]

good question... but who knows? The Tibetan Government are always changing their minds about things. They go wherever the wind blows, like fickle little sheep.

I don't see how it would make sense for the karmapa to become the spiritual head of all Tibetans lineages and schools? And if him, why not the Gaden Tripa? Or the Sakya Trinzin? Shouldn't they all have a fair running for the position too? How does the karmapa qualify more than the heads of the other schools?

Assuming the Karmapa does become the spiritual head of all Tibetan Buddhism, how is he qualified to preside over all the other 3 schools? Does he know all the other schools  equally as well as he does of the Karma Kagyu? Just playing a devil's advocate, why would a gelugpa institution want to listen to him and his directives when he is from a different school and trained in different practices / methods? (they are not wrong, but just different) This is different from the Dalai Lama being spiritual head as he was schooled in all 4 schools throughout his spiritual education. 

[WisdomBeing]

Beggar, good points there. After some thought, i don't think the Karmapa can step into the Dalai Lama's shoes due to practicality. The Dalai Lama was brought up and educated (as you mentioned) AS the Dalai Lama - to BE the spiritual head of the Tibetans. The Karmapa (nor any other of the heads of the Tibetan schools of Buddhism) were brought up that way. This is not to say that none of them are qualified. I am sure they are all highly attained and thus very qualified to be a spiritual leader, but the minds of the Tibetans may not accept them. What you said re would the Gelugpas listen to him is valid.

Going forward from that, if the Karmapa continues the ban that the Dalai Lama instituted re Dorje Shugden practice, would Gelugpas accept that? Would the Karmapa even wish to continue it?

[Big Uncle]

I am sorry but I don't think the Karmapa will ever be able to fill the shoes of the Dalai Lama. Beside the fact that he is very young, he is also a Karma Kagyu Lama. He is not even the head Lama of the entire Kagyu sect because Karma Kagyu is a sub-sect of the Kagyus. I am not trying to raise sectarian issues here. I am saying, his spiritual clout is a lot smaller than the Dalai Lama or even many Gelug High Lamas.

Due to the great Gelug Lamas and Dorje Shugden, the Gelug tradition has spread far and wide. Just Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, who is the head of the NKT organisation, which has over a thousand centers around the world has bigger spiritual clout. This is not to mention the numerous Dorje Shugden practicing Lamas around the world with the huge following each of them has and many of whom are primarily focusing in the East - namely China. However, the spiritual clout does not necessarily equate spiritual attainments and so I can't put down the Karmapa either. I respect him tremendously but he has no say whatsoever in internal issues of other sects especially those pertaining to Dorje Shugden matters. He is so far been very wise enough to have kept quiet about it unlike other Lamas.

However, I think he is one the biggest Lamas of Tibetan Buddhism and will play an even bigger role in the future of spreading Dharma and becoming a walking embodiment of the Dharma. Hence, the Dalai Lama has taken him under his wing because there are very few Lamas of such stature to nurture him. It does not necessarily mean that he would be taking over the Dalai Lama's position.

[Zach]

There is question as to wether he is the genuine karmapa.
http://www.karmapa-issue.org/

[triesa]

Personally I am also on the same page that the Karmapa will not be a successor to the Dalai Lama, for reason which have already been mentioned by many.

The role of the Dalai Lama has traditionally and culturally been accepted as the political and spiritual head of Tibet, and I see that the deliberate "void" so created by the Dalai Lama after he said he would drop his political role in March this year, is infact paving way that there is no need for this political head. After all , I don't see how Tibet will gain its autonomy from China, no matter how the Tibetans would vow to fight. There is just no need to have this figure head as there is no country to run and rule.

I believe the Dalai Lama is carefully nuturing  Karmapa under his wings and with more exposure to the west in particular, with the hope of Karmapa will continue Dalai Lama's legacy in the west, as a world peace figure head, not as a Tibetan head.  While we can all see the Dorje Shugden high lamas are all congregating in China and are working very hard to spread DS practices as well as Lama Tsongkhpa teachings there.

This make sense to me as China would never welcome Dalai Lama or his associates back to spread buddhism there and the DS ban and split  has somehow demographically worked well for more effective penetration of buddhism or buddha's teachings  to the whole world. 

After all, no matter what color clothes you wear, it still keep you warm......

 

 

[WoselTenzin]

If the Karmapa takes over from the Dalai Lama, I doubt he will regain the political power that the Dalai Lama gave up.

And if he does become the supreme leader politically and spiritually, why would he have any opinion about the Dorje Shugden issue?

He is not part of the Gelug lineage also. His comments about our protector would not carry he same weight as the Dalai Lama surely.

I think the Karmapa is an excellent candidate to succeed Dalai Lama as the Spiritual Leader of Tibet but maybe not the secular leader.  Besides, there are many qualified Tibetan secular leaders to succeed the secular administration of Tibet such as Lobsang Sangye and the likes. So for Karmapa not succeeding the Dalai Lama as a secular leader would not be an issue. As a potential supreme spiritual leader of Tibetans, the Karmapa certainly does not lack the qualification and overall, the general reputation of Karmapa has been good.

The accusation of the Karmapa being a Chinese spy and having suspiciously large amounts of money at his residence has diminished most probably because there is no proof and it remains an accusation presumably by certain parties out to create trouble.

In my opinion, Karmapa would be able to manage the Dorje Shugden issue better as he stands on nuetral ground because he is neither a practitioner of Dorje Shugden nor a Gelugpa or has any interest at stake if Dorje Shugden practice is being practised. I would imagine his views, comments and opinion on the Dorje Shugden issue would be more unbiased and more well received.  Furthermore, if he assumes the spiritual leadership of the Tibetans, he has no reasons to continue the ban on Dorje Shugden practice.

[dsiluvu]

If the Karmapa takes over from the Dalai Lama, I doubt he will regain the political power that the Dalai Lama gave up.

And if he does become the supreme leader politically and spiritually, why would he have any opinion about the Dorje Shugden issue?

He is not part of the Gelug lineage also. His comments about our protector would not carry he same weight as the Dalai Lama surely.

Ever wondered if that is precisely the whole point of him potentially becoming the next Tibetan spiritual leader? Just what exactly would the Karmapa say that would be influential enough for the Gelugs? I don't think the Karmapa could convince all the high Gelugpa lamas and even if he could, the people will not always necessary follow.

As it is we can see a revolution happening as the causes has been created for Dorje Shugden monasteries to rise and grow. I mean, if it wasn't for the big ban, we would not have Shar Gaden and I think Shar Gaden and many others like it will be staying around and growing bigger and bigger and this certainly will not stop. Not even the Karmapa.

It would be fascination to think how all the puzzles would eventually match up to the opening and rising of Dorje Shugden practice once again.

[beggar]

There is question as to wether he is the genuine karmapa.
http://www.karmapa-issue.org/

Well that's a very short but very good point zach.

All the political bandwagons to jump on! just who do we follow and give credence to?

I like to believe that whoever the "contenders" are, it is never the title but their actions. For example, I have heard some lamas explain that there is no "fake" Panchen Lama or "real" one - both of them could be emanations of the same mind, benefitting the people in their own place and capacity.

Whoever it is that takes over as a spiritual head, most important is to always be respectful, I guess - this is the best we can do from our side. Though on a larger scale I really can't say how it would or wouldn't help Tibetan Buddhism as a whole, or individual sects.

Who knows, perhaps even if the karmapa does take over, he may be as influential as the Dalai lama has been over the last 50 years or so - the rest of the world won't think gelug, or nyingma or whatever. It may help Tib Buddhism to grow as a whole, give even more credence to the religion, and then when people are drawn to it, they begin to find out more about the individual sects. Perhaps by having someone who's not gelug, it may even defuse the DS ban, as there won't be as much of a focus on it? (wishful, hopeful!). Perhaps it opens up a new kind of "spiritual democracy" where different spiritual leaders of each school become the overall spiritual leaders. I mean, a lot of good things could also possibly arise. I do believe someone like karmapa isn't ordinary and he would find the best ways to benefit as best he can within whatever position he's in.

[Zach]

There is question as to wether he is the genuine karmapa.
http://www.karmapa-issue.org/

Well that's a very short but very good point zach.

All the political bandwagons to jump on! just who do we follow and give credence to?

I like to believe that whoever the "contenders" are, it is never the title but their actions. For example, I have heard some lamas explain that there is no "fake" Panchen Lama or "real" one - both of them could be emanations of the same mind, benefitting the people in their own place and capacity.

Whoever it is that takes over as a spiritual head, most important is to always be respectful, I guess - this is the best we can do from our side. Though on a larger scale I really can't say how it would or wouldn't help Tibetan Buddhism as a whole, or individual sects.

Who knows, perhaps even if the karmapa does take over, he may be as influential as the Dalai lama has been over the last 50 years or so - the rest of the world won't think gelug, or nyingma or whatever. It may help Tib Buddhism to grow as a whole, give even more credence to the religion, and then when people are drawn to it, they begin to find out more about the individual sects. Perhaps by having someone who's not gelug, it may even defuse the DS ban, as there won't be as much of a focus on it? (wishful, hopeful!). Perhaps it opens up a new kind of "spiritual democracy" where different spiritual leaders of each school become the overall spiritual leaders. I mean, a lot of good things could also possibly arise. I do believe someone like karmapa isn't ordinary and he would find the best ways to benefit as best he can within whatever position he's in.

If you check the site Ogyen Dorje was actually recognised as the reincarnation as someone else, The Karmapa Thinley Thaye Dorje was recognised by several lamas as the actual karmapa incarnation, I dont disrespect Ogyen Dorje regardless however it is always determined by action whom is genuine and whom is not, HH Karmapa Thaye Dorje has proven himself to spread pure Dharma and show the example of famous lamas like Pabongkha Rinpoche by not becoming involved with politics.
What this boils down to is a matter of the tulku institution being used to exploit lamas for ones own political power the Mongoose caine letter explains this pretty well.

As for HH Panchen Rinpoche I was always of the position that one can have multiple eminations of Buddha and seeing as he has been recognised by HE Gangchen Rinpoche and HH Trisur Rinpoche we can safley say he is a very special person. The Qualities of the spiritual master must be many and demonstrate perfect morale discipline Buddhas appear in a myriad of forms but taking lamas on blind faith simply because of their high position is extremly unwise.

[thaimonk]

There is question as to wether he is the genuine karmapa.
http://www.karmapa-issue.org/

Well that's a very short but very good point zach.

All the political bandwagons to jump on! just who do we follow and give credence to?

I like to believe that whoever the "contenders" are, it is never the title but their actions. For example, I have heard some lamas explain that there is no "fake" Panchen Lama or "real" one - both of them could be emanations of the same mind, benefitting the people in their own place and capacity.

Whoever it is that takes over as a spiritual head, most important is to always be respectful, I guess - this is the best we can do from our side. Though on a larger scale I really can't say how it would or wouldn't help Tibetan Buddhism as a whole, or individual sects.

Who knows, perhaps even if the karmapa does take over, he may be as influential as the Dalai lama has been over the last 50 years or so - the rest of the world won't think gelug, or nyingma or whatever. It may help Tib Buddhism to grow as a whole, give even more credence to the religion, and then when people are drawn to it, they begin to find out more about the individual sects. Perhaps by having someone who's not gelug, it may even defuse the DS ban, as there won't be as much of a focus on it? (wishful, hopeful!). Perhaps it opens up a new kind of "spiritual democracy" where different spiritual leaders of each school become the overall spiritual leaders. I mean, a lot of good things could also possibly arise. I do believe someone like karmapa isn't ordinary and he would find the best ways to benefit as best he can within whatever position he's in.

If you check the site Ogyen Dorje was actually recognised as the reincarnation as someone else, The Karmapa Thinley Thaye Dorje was recognised by several lamas as the actual karmapa incarnation, I dont disrespect Ogyen Dorje regardless however it is always determined by action whom is genuine and whom is not, HH Karmapa Thaye Dorje has proven himself to spread pure Dharma and show the example of famous lamas like Pabongkha Rinpoche by not becoming involved with politics.
What this boils down to is a matter of the tulku institution being used to exploit lamas for ones own political power the Mongoose caine letter explains this pretty well.

As for HH Panchen Rinpoche I was always of the position that one can have multiple eminations of Buddha and seeing as he has been recognised by HE Gangchen Rinpoche and HH Trisur Rinpoche we can safley say he is a very special person. The Qualities of the spiritual master must be many and demonstrate perfect morale discipline Buddhas appear in a myriad of forms but taking lamas on blind faith simply because of their high position is extremly unwise.

The Tulku system has been exploited and also used for many more beneficial purposes producing illustrious teachers. When we want to talk about exploitation, then anything can be exploited. Many have exploited the Geshe system. Just because you obtain a Geshe Degree and have intellectual dharma knowledge does not mean you are qualified to teach, act as a teacher, or be a spiritual guide. Many learned Geshes studied for decades only to disrobe in the end, marry, have kids, and act like anyone else who has not studied the Dharma. What's the point of study of the dharma when you don't live what you have studied?  At the same time there are wonderful Geshes that prove the system to be worthy. So it goes both ways for everything.

So I think just focussing on Tulkus as an institution that is exploited is narrow. Where there are humans, exploitation always is present.

 

[WisdomBeing]

Personally, I see Tulkus as people/beings identified and confirmed as highly attained beings by other highly attained beings. As such, i do think that they have a certain level of credibility. Who am I to judge if this person is highly attained or not because i'm not at that level, but if another Lama I respect says he is a Tulku, I will humbly believe that he is.

Exploitation of someone of Tulku status is from the side of the people around him, so I don't think anyone should judge the Tulku himself.