Author Topic: The Dalai Lama finally mentions Shugden in USA  (Read 8598 times)

WisdomBeing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2096
    • Add me to your facebook!
The Dalai Lama finally mentions Shugden in USA
« on: July 12, 2011, 08:59:39 AM »
Well, it was bound to happen - i was just waiting for it.. the Dalai Lama finally mentions Shugden...

There are no details here as to what he actually said, so if anyone finds anything, do post it on this thread.

Thanks.

http://www.thetibetpost.com/en/news/international/1867-his-holiness-the-dalai-lama-completes-preliminary-teachings

His Holiness the Dalai Lama Completes Preliminary Teachings

Tuesday, 12 July 2011 12:23    Official website of His Holiness the Dalai Lama 
 
Washington DC, USA, 11 July 2011 - On July 11, the spiritual leader of Tibet, His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyatso left early in the morning for the Verizon Center to continue his preparatory rituals. Thereafter, he visited the offices of Radio Free Asia where he was received by its President Libby Liu and other senior officials.

His Holiness first gave an interview to RFA's Mandarin service, which was conducted by Jerry Zhao, a broadcaster. The issues touched include the devolution of authority as well as the future of the Middle Way Approach.

Thereafter, His Holiness met with some members of the Broadcasting Board of Governors, Board of Radio Free Asia, and other invited guests. Kalon Tripa Samdhong Rinpoche, Special Envoy Lodi Gyari and Kalon Tripa-elect Lobsang Sangay were present during this session.

Following this, His Holiness addressed a select group of staff of Radio Free Asia, including from the Tibetan service. He began by talking about the role of the United States in this world saying that it needed to continue its spirit of sense of concern for others. He said the world's greatest democracy, United States, and the most populous democracy, India, had important role for the future development of the world. He said that education was of paramount importance in promoting the ideals that they represented.

His Holiness also said the radio stations had an important role to play. He recalled the contribution of the erstwhile Radio Free Europe in helping to educate the people on the other side of the Berlin Wall. He said now the facilities were much better than the time of the RFE and so the contribution to educate people who have no free information will be extremely helpful. His Holiness said that so far there was no Mongolian service at RFA and suggested that it may be worthwhile to begin.

His Holiness then returned to the Verizon Center. In the afternoon, he addressed a meeting of representatives of communities that follow the Tibetan Buddhist tradition.

For the last ten years leaders in the worldwide Tibetan Buddhist community have been discussing ways to work together more closely, sharing experiences and seeking common ground for the preservation of their unique cultural identities. With the encouragement of His Holiness, Buddhist leaders met in September 2010 in Ulaan Baatar, Mongolia, at the invitation of Khamba Lama Gabju Choijamts Dembreel, Abbot of the Gandan Tegchenling Monastery, to begin discussions intended to lead to the formation of a permanent structure to preserve Tibetan Buddhist cultures and identity. The cultures and lands included stretch from the Tibetan plateau and entire Himalayan region to Mongolia, the Buddhist Russian republics, and to the lands where Tibetan Buddhist traditions have taken root in more recent times.

The Ulaan Baatar meeting was quickly followed by a second conference, held the following month in Atlanta, GA.

The Washington, D.C. meeting was a continuation of this effort to strengthen traditional cultures with ties to the Tibetan forms of Buddhism, focus world attention on issues of cultural loss and develop and coordinate programs responding to the preservation of living Tibetan Buddhist cultures as well as the integrated development needs of its stakeholders, particularly those most disadvantaged.

In his address to the group, His Holiness began by saying that many of the problems in today's world are on account of a lack of moral principles. He added that it was worthwhile to promote these moral principles, which are connected to the basic human values.

His Holiness said that those people who prefer investigation rather than faith tend to show interest in Buddhism. Referring to the masters of the historical Nalanda monastery in India as professors, His Holiness said they favored investigation. His Holiness therefore felt that the Nalanda tradition, which Tibetan Buddhism follows, was of special significance at this point of time.

His Holiness said he normally made three distinctions when it came to Buddhism. First, is the subject of science that is touched in Buddhist scriptures. He said these should be considered science and not a religion. Secondly, there are issues like the concept of impermanence and interdependency, which involve philosophical viewpoints. These, he said should be considered as philosophy. The third distinction is Buddhist religion.

His Holiness said that when we discuss all these within the rubric of religion then it would be difficult to make the distinction. However, if we take up the issues separately then Buddhist science and Buddhist philosophy have universal relevance, he said.

His Holiness said that given the developments in Tibet and the Tibetan people, we depend on Mongolia to help preserve this Tibetan Buddhist tradition. His Holiness said that to do this there was the need of enthusiasm and for more meetings and discussions, like the one they are having today.

Thereafter, His Holiness continued his preliminary teachings of the two texts, Stages of Meditation by Kamalashila as well as the 37 Practices of a Bodhisattva by Thokmey Sangpo, completing the same at the end of the day. At the conclusion, His Holiness explained his position on the issue of propitiation of Shugden and asked those who do so not to receive initiations from him in the coming days.

Before returning to his hotel, His Holiness led the process of decorating the Kalachakra Mandala, which was completed today by monks of Namgyal Monastery.

In the evening Special Envoy Lodi Gyari hosted a reception in honor of Kalon Tripa Samdhong Rinpoche. It was attended by serving and retired Administration officials as well as long term friends of the Tibetan people. His Holiness the 17th Gyalwa Karmapa also graced the occasion. The Special Envoy thanked Prof. S. Rinpoche for his service and also introduced the Kalon Tripa-elect, Dr. Lobsang Sangay.

Last Updated ( Tuesday, 12 July 2011 13:03 )
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

hope rainbow

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 947
Re: The Dalai Lama finally mentions Shugden in USA
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2011, 09:25:46 AM »
At the conclusion, His Holiness explained his position on the issue of propitiation of Shugden and asked those who do so not to receive initiations from him in the coming days.

And indeed, it would be nice to know if the "position" that His Holiness explained has changed or if there are nuances to it...

Zach

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 566
Re: The Dalai Lama finally mentions Shugden in USA
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2011, 09:51:17 AM »
HHDL doesnt want shugden practitoners anywhere near him he's made himself clear time and time again no matter how wrong his reasoning is.

Mana

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 894
Re: The Dalai Lama finally mentions Shugden in USA
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2011, 11:20:35 AM »
There are many questions but to voice just a few- Those who practice Shugden may not go near Dalai Lama's teachings. But what about those who do not agree or are not even Buddhist at all. But they are allowed to join in to observe, watch, maybe just listen and not believe. How come everyone else is allowed to join except Dorje Shugden practitioners.

In the US and many other free countries in the world, there are many religions, variations of religions and even modern day witches/druids who do worship elemental spirits. They are allowed to the teachings. Why? Why is it out of everyone that are on this planet Dorje Shugden is the 'worst' 'spirit' of all? Why is he prejudiced or targeted the most. Why are his practitioners so heavily discriminated everywhere by Dalai Lama and now in free America also? Why do Americans 'allow' it?

Why can't all those who practice Shugden, Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Satanism, atheists, Druids, Shinto, Bon, Taoists, etc, etc all join in for Dalai Lama's talks. Why can't there be universal tolerance, love and acceptance of all faiths by Dalai Lama? Even if hypothetically Shugden worship is so bad, is it not all the more important to include them in the talks to 'educate' them by showing compassion,love and knowledge so maybe they will give up eventually? Ostracizing them by Dalai Lama, the man of peace and tolerance does not seem right at all. Doesn't seem that of a religious leader for the 21st Century of tolerance and acceptance. I do not wish to criticize Dalai Lama in any form, but voicing my views only. I do apologize if it seems harsh.


See what Dalai Lama says on July 11, 2011:

http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=8585&cpage=1#comment-17391

dsiluvu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1272
Re: The Dalai Lama finally mentions Shugden in USA
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2011, 06:52:24 PM »
Sounds pretty harsh that the Dalai Lama wishes not to be associated by Dorje Shugden or give any teachings what so ever to Dorje Shugden practitioners. If we could cause the break of HH vows by receiving teachings/initiations from Him just cause we are Dorje Shugden practitioners then wouldn't HH the Dalai Lama would have already broken his vows because all that HH is teaching today for example the Kalachakra initiation etc is all given/taught to HH by Trijang Rinpoche who was his tutor and who is a Dorje Shugden practitioner till now.

Hence... all those people who receive this initiation would have broken their vows also?

Basically HH is saying that His teachings' He is giving will not be effective because it came from a line of lineage Gurus that practices Dorje Shugden... so how?

Heartspoon

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 202
Re: The Dalai Lama finally mentions Shugden in USA
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2011, 04:08:25 AM »
It reminds me of a game we played when we were kids:

In this game, 3 persons answer the same questions and we know that :

one of them always says the truth
one of them always lies
one of them is a fool, he can either say the truth or say something false

On the basis of their answers, we have to find who is who.

Ready ?

In  the following investigation to establish what is best to adopt  and what is
best to avoid, HH the 14th Dalai Lama, HH Trijang Rinpoche
and the State Oracle are each giving an answer :

"It is necessary to clarify these matters. Otherwise, some of you might have your suspicions. Maybe there are still some of you who, in seeming deference to the Dalai Lama make out as though you agree and follow me in this, but who privately harbour other thoughts. Others of you may be thinking, ‘well I am not sure of the reasons, but as it is something that the Dalai Lama has instructed, I must abide by it’. I want to stress again that I do not support this attitude at all. This is a ridiculous approach. This is a position that one should come to by weighing the evidence and then using one's discernment about what it would be best to adopt and what best to avoid."

HH the 14th Dalai Lama

First "reason" presented:

"His Holiness the Dalai Lama consulted Palden Lhamo by means of divination and other methods to discover whether the propitiation of Shugden could be continued or should be prohibited."

Actually, HH the Dalai Lama consulted the State Oracle:

1rst answer of the State Oracle:

"Dorje Shugden a powerful deity, only to be worshipped by beings with high realizations. However worshipping this deity would upset Goddess Palden Lhamo (a superior protecting deity, who does not have an oracle)"

2nd answer of the State Oracle:

"the deity is appropriate to be worshipped by an individual, but not by a group"

3rd answer of the State Oracle:

"Dorje Shugden is a deity, suitable to the others, but not to the successor of the 5th Dalai Lama and those working for the Gaden Phodrang Government established by the 5th Dalai Lama."

4rth answer of the State Oracle:

Dorje Shugden is a spirit born out of a Kagyupa-monk who hated the Tibetan government, and not the incarnation of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen"

5th answer of the State Oracle:

"Dorje Shugden is the spirit of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, whose Samaya bond to the 5th Dalai Lama was not good, thus it is harmful for this government."

6th answer of the State Oracle:

"Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen was a good lama, whose works of composition are praiseworthy, therefore Dorje Shugden cannot be the spirit of such a master."

7th answer of the State Oracle:

"Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen himself was a false Tulku, who came to be among the candidates for the 5th Dalai Lama and failed to be chosen, but through clever tactics of his mother on the first Panchen Lama Choe Kyi Gyaltsen, he was recognized as the fourth reincarnation of Panchen Sonam Dragpa (the teacher of 3rd Dalai Lama), but was then born as an evil, trouble-making spirit to harm the Tibetan government."


When HH the 14th Dalai Lama presented his "proofs" to HH Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, his Tutor answered:

"Palden Lhamo would not lie to You"


As His Holiness said, the masters of Nalanda favored investigation.
Those masters only told the truth...Even a fool can say that
And now tell me: who is who ?





DSFriend

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 955
Re: The Dalai Lama finally mentions Shugden in USA
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2011, 05:19:34 AM »
There are many questions but to voice just a few- Those who practice Shugden may not go near Dalai Lama's teachings. But what about those who do not agree or are not even Buddhist at all. But they are allowed to join in to observe, watch, maybe just listen and not believe. How come everyone else is allowed to join except Dorje Shugden practitioners.

In the US and many other free countries in the world, there are many religions, variations of religions and even modern day witches/druids who do worship elemental spirits. They are allowed to the teachings. Why? Why is it out of everyone that are on this planet Dorje Shugden is the 'worst' 'spirit' of all? Why is he prejudiced or targeted the most. Why are his practitioners so heavily discriminated everywhere by Dalai Lama and now in free America also? Why do Americans 'allow' it?

Why can't all those who practice Shugden, Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Satanism, atheists, Druids, Shinto, Bon, Taoists, etc, etc all join in for Dalai Lama's talks. Why can't there be universal tolerance, love and acceptance of all faiths by Dalai Lama? Even if hypothetically Shugden worship is so bad, is it not all the more important to include them in the talks to 'educate' them by showing compassion,love and knowledge so maybe they will give up eventually? Ostracizing them by Dalai Lama, the man of peace and tolerance does not seem right at all. Doesn't seem that of a religious leader for the 21st Century of tolerance and acceptance. I do not wish to criticize Dalai Lama in any form, but voicing my views only. I do apologize if it seems harsh.


See what Dalai Lama says on July 11, 2011:

http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=8585&cpage=1#comment-17391



yes... i have often wondered how is it that the free america is allowing the promotion of religious ban and discrimination. Without sounding disrespectful in anyway, HHDL is the voice of one person...though a powerful and influential voice.

However, what is said goes to so many minds, and in this modern day and age, we have access to much information and thus we must discover for ourselves what the other great masters have to say and live by.

The link mana points to has very logical points which i appreciate very much.

kurava

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 292
    • Email
Re: The Dalai Lama finally mentions Shugden in USA
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2011, 12:16:09 PM »
Well, HH had done it again !

By "reminding" all his position in the Shugden issue he put DS in the forefront . Thank you your Holiness :D

beggar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 861
Re: The Dalai Lama finally mentions Shugden in USA
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2011, 05:12:55 PM »
Well, the biggest contradiction to all of this is with Trijang Rinpoche - the world is not permitted to practice but only Trijang Rinpoche is (if this spirit was so harmful, why would the Dalai Lama permit the holy incarnation of one of his closest tutors to be "at risk" of being harmed by this "spirit?")

So Trijang Rinpoche is a Dorje Shugden practice. This follows that he should not be allowed to be associated with the Dalai Lama or attend his events / teachings.

But it is openly known that Dalai Lama continues to personally meet and talk with Trijang Rinpoche.

so what's going on?

I smell a fish!

Helena

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 653
    • Email
Re: The Dalai Lama finally mentions Shugden in USA
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2011, 05:31:22 PM »
I just watched the youtube about this on http://www.youtube.com/user/dorjeshugden#p/a/u/0/VXovZhv-dt4

"some people deliberately opposing" HHDL's orders - that's a classic.

Well, after seeing that so many great high Lamas and Masters have returned and are well, I am convinced that Dorje Shugden does not harm anyone. On top of that, having seen the growth of all the Shugden monasteries around the world, I am more convinced that more and more people are 'deliberately opposing' HHDL's views and ban. I would say, it is because none of us has had any bad experience with practising Dorje Shugden at all. In fact, we have all received so much benefits and help from Dorje Shugden. Hence, our personal experience does not match what HHDL says.

In fact, come to think of it, I could easily decipher that what HHDL means to say is that anyone who practises Dorje Shugden is already well protected and therefore, we really do not need to come to any of HHDL's Kalachakra Initiations, etc. In fact, HHDL is encouraging that all Shugdenpas keep our samayas clean with our Gurus by keeping our Protector practice. Hence, we do not need to attend HHDL's teachings and go to HH for any empowerments, initiations, etc. We have our Gurus and the King of all Dharmapalas, Dorje Shugden. We are fine and well taken care.

The rest who do not have these two - well, they really need HHDL's help, blessings, teachings, initiations, etc.

 :D :D :D
Helena

vajrastorm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 706
Re: The Dalai Lama finally mentions Shugden in USA
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2011, 11:16:17 AM »
I guess HH the Dalai Lama has to be consistent in his stand regarding the Practice of Dorje Shugden. Hence, he has recently again reiterated, in the US, that those who are Dorje Shugden Practitioners must not receive initiations from him.

Here, I'd like to focus on what Heartspoon said. I'm not buying into his/ her game of Three Persons. Nonetheless, there are so many inconsistencies (based on heartspoon's post) regarding the way the Dalai Lama went about obtaining proof that Dorje Shugden is a harmful spirit and should not be worshipped. He said he consulted Palden Lhamo via divinations and so on. But Palden Lhamo is a "superior protecting deity who does not have an oracle".

In actual fact, he consulted the State Oracle. The State Oracle's reasons(as to why Dorje Shugden should not be propitiated) from beginning to end do not hold together because of  a lack of logical sequence and consistency. In fact what he says at the start contradicts what he says subsequently and at the end.

The great Master, HH Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche ,is the one who speaks the truth.He said (in response to the Dalai Lama showing him the 'proof' about Dorje Shugden being a spirit) "Palden Lhamo would not lie". For Palden Lhamo was never consulted.