Important questions with important answers

[Mana]

From: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=8585&cpage=1#comment-17391

John Gard says:

July 12, 2011 at 8:30 am

Dear friend: I guess you are familiarized also with Christian Church. Then imagine now after so many years they discover a biography of one saint that shows it is not so. Then church investigates, some still they don’t agree the is correct, but most of them start to see that is right, specially those really experts. So, the Pope has to really advise not to worship anymore. It is really simple, not so much to think about. We would accept. That’s it. Here it seems the same.
In case of this subject what you mention my line of reasoning is like this: anyone who goes to meet His Holiness if the relationship is neutral or positive then the relationship can be established, stronger or weaker, but if you are against Him, what is the purpose of establish such relationship, in fact you don’t want as you not follow His advise, for Him an important advise in order to protect others from harm. If it is like that then if you know about Buddhism and special this contextual situation then you can do whatever you want, but don’t expect having that initiation or whatever dharma relationship needs to be established from both sides. So I think without following the teacher advise, then your side is not complete, so I think HH is showing the way to do it, first you follow advise because you value the teacher, then there is room for that, otherwise He cannot also establish this with you, impossible. This is my thought, has to be both.
Another thing I would ask is why you put in the webpage lamas that are not doing any more the practice. Some of them never practiced even, only past lives, but never this life. Thanks.

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admin says:
July 12, 2011 at 12:04 pm  (Edit)
Dear John,

1. People who have never practiced, it’s easy not to start. No problems there.

2. People who are older than His Holiness Dalai Lama, or have received the practice from another root teacher, then there’s the conflict. They have been practicing for over 30-40 years and they have sworn to their lama they will practice till the end. Should they give up the practice because the Dalai Lama says so? They are practicing because they have faith in their teachers. They respect their teachers. Why does Dalai Lama’s spiritual advice override their own personal teachers? Status and rank should not be the criteria for spiritual authority alone.
Then what about the teachers and students of other sects? Do they all have to practice and follow the Dalai Lama’s practices although they have their own? His Holiness is a great teacher but not the only teacher. There were and are many great teachers still.
Dalai Lama does not need to repeat over and over again we do not need to go see him or participate in his events. We do not need to participate in his events. So if he’s repeating, then he is using his popularity/celebrity-hood to perhaps coerce people into not practicing what he sees as a mistake. He does not have to repeat about the ban over and over again in his sermons. There are much bigger issues to talk about.

3. If the Dalai Lama says re the disbenefits of Shugden once and purely as an advice then let all make up their own minds, that is fine. But he had the Tibetan Constitution in exile amended to say those who practice Shugden should not participate in mainstream Tibetan lives/activites/institutions eg. hospitals, employment, schools etc. In fact the monasteries have been split and separated because of this. Monks who wish to practice are not issued their travelling papers. Tibetans who practice are ostracized and made to be separate from other Tibetans who don’t practice. This is not a simple spiritual advice, but it has become a religious ban.
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=8157

4. The 5th Dalai Lama composed prayers to Shugden and build chapels that still exist. Since the fourteen Dalai Lamas are in one reincarnated mindstream, then how can one build and the other destroy. The Dalai Lama’s personal teachers, debate partners, assistant lamas from Tibet practiced Shugden. Are they all wrong?
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=341

5. Great teachers that practice Shugden have reincarnated back. Their reincarnations identified by Dalai Lama himself. If they are worshipping spirits their whole lives, then their refuge commitments broken and they cannot obtain a good rebirth by logic. The fact they are back shows clearly this practice is not harmful. The fact they are back shows their practice was pure and correct.

6. Dalai lama consulted the Shugden oracle via his teacher Trijang Rinpoche. It was Shugden who advised him to leave Tibet immediately during the hostile invasion in 1959. It is the kindness of Shugden, Dalai Lama was not killed and escaped in a timely manner. See this video clearly:
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1239

7. All the great lamas, tulkus, abbots, masters, sangha have been worshipping Shugden in Gaden, Sera and Drepung for 350 years now. Suddenly everyone is wrong? Doesn’t make sense. Many are still practicing and in secret.

8. His Holiness the previous Panchen Lama who is considered an emanation of Amitabha practiced Shugden. In his Monastery of Tashilunpo a large Shugden Chapel has been erected. Pujas go on everyday in Tashilunpo to Shugden. Is Panchen Rinpoche also wrong? His whole Monastery of thousands of monks worship.
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=220

9. If Dalai Lama investigates that Shugden is suddenly a spirit, then how he can be the only right one and all other lamas are wrong. If Dalai Lama can say his teachers are wrong, then what is to stop people from saying Dalai Lama is wrong? Dalai Lama’s disciples can also turn around and say he is wrong. Dalai Lama set the precedence. This is not Tibet. One person does not rule. It has to be democratic. Anyone can practice any religion/god/deity/supreme being they wish and no one has the right to condemn or they can be held in court for infringement of rights. If the Dalai Lama wishes to make his presence known in the US, Europe and Asia, then he must also abide by the rules, laws and freedoms that govern those countries.
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1478

Your Holiness is also worshipping and propitiating ‘spirits’ for advice in form of the Nechung Oracle. Please investigate:
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=2022
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=3934

We have nothing against His Holiness the Dalai Lama. We bear no ill will nor disrespect. But we would like him to stop infringing on our universal rights to worship as we like without him condemning our form of chosen worship. Please stop condemning. It hurts people. It creates confusion. He loses alot of prestige also. Before his ban on Shugden, there was no problems with the practice.
We will continue to practice and in fact the practice is growing tremendously in many parts of Tibet and outside of Tibet.
The pictures of the lamas we have included in our webpage are of Lamas who practice. We have clear and precise information on this no matter what their representatives inform the public. You see it’s religious ‘suicide’ to practice Shugden openly because of the unfair ban. Remember, if these lamas gave up their practice, that would mean they are not very attained or reliable. They can make mistakes in Dharma and practice. How can that be? Then that would disqualify them as reliable teachers perhaps also. So we should not follow them. The lamas included have practiced most of their lives for sure and continue to practice. The sheer number of teachers that practice should show you how prevalent the Shugden practice is and how Shugden was trusted and practiced by so many great lamas. How can Shugden be harmful. Should the ideas, practice and lineage of only one Dalai Lama be the rule for everyone. I think not, as we need variety. Different methods, different lineages, different teachers and different deities.

I leave you with these quotes from the root teacher of the 14th Dalai Lama for 30 years:

• ” But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas’ deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future.”
- Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche’s advice in Music Delighting The Ocean Of Protectors:, 1967


• “Even these days, some suspect those who rely upon and propitiate Gyalchen (Dorje Shugden) of conjuring ghosts, but it is the babbling talk of those who don’t understand the definitive meaning.”
- Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang Losang Yeshe, Symphony Delighting an Ocean of Conquerers, 1967

We hope we have helped you with our reply. Thank you.

Admin

[Big Uncle]

Dear Mana,

Thank you very much for this posting and it poses a rather interesting perspective of a Christian and the answers are amazing by revealing the complexities of the ban and the subtle religious reasons behind the impact of the ban on the Tibetan community, especially the monastics who are helplessly caught in between. Thank you so much for revealing the pain of thousands who suffer in courageous silence due to their faith and perseverance for Dorje Shugden and the lineage Lamas.

Personally, I like the ending the most because these are the sacred instructions of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and his holy words couldn't be made any clearer. It is extremely clear that what the Dalai Lama is doing is beyond what we are perceiving and it is best not to react negatively like how so many have done. For Dorje Shugden and the millions he will save in the future and the Dharma that will eventually be propagated, the Dalai Lama is sacrificing everything - his reputation, his credibility and many of his students and people who look up to (because he knows they will weather it and come out triumphant).

The Dalai Lama is pressing the monasteries the hardest because he knows they can take it and he needs to prepare them for the time when the monasteries will eventually practice and propagate Dorje Shugden once more. The monasteries will be the wellspring from which the renaissance of Buddhism will arise in this world. one last time before the Dark ages descend. All will happen because of Dorje Shugden. Hence, the Dalai Lama has placed greater emphasis on the ban than him finding a successor says much about his future plans.

[beggar]

Thank you for sharing such direct and concise insights - they are very good to reread and contemplate.

John Gard, I don't know if you are reading this.... and also for others who may be wondering the same things that he is:

This is why it is always important to check things out, clearly, with knowledge and with Dharma understanding. A lot of the reasons for the ban on dorje shugden is not logical. A lot of what the Dalai Lama has said very clearly contradicts the most basic Buddhist tenents such as Guru devotion, cause and effect and refuge.
for example:
(on guru devotion) - he defies what his teachers have taught him. In the practice of guru devotion / guru yoga, we don't just pick and choose what we believe to be correct or wrong... if we do, then why call these teachers our teachers and take refuge in them?

(on cause and effect) - they say that worshipping Dorje Shugden will send you to hell. How can this be so, karmically? Worshipping a Buddha can send you to hell? How does this happen? Also, there is proof that this is clearly not happening - hundreds of Dorje Shugden practitioners have reincarnated back,  they are unmistaken incarnations, some of them even recognised by the Dalai lama himself! DS has been practised for over 300 years - does this mean all 300 of them went to hell? it is impossible.

(on refuge) - we are taught that if we have taken refuge and are a sincere practitioner, we are protected from spirits. So how can dorje shugden still harm all those HUNDREDS of highly attained, deeply compassionate and sincere practitioners?

The illogic goes on.

However, it is also important not to bash the dalai lama and take up a hate position against him. Weigh out both sides, think clearly for yourself, gather information and gain knowledge through resources like this website, books and other Dharma writings. Most important is to be firm in your own decision and conclusions while always remaining respectful to practitioners and lamas of either side - that would be true and good for any spiritual practitioner, wouldn't it?

Hope this adds a little more to the conversation.

[prodorjeshugden]

What you have mentioned is true. 
The 5th Dalai Lama's mind would be the same as the 14th Dalai Lama's mind, but why is it that the 5th Dalai Lama practiced Dorje Shugden but the 14th Dalai Lama strongly condemns the practice of Dorje Shugden. Why is it like that? Why is it that the Dalai Lama suddenly changed his mind about Dorje Shugden? After all it was Dorje Shugden who helped him escape from Tibet which saved his life. Even Though it has been proven by many witnesses the Dalai Lama still says that it was not Dorje Shugden who saved him, instead he claims that it was Nechung(An unenlightened Dharma protector) who gave the instructions for his escape.
The Dalai Lama and the CTA both call Shugdenners spirit worshippers, but in the end it is the Dalai Lama and the CTA that is worshipping spirits. 

I hope that everyone will know who is the real spirit worshipper and the real Dharma Protector that saved the Dalai lama's life.

[Rowntree]

 

Blind faith is not recommended and we shouldn't follow anyone merely by one's fame and status. A person with status doesn't necessary be right and vice versa. We spend much time to do research on properties, cars etc. before we decide to buy any because we want to make a correct decision. We put so much efforts in making a mundane decision, shouldn't it be even more serious when it comes to making a spiritual decision? The Dalai Lama may have various reasons to manifest giving contradictory statements, but an illogical statement is still an illogical one, especially when it causes sufferings in others such as the Dorje Shugden ban.

[SabS]

Thank you Mana for your sharing and the explanations given by Admin. of dorjeshugden.com was clear and easily understood. It just doesn't make sense to me that John Gard would compare the issue of Protector Dorje Shugden to that of a Saint discovered to be otherwise. The canonisation of Saint is completely different from how enlightened Protector Dorje Shugden arose. John Gard also had the simplistic view of if we continue to practise just don't attend the Dalai Lama's activities. However, he had not gone in depth into how the ban (although seemly benign) had caused so much sufferings to the practitioners and most importantly, are attacking the credibility of Lineage Gurus that gave us the teachings, practises and blessings. That is utterly not acceptable as the purity is our lineage goes all the way to Buddha Shakyamuni.

As advised by Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche’s advice in Music Delighting The Ocean Of Protectors, we should not disparage the Dalai Lama nor any monks in robes in our actions to lift the ban on enlightened Dorje Shugden. The play between enlightened minds are beyond our ordinary perception but having said that, we will still need to take actions to lift the Shugden ban as to gain the merits to continue receiving the blessing of Dorje Shugden and our Gurus.

[vajratruth]

John Gard's use of Chritian Church itself is flawed, and if anything, it highlights even more the abuse of 'spiritual authority' by the Dalai Lama.

The Church in its entire history has never de-canonised any of its Saints. It has forbidden the veneration of some for example Saint Simon of Trent. In 1965 the Sacred Congregation of Rites officially declared that the veneration of Saint Simon to be forbidden. It DID NOT declare Saint Simon to be no longer a saint.

As a matter of fact the Christian Church does not and cannot determine who is and who isn't a saint. It can only declare that which God himself has already determined to be a saint. Therefore for the Church to ever de-canonize a saint, that would be saying that God made a mistake which the Church now has to correct. This itself would be antithetic of the nature of God. In the case of Saint Simon, he is regarded as still rightly being in heaven but for non-spiritual reasons, veneration of him was forbidden.

Similarly, it is antithetic of the entire Tibetan Buddhist principle to declare 400 years later that Dorje Shugden is a mere demon. It directly contradicts the fact and belief that the state of enlightenment is infallible. It is saying that even Buddhas and enlightened beings can suffer karma that will cast them back into the lower realms.

Duldzin Drakpa, Panchen Sonam Drakpa and Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen were recognised to be infallibly enlightened by many including the 5th and 14th Dalai Lama (before the controversy), jointly with countless Dalai Lamas, Panchen Lamas, Ganden Tris, and Mahasiddhas such as Takpu Pemavajra. How can such mind streams yield a demonic Dorje Shugden?

The only fallibility here is the Dalai Lama's weak and illogical stance.

 

[Tenzin Malgyur]

Thank you Mana for sharing these detailed explanations on the ban on Dorje Shugden. Truly agreed that one must check out the points and arguments given re the ban and be clear about it ourselves. Then, we have to make sure it is in accordance to the teachings that our dear teacher have so kindly given us.

Even if we are following the instructions of our teacher, and then it is against what His Holiness Dalai Lama have instructed, we pray that we are not sidelined and be able to access to medical treatment and attend school like other Tibetans. Medical treatment and education are basic rights for all citizens regardless of what religion they choose.

I pray that this illogical ban on Shugden will be lifted very soon.

[christine V]

Dear Mana

This is a very good explanation of the reasons H.H Dalai Lama wanted to created this ban and ruin His own reputation so much. Many of the reasons that H.H Dalai Lama gave are so illogical. From the answers, it is very touch especially the last sentences by H.H Trijang Rinpoche that we should not disparage the Dalai Lama or Dorje Shugden, but, we should check on the reasons and learn. As a Gelugpas, it is most important on learning the dharma well as thought by Lama Tsongkhapa.

Thank you

[grandmapele]

As admin pointed, all these conflicts were prophesied by Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche in his " Music Delighting The Ocean Of Protectors:, 1967". We should all heed the advice therein that we should not take sides and create negative talk about both sides of the divide. It is for all to fully understand the dharma and teachings, to be able to see through "fake news". It is to practice compassion and all that the Buddha taught and all that Lama Tsongkhapa put together in his Lamrim. One has to learn what is the pure dharma and stainless teachings of Lama Tsongkhapa.

[Celia]

Ultimately true Buddhist practitioners would not in the first place condemn another person’s religious belief, be it from the same religion or not (but more so when it’s within the same religion) After all, Buddha gave 84,000 ways to enlightenment. Thus, especially with such prophecies from highly attained erudite masters, all the more reason for people to abstain from harmful discriminatory and schismatic actions.

[dsnowlion]

As admin pointed, all these conflicts were prophesied by Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche in his " Music Delighting The Ocean Of Protectors:, 1967". We should all heed the advice therein that we should not take sides and create negative talk about both sides of the divide. It is for all to fully understand the dharma and teachings, to be able to see through "fake news". It is to practice compassion and all that the Buddha taught and all that Lama Tsongkhapa put together in his Lamrim. One has to learn what is the pure dharma and stainless teachings of Lama Tsongkhapa.

I agree with this as it is my thought exactly. It is already mentioned and predicted so when it unfolds there is no surprise. I am just surprised to see how accurate, clairvoyant HH Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche is!

Anyway any good Buddhist who practices the Dharma would have no sides and take no sides and condemn, question of judge no one and force no one to follow the Dalai Lama's view. Like what admin said many of us Dorje Shugden practitioners have nothing against the Dalai Lama, in fact some of us even love and respect Him but He of all person must surely know that the samaya with the Guru (actual tantric root Guru) is ultimate and hence students must follow. So those who decided to follow their own root Guru and the practices he gave to them is NOT doing ANYTHING WRONG and should not be judge but in fact praised! So what we see now, to have this kind of mindset and question is the poison done by the CTA creating division on their people. Using Shugden issue to cover their own failure to fulfill their people's wishes. Sad unfortunately!