Differences between experience and writing

[Serge]

Hi all,

I would like to express how much I'm stunned after reading the Wikipedia article about Dorje Shugden.

My surprise come from the fact that I cannot relate what the article says with my experience. For example, what about Kabdje Pabongka Rinpoche being a kind of integrist defending the Gelugpa tradition and willing to destroy the other traditions. I reed "Liberation in the Palm of your Hands" and "The three Principles" and it seems to me that these books were very far from this kind of attitude. The article also quote rumor that Pabonkha Rinpoche supporters destroy Nyingma monasteries and Padmasambhava statues without giving any reference to these affirmations. If this has really happen, which would be a very bad thing, I think the first thing is to give the historical reference material not only rumors. This also doesn't match with what I have seen. In 2005, I was in Katmandu to attend my beloved guru Kabdje Dagom Rinpoche teachings and there was a big statue of Padmasambhava next to him in the monastory temple. I never heard him, nor any Gelugpa lama, speaking negatively of the other traditions. I have always heard the contrary, starting with Dorje Shugden himself who said during an invocation that one must not denigrates or scorns any of the other traditions.

So there is a need for real critical studies on this subject, not only westerner scholar endorsements.

Sorry for my english.

[a friend]

Serge, I think you can add any information you deem relevant to the Wikipedia, it's an open document if I'm not mistaken.

[Serge]

I don't know exactly how it works, but one of my relatives try to send complementary informations but have been ejected.

[emptymountains]

The Wikipedia articles on Dorje Shugden, NKT, GKG, etc. have all been hijacked by haters. I myself have made a number of contributions to these articles, but then anybody can come in behind you and undo it. I've since deleted the links to these articles from my Favorites and don't bother keeping up with them anymore, as it would become a full-time job!

[vajraD]

Well in Wikipedia is known that a lot of times their info is not really accurate. But that is the site most of us will get in generally for information. Whenever we extract info from Wikipedia we should at the same time look for info from other site to backup info we have gather from Wikipedia so that we do not make any mistake and share the wrong info with others.

I know is not easy to know which is right or wrong in the internet info because the internet world is uncontrollable.

[DharmaSpace]

Dear Serge,
I think you must read the works by Kyabjye Phabongka Rinpoche, especially the holy Lamrim. Can a person who worships demons and practises schism come out with such a beneficial kind of works. Also normally the student would reflect the teacher who taught him, is Kyabjye Trijang Rinpoche a schismatic lama? I dont think from his autobiography he was giving teachings in many non Gelug monasteries while he was still in Tibet.

So what do we do when people say Dorje Shugden is a spirit when we know it is not, one way is we come to this forum and make ourselves heard, and if you can support the initiatives of this website that helps too.  The website has many ways they are using to overcome the ban of Dorje Shugden. We should not be disheartened, we must keep fighting because we know what we are doing is right. You could also start up your own website or blog to share what you think is correct.   

[Ensapa]

I like the spirit of this post. Up to now, there are no reliable proof that Gelug lamas are actually sectarian but yet there are many unfounded rumors that they are. It is interesting to note that until now, none of the rumors can be proven with concrete evidence: there are no credible names of the people involved (this pops up in most important historical records) or even the names of temples that were affected. What is funny is that nobody even verifies any of these information and they put it up so readily with no regards or whatsoever to whom it may hurt.

There is a story of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. I forgot the exact source but it was from an article by Zong Rinpoche. He mentioned that when Trijang Rinpoche gave a Dharma talk to a group of people in a certain place in Tibet, he mentioned that Gelug was one of the best ways to practice the Dharma. There were a few kaygus in this group, and later they twisted Trijang's words and said that he said that Trijang Rinpoche said that other traditions were bad. This happened during the 1940s.

As we can see, thee are many such instances where lies and taken in as the truth and nobody even cares to verify. And as such, we need to avoid criticizing other masters in case they stem from rumors or hearsay because if they are we will incur heavy karma on our side and we will hurt the many disciples that are under them. We will also turn away many future disciples who may depend on that master for spiritual salvation. The suffering of those who do not have spiritual salvation all will come back to the people who turned them away from the spiritual teacher that they are meant to be with. This action in other words is the same as killing 1000 Buddhas and effectively speeding up the demise of Buddhism as people who turn away from a teacher can never gain results in their spiritual practice.

Perhaps it is time that we take charge and challenge the wikipedia articles with such claims to remove unproven rumors. We have basis and proof that what is presented there are just unfounded rumors. Misinformation and rumors have to stop. We need to take personal responsibility to clear such misunderstandings. It could easily be said as defamatory as well and that there were no solid proof that any of the events happened, so wikipedia should take it down. It may not stop the tongues of those who believe it is true from wagging, but at least it stops the spread of such rumors.

[triesa]

A lot of times I wonder what are the motives of the people who spread these negative rumours on highly attained lama such as Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche, what do they get from defaming these high lamas?

Hard to believe, most of the defamers are buddhists as well. As buddhists, we were taught not to even criticise other religions, but some buddhists can go all the way out to create such rumours against other buddhists. This brings me to remember what Buddha Shakyamuni had once said that the fall down of buddhism in future is from its own people.

Similarly, Dorje Shugden has been criticised front, back, left and right.....mostly by buddhists who do not practice this protector and spreading rumours that Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit. I stress again that knowledge is very powerful in one's understanding of the whole story. If you are reading this thread and have doubts whether Dorje Shugden is a spirit or a buddha , please check the many articles in this website,  there is an ocean of knowledge here for those who are keen to find the truth.

[WisdomBeing]

People usually spread negative rumours out of ignorance, attachment and hatred. That is the saddest thing – they don’t even realise that they are acting from the three delusions! And they call themselves Buddhist. From these three delusions, they create schism, which is one of the heinous sins.

One of the reasons why I am on this site almost everyday is that it is a comfortable environment to be in, where negative comments about any Lamas are discouraged. There are many other forums which are purportedly Buddhist but there is so much mudslinging and rumour mongering that I feel crappy after reading the angst being aired there.

I am glad to see that there are other people like me here who simply wish to share knowledge and have some discussion but in general will be respectful of others.

[pgdharma]

As a Buddhist and if one holds the Bodhisattva vows, creating schism is one of the heinous sins. Yet so called Buddhists are spreading rumors to try to degrade highly attained masters without any concrete proof or evidence. It's a shame for them to act this way. Due to ignorance, they have created so much negative karma for themselves.

I am glad I have this website that provides so much information that is non bias for me to learn and have a better understanding of the truth. This website information is more accurate than the Wikipedia article of Dorje Shugden. Let us support this website and make it grow even bigger!

[vajratruth]

People usually spread negative rumours out of ignorance, attachment and hatred. That is the saddest thing – they don’t even realise that they are acting from the three delusions! And they call themselves Buddhist. From these three delusions, they create schism, which is one of the heinous sins.

I agree with Wisdom Being. The more I read about Dorje Shugden the more I realize that virtually all of the bad press about Dorje Shugden are politically motivated. This great practice started over 350 years ago and was embraced by many Lamas widely recognized to be highly attained. The 3 periods during which the Shugden practice experienced disruptions have been times when politics reared its head.

Stories are twisted to portray Dorje Shugden in a negative light even to the point of accusing a Buddha of killing those not loyal to him. I find it amazing that those who choose to believe this idiotic lie cannot see for themselves that the Dalai Lama who used to practice Dorje Shugden is still very much alive and kicking.

Sites like dorjeshugden.com is crucial is keeping the rumours in check. Most of the articles in the Forum support their claims and statements with facts and logic.

[Klein]

Hi all,

I would like to express how much I'm stunned after reading the Wikipedia article about Dorje Shugden.

My surprise come from the fact that I cannot relate what the article says with my experience. For example, what about Kabdje Pabongka Rinpoche being a kind of integrist defending the Gelugpa tradition and willing to destroy the other traditions. I reed "Liberation in the Palm of your Hands" and "The three Principles" and it seems to me that these books were very far from this kind of attitude. The article also quote rumor that Pabonkha Rinpoche supporters destroy Nyingma monasteries and Padmasambhava statues without giving any reference to these affirmations. If this has really happen, which would be a very bad thing, I think the first thing is to give the historical reference material not only rumors. This also doesn't match with what I have seen. In 2005, I was in Katmandu to attend my beloved guru Kabdje Dagom Rinpoche teachings and there was a big statue of Padmasambhava next to him in the monastory temple. I never heard him, nor any Gelugpa lama, speaking negatively of the other traditions. I have always heard the contrary, starting with Dorje Shugden himself who said during an invocation that one must not denigrates or scorns any of the other traditions.

So there is a need for real critical studies on this subject, not only westerner scholar endorsements.

Sorry for my english.

Dear Serge,

I just did a search on wikipedia about Dorje Shugden and there is no writing on Pabongkha Rinpoche as you claimed. Perhaps the article has been removed.

What you wrote makes sense. It is imperative that writings publicised in encyclopedias such as wikipedia must have references to their articles and without any biaise. Encyclopedias are references for research and understanding. Being neutral is very important. The following is an excerpt from wikipedia:

The following is an Ursula Bernis explains that "The different beliefs about Dorje Shugden depend not so much on historical records but on the differing interpretations of the relationship between reality and appearance."[15] Thus, Dorje Shugden as a Dharma Protector has come to be understood in two ways:
 1.A supramundane deity (Tib. 'jig rten las 'das pa'i srung ma)[16]
 2.A mundane deity (Tib. 'jig rten pa'i srung ma)[16][17][18]

Thank goodness for websites like dorjeshugden.com. The information here are backed with references to show authenticity and not mere rumours. It is also a hub for all of us to get updates about the practice, the practitioners and activities that spread the practice. The forum here enables us to share our thoughts and experiences all over the world.

Information is the key to dispelling ignorance.

[Ensapa]

Hi Klein,

that part still exists on Pabongkha's wikipedia page:

According to academic David Kay, in an account that has been much disputed by Gelugpa scholars: "As the Gelug agent of the Tibetan government in Kham (Khams) (Eastern Tibet), and in response to the Rimed movement that had originated and was flowering in that region, Phabongkha Rinpoche and his disciples employed repressive measures against non-Gelug sects. Religious artifacts associated with Padmasambhava – who is revered as a "second Buddha" by Nyingma practitioners – were destroyed, and non-Gelug, and particularly Nyingma, monasteries were forcibly converted to the Gelug position. A key element of Phabongkha Rinpoche’s outlook was the cult of the protective deity Dorje Shugden, which he married to the idea of Gelug exclusivism and employed against other traditions as well as against those within the Gelug who had eclectic tendencies."[38]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pabongka_Rinpoche

The same incident also appears in Kalu Rinpoche's autobiography where he mentioned that he heard Pabongkha Rinpoche destroying statues of Guru Rinpoche and is very sad about it. What i find appalling is why would another high lama say such things that can bring misinformation and misunderstandings to the minds of people? He knows it is a rumor but choose to put it in is autobiography anyway.

it is pretty sad that many people prefer to listen and trust rumors and misunderstandings as opposed to investigation and the truth. It is also very worth noting that the scholars who spread and talk about these are not even gelug to start with so their motives are quite clear: they are trying to suppress gelugpas from growing using dirty rumors. But in doing so they kill off their own lineage lamas, unwittingly.

I have heard of some overzealous nyigma practitioners who even "pray and have sympathy towards Pabongkha, Trijang and Zong Rinpoche" and this was pinned up in esangha for a number of years before it was taken down, the main intention was to destroy credibility and trust towards the current Gelugpa lineage so that they would go to "safer" and less controversial traditions (like their own.) It does not matter that most Buddhists these days tend to go for mystical experiences rather than study, logic and hard work these days.

Therefore this forum and website is very important to stop this degenerative process of sectarianism that is very blatant…and to prevent or minimize existing buddhist communities from going down that road.

[Positive Change]

let us all be reminded that wikipedia or any information on the internet is somewhat biased and could be misinformation. Especially wikipedia where anyone can change the information located within the page. It is far more reliant to check out websites such as this one where I for one believe the information is correct and unbiased.

The reason for this is there are often articles that are from both "camps" so to speak and the team behind this incredible website monitors that there is non name calling or derogatory comments made about any lama or lineage. This should be the way. Open sharing of information to find the truth.

Debate and sharing of opinions on the forum is another helpful way of obtaining incalculable information which we can then form our own opinion on. Do not just follow or trust blindly one source of information but seek and learn!

[Ensapa]

let us all be reminded that wikipedia or any information on the internet is somewhat biased and could be misinformation. Especially wikipedia where anyone can change the information located within the page. It is far more reliant to check out websites such as this one where I for one believe the information is correct and unbiased.

The reason for this is there are often articles that are from both "camps" so to speak and the team behind this incredible website monitors that there is non name calling or derogatory comments made about any lama or lineage. This should be the way. Open sharing of information to find the truth.

Debate and sharing of opinions on the forum is another helpful way of obtaining incalculable information which we can then form our own opinion on. Do not just follow or trust blindly one source of information but seek and learn!

As much as most people already know that information on wikipedia is not accurate, they will still believe in it. Furthermore, there is a scholar by the name of David Kay that has been pushing the idea that Pabongkha Rinpoche is sectarian in the western world by releasing a bunch of research papers that claims that he is. What that was posted here before came from those research papers. What is more interesting is that he does not have anything to back up his claims aside from approval from his peers but yet everyone accepts it as the truth.