Just because some Lamas don't is that valid reason others shouldn't?

[Mana]

Exracted from Comments Section of: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=3196

munindhara says:
August 26, 2011 at 8:35 pm

If Shugdhen group were saying that Phabongkha, Trijang Rinpoche and Zong Rinpoche are practicing and due to this reason Shugdhen practice is valid?
Then on the other side, Phurcho Ngawang Jampa, Trichen Ngawang Chogdhen, Changkya Rolpai Dorjee, Fifth Dalai Lama, thirteen Dalai Lama and Current Dalai lama they all strickly avoided and suggested others to practice it, why?? These all are Gelugpa lamas and they all are great masters during their time.


**********************************

Dear Munindhara,

Then those who wish to practice should practice, and those who don’t and are in power should not ban, say negative things and do not discourage.

Purchok Ngawang Jampa & Changkya Rolpai Dorje did not practice Vajrakilaya, Wrathful Guru Drolod, Nakpo Tromo, Thamthing Yangsang,  Lamdre or many practices associated with other schools of Buddhism also. Just because they did not practice, does not mean those practices are not valid. So just because they did not practice does not mean they may disparage those practices also.

Some great masters practiced Dorje Shugden and some don’t. The ones that do practice Shugden should be allowed to in peace and those who don’t then don’t. It’s called respect, religious freedom and mutual understanding.

There are high lamas on both camps, so the solution, do not disparage and allow practice just like in any other situation. Whose realizations are higher? Cannot say. Panchen Lama practices. Dalai Lama does not. Panchen Rinpoche is the emanation of Amitabah. Dalai Lama is the emanation of Avalokitesvara. Who is more attained?

No Govt or religious figure should disparage any religious practice or worship in today’s world. It is bad leadership. It is bad policy. Imagine religious leaders in Japan, America, France, Canada saying this practice is good and that is not so not allowed. What a big hooha that would create? Do you think the public from those countries would tolerate such laws or remarks? So why should HHDL ban or speak against any practice especially those of his own teachers. HHDL and Tibetan govt must be progressive and not speak against any practice within Tibet and outside. That is good policy. Full stop. 

Mana

[Zach]

The Dalai lama's havent been lineage holders so whether they practise or not doesnt directly affect students of lineage holders.

[LosangKhyentse]

The Dalai lama's havent been lineage holders so whether they practise or not doesnt directly affect students of lineage holders.

His Holiness the 7th Dalai Lama Gyalwa Kelsang Gyatso was a lineage holder of Yamantaka. Today when people engage in the long Yamantaka practice daily, they recite the liturgy of invoking the lineage lamas blessings and 7th Dalai Lama Kelsang Gyatso is invoked as part of the sadhana. His name is recited in the liturgy.

The current Dalai Lama is the lineage holders of Kalacakra. HHDL recieved this practice with full commentary/lung  from HH Kyabje Ling Rinpoche, the Senior Tutor.
TK

[dsiluvu]

We should just be allowed to do our practice, be it Dorje Shugden or another in peace.

Those who don't, agree to disagree and respect them, those who do respect them.

Just like how we respect the Churches, Mosque, Hindu, Taoist Temples, etc... and their Priests, Pastors, teachers.

We do not go to them and condemn them let alone "ban" them... it will be bloody insanity to do that and Buddha definitely did not teach such conduct. 

Seeing the fault in others is like a mirror seeing the fault in ourselves, why not change that perspective and see the good in others and ourselves. After all everything is just mere perceptions of the mind.

[DharmaDefender]

There are high lamas on both camps, so the solution, do not disparage and allow practice just like in any other situation. Whose realizations are higher? Cannot say. Panchen Lama practices. Dalai Lama does not. Panchen Rinpoche is the emanation of Amitabah. Dalai Lama is the emanation of Avalokitesvara. Who is more attained?

Your lama is more attained, doh

Essentially it goes back to the childhood argument - if Jimmy can do it, why cant I do it too? If Jimmy doesnt have to do it, why do I have to do it? My mum used to throw back at me - well, if Jimmy jumps off a bridge, do you want to as well? Shut me up sharpish!

Just because someone else does it, doesnt mean YOU have to engage in it if it is not right for you... and just because its not right for you, doesnt mean its not right for other people either.

Essentially at the end of the day, I took refuge with my lama meaning I said "Okay, you know whats best for me. I trust my life and spiritual practice to you." When I made that kind of commitment, it meant following his instructions all the way and not being selective about what I want to practise... otherwise if Im going to pick and choose like that, what was the point of taking refuge? I might as well as have picked and chosen without a lama?

[thor]

@Munindhara:
Chenrezig "says" Dorje Shugden is not a Buddha. But Heruka (Pabongka Rinpoche) and Vajrayogini (Trijang Rinpoche) say that he is. How can either be wrong? Both are enlightened, both are Buddhas, both CANNOT be wrong.

Different Lamas will give different teachings and different advice, but it does not mean that the different paths will diverge. If the teacher is qualified, all paths will converge at our ultimate destination, Enlightenment. So Dalai Lama gives Kalachakra, Gangchen Rinpoche gives NgalSo tantric healing, Geshe Kelsang gives Tsongkapa and Dorje Shugden sogtae, etc .... but all wil be valid.

In the Bodhisattva vows, it says not to disparage the teachings of the Hinayana vehicle, nor to say that the Mahayana or Vajrayana tradition is better than the Hinayana one. Yet some of the teachings or vows of the Hinayana appear to be in opposition or in conflict with those of the Mahayana. Yet both come from Lord Buddha! How is that possible? You can draw parallels with the current situation on Dorje Shugden...

[Manjushri]

I agree with what has been said.. those who feels its right and wants to practise, then do so, those who don't then don't.

It's like going to many different doctors, no? I may find this doctor extremely good, and he is able to cure me with whatever sickness I have, but you might not find him good as he cannot cure your sickness in the way that you want him to. Either way, a doctor is a doctor and he has the ability to cure, but whether or not he is right for you depends on the individual. But you have the right to choose, which doctor you want to go to, and not be discriminated against.

You may be advised to go to different doctors, similarly have different practices, but ultimately the choice falls upon you, your faith, devotion and belief.

We're in the 21st century, if you are shunned, killed, segregated and discriminated against because you practise something that you have 100% conviction in, then the people of our time have mentalities that have not progressed at all, I feel. There's no bad or good, if Dorje Shugden can help you, as results have proven, then it is in your hands to follow or not.

Dorje Shugden emanated specifically to protect Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings.. HHDL is originally Gelug... why would HHDL go against a sworn promise to protect the gelug tradition?

[Dolce Vita]

Your lama is more attained, doh

Essentially it goes back to the childhood argument - if Jimmy can do it, why cant I do it too? If Jimmy doesnt have to do it, why do I have to do it? My mum used to throw back at me - well, if Jimmy jumps off a bridge, do you want to as well? Shut me up sharpish!

Just because someone else does it, doesnt mean YOU have to engage in it if it is not right for you... and just because its not right for you, doesnt mean its not right for other people either.

Essentially at the end of the day, I took refuge with my lama meaning I said "Okay, you know whats best for me. I trust my life and spiritual practice to you." When I made that kind of commitment, it meant following his instructions all the way and not being selective about what I want to practise... otherwise if Im going to pick and choose like that, what was the point of taking refuge? I might as well as have picked and chosen without a lama?
[/quote]

Totally agree with this comment. Instead of spending time arguing who is right or who is wrong, why not just focus in whatever practice our Guru has given us? It is more important to examine a Guru's behaviour and his lineage than 'judging' him from his practice. Anyway, who are we to judge any of the high monks?

[DharmaSpace]

Pabongka Rinpoche is an emanation of the great Scholar Changkya Rolpai Dorje so using Changkya Rolpai Dorjee does not mean anything. Can high masters once they become realized degenerate after a few incarnations? Does not make sense. I dont think real gurus will teach their students to disparage what they do not practise. Fine you have your practise, we have ours. 

[DharmaSpace]

The bio of Changkya Rolpai Dorje ( such a cool sounding name)
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=2943

[vajrastorm]

In the end, it comes down to Guru Devotion. If my Guru has given me the practice of Dorje Shugden and I have implicit faith and trust in my Guru, as he has in his Guru who gave him the practice, then it is right and valid to practice Dorje Shugden. On top of that, from my own personal point of view, I have been immeasurably helped by the Protector. I feel he is here all the time with me, I feel strongly his presence all the time. I don't know why, but when, for instance, I'm doing my Medicine Buddha practice, I see him as one with my Lama and Medicine Buddha in my visualization.

[WisdomBeing]

munindhara says:
August 26, 2011 at 8:35 pm

If Shugdhen group were saying that Phabongkha, Trijang Rinpoche and Zong Rinpoche are practicing and due to this reason Shugdhen practice is valid?
Then on the other side, Phurcho Ngawang Jampa, Trichen Ngawang Chogdhen, Changkya Rolpai Dorjee, Fifth Dalai Lama, thirteen Dalai Lama and Current Dalai lama they all strickly avoided and suggested others to practice it, why?? These all are Gelugpa lamas and they all are great masters during their time.

Good point raised by Dharmaspace re Changkya Rolpai Dorjee. Also to add - the Fifth Dalai Lama wrote a praise to Dorje Shugden, built Trode Khangsar which was the first chapel to Dorje Shugden and made a statue of Dorje Shugden by hand. The 11th Dala Lama enthroned Dorje Shugden as a Protector of the Yellow Hat Teachings, the current Dalai Lama also practised Dorje Shugden for many years. In any case, the Dalai Lamas are all the same mindstream. So it doesn't make sense that just because the 14th Dalai Lama stopped practising, it negates that he practised before and in previous lives.

I also agree with what Mana replied to munindhara as to the point that different Dharma practitioners will have different practices and just because someone does not do that particular practice, it doesn't make that practice a bad one. I prefer to look at the quality of the practitioners and the lineage masters of Dorje Shugden are impeccable by my book!

[DharmaSpace]

WB i love it when the 14th Dalai Lama says in the videos I am continuing what the 5th Dalai Lama had set out to do.

So the 14th Dalai Lama is going to do acts similar to writing a praise to Dorje Shugden, build Trode Khangsar made the statue of Dorje Shugden by hand so the 14th Dalai Lama is going to make Dorje Shugden world class and world famous haha. 

[WisdomBeing]

Dear Dharmaspace,

Yes - this is what I find interesting. The Fifth Dalai Lama condemned Dorje Shugden at first, then he realised the error of his ways and recognised him as an enlightened protector. Thus if the 14th Dalai Lama is following the Great Fifth and has a particularly strong connection with him, as the 14th Dalai Lama has often said before, then perhaps he will do the same and one day tell the world that he was wrong. After all, he told the world that he was wrong to practice Dorje Shugden before. if he was wrong before, he can be wrong again!

[triesa]

Dear Dharmaspace,

Yes - this is what I find interesting. The Fifth Dalai Lama condemned Dorje Shugden at first, then he realised the error of his ways and recognised him as an enlightened protector. Thus if the 14th Dalai Lama is following the Great Fifth and has a particularly strong connection with him, as the 14th Dalai Lama has often said before, then perhaps he will do the same and one day tell the world that he was wrong. After all, he told the world that he was wrong to practice Dorje Shugden before. if he was wrong before, he can be wrong again!

WB, I like that logic you brought up, if DL was wrong because of practising DS, he could be wrong again....

Whatever color of the raincoat you choose, be it red, blue, yellow, white or green, it will protect you from the rain and keep you dry. So choose the color you like and be happy for others who choose theirs.

If buddhism teaches us not to discriminate other religions of different beliefs and very often totally different practices, then it only make sense and logic that we should not segregate or discriminate different practices within our tradition or lineage.