Purification

[DharmaDefender]

I was reading the posts on this thread (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1343.0) and something caught my attention. triesa wrote "I was also told that the constant wiping of the face by the oracle himself  with the red cloth is to clear the obstacles of the crowd." Got me thinking about purification and the different avenues, basically that I can purify my own karma and my guru-yidam-protector can help me. So what methods does your lama use to help you to purify your karma?

[dorjedakini]

My Lama use to make us do many cleaning work, prepare food, run errands, a scolding from my Lama.....there are many ways my Lama use to purify my  karma. If we trust our Guru and view our Guru as Buddha then whatever assignment our Guru gave to us is for us to purify and create merit.

My Lama told us before, if the Lama uses peaceful method, the student will stay, as the ego is not hurt, but sometimes the student has to went through the karma, suffer and sometimes maybe death. When uses wrathful method, chances of the student running away is there, but if the student accept it, trust the Guru, then the student might not even need to experience the karma him or herself.

[iloveds]

I was reading the posts on this thread (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1343.0) and something caught my attention. triesa wrote "I was also told that the constant wiping of the face by the oracle himself  with the red cloth is to clear the obstacles of the crowd." Got me thinking about purification and the different avenues, basically that I can purify my own karma and my guru-yidam-protector can help me. So what methods does your lama use to help you to purify your karma?

Can you confirm the statement that the wiping of the face by the oracle is actually the clearing of obstacles for the crowd in attendance? I have never heard this before and have always wanted to know why he keeps doing that too.

As for different methods, wrathful is best but used in relation to the persons level of mind and practice. Wrathful is always a sensitive method. Definitely skillful on the Lama's behalf as all it takes is for the practitioner to think wrong views and they will run, be unable to accept and ask why why why incessantly.

To be able to view any wrathful means by our Guru as purification and to not run but accept is a transformation  of mind and a good sign that our practice has reached another level.

[Ensapa]

I have heard that some lamas may use very wrathful means to purify the actions of certain students who have very heavy negative karma. The Lama may scold the student, or he may throw things at them or beat them or subject them to embarrassment, but all of them are done with good intentions and at the end of the day the student becomes more resilient in his or her Dharma practice. This is what I have seen and heard so far.

[kris]

There were once I was in the monastery in India and had the privilege to visit Dorje Shugden taking trance. While all the villagers came to get blessing from Him. For one of the villagers, Dorje Shugden came down from His throne and started beating the villager (I think is the red cloth). It took a 5 or 6 other villagers to force him down onto the floor while Dorje Shugden is purifying him.

The villager was then put to a side to rest, and after about 30 minutes, he woke up and no hurt. The other villagers were not surprised at all with the beating. I would assume it is quite common way for Dorje Shugden to purify people.

Apparently, the villager was possessed by an evil spirit. Other villagers brought him to Dorje Shugden to help him...

[Barzin]

I guess there are many kinds of purification.  It all depends on the level of mind we are in.  Some are being purified without even notice!  This definitely only our lama know when to do it and how to do it because he is the one who can see clearly our karma.  Whether peaceful or wrathful means, I thinking if we can see our daily actions, making efforts for offerings and dharma center's work; that to me is the biggest purification because we are gaining merits to direct counter to our negative karma.  What use is there when your lama purifies but on the other hand you don't transform and repeating and creating more negative karma???

Of course some people will have very bad karma to not receive any purification from the lama.  That is because their negative karma already shadow them.. Any form of purification they can not take it.  But the lama is compassion enough to let him or her stay in the center at least to get some blessings and some merits even though they have endless obstacles and sometimes create problems for people.

I think purification is very personal, a very personal act between your guru and yourself.  Each has a way.  Therefore, guru devotion is vital after accepting a guru disciple relationship.

[Big Uncle]

I was reading the posts on this thread (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1343.0) and something caught my attention. triesa wrote "I was also told that the constant wiping of the face by the oracle himself  with the red cloth is to clear the obstacles of the crowd." Got me thinking about purification and the different avenues, basically that I can purify my own karma and my guru-yidam-protector can help me. So what methods does your lama use to help you to purify your karma?

Dear DharmaDefender,

I heard about that too and this is with regards to a peaceful trance with Duldzin entering the oracle. He wipes his face not purify our obstacles in general but to wipe away obscurations so that he would be able to deliver clear and accurate advice to us. The real purification comes with our own practice and the skillful means that our Lama puts us through. Purification can come in many ways and when we do Dharma work, Dharma practice, it is one form of purification. There were already many examples given here and I think general forms of purification must be followed by the 4 opponent powers like regret, remedy, refuge to the 3 jewels and resolution not to repeat the mistake or misdeed.

Within the Protector practice itself, there is a special confession part called kawang or kangshak and this is the part we visualized our negative karma in the form of a man and the man is killed and graphically offered to the Protector along with various other wrathful offerings and also the recitation of the sacred verses. This is powerful purification and generation of merit for the practitioner. This is one formal purification practice that is very powerful as it is done in reliance on Dorje Shugden.

[Ensapa]

I guess there are many kinds of purification.  It all depends on the level of mind we are in.  Some are being purified without even notice!  This definitely only our lama know when to do it and how to do it because he is the one who can see clearly our karma.  Whether peaceful or wrathful means, I thinking if we can see our daily actions, making efforts for offerings and dharma center's work; that to me is the biggest purification because we are gaining merits to direct counter to our negative karma.  What use is there when your lama purifies but on the other hand you don't transform and repeating and creating more negative karma???

Of course some people will have very bad karma to not receive any purification from the lama.  That is because their negative karma already shadow them.. Any form of purification they can not take it.  But the lama is compassion enough to let him or her stay in the center at least to get some blessings and some merits even though they have endless obstacles and sometimes create problems for people.

I think purification is very personal, a very personal act between your guru and yourself.  Each has a way.  Therefore, guru devotion is vital after accepting a guru disciple relationship.

I am curious about the part where some people have very bad karma to not receive any purification - Guru devotion is a state of mind, it is how much you trust your Lama that he will only benefit you and nothing else. If the person's karma is so bad and they receive obstacle after obstacle, then wouldnt the Lama would find some way to help that person as long as that person has faith in the Lama? I dont really believe the sentence "cannot take it" because if the said person chose to remain in the center instead of running away, it would be a clear indication that he or she is serious and he or she trusts the Lama to bring benefit no matter how his or her's actions may be, or how badly the negative karma and obstacles manifest.

[WisdomBeing]

Not having a Guru at the moment, my understanding of the Guru student relationship is an intellectual one. From my readings, the Guru will help purify your karma through various means. I have asked several Tibetans about the wrathful method and they say that they hadn't heard about it. Is this wrathful method just in the Tibetan environment? I had asked a friend who had invited me to HH Gangchen Rinpoche's centre about HH Gangchen Rinpoche and he said that Gangchen Rinpoche never gets angry. On the other hand, i had read somewhere that HH Dalai Lama said himself that he gets angry, though the Dalai Lama didn't specify if it was at Tibetans or westerners.

I have often thought how i would feel if someone were to scream at me. I have read that the teachers do that to lower your ego. The funny thing is I know people who have been screamed at by their parents or partners so much that they become very demoralised and have zero self confidence and even suicidal. Does that mean they have no ego? Is that what is the purpose of people reducing your ego? It's like the concentration camps where they scream abuse at you all day. Granted that the Guru is meant to be a Buddha and has the ulterior motive of benefiting you as opposed to a secular person who screams at you, but what if the result is the same - that you just think you are shit and would rather shoot yourself in the head?

Perhaps those who have experienced a teacher screaming at them could share how they feel. Do you feel purified?

[Ensapa]

Not having a Guru at the moment, my understanding of the Guru student relationship is an intellectual one. From my readings, the Guru will help purify your karma through various means. I have asked several Tibetans about the wrathful method and they say that they hadn't heard about it. Is this wrathful method just in the Tibetan environment? I had asked a friend who had invited me to HH Gangchen Rinpoche's centre about HH Gangchen Rinpoche and he said that Gangchen Rinpoche never gets angry. On the other hand, i had read somewhere that HH Dalai Lama said himself that he gets angry, though the Dalai Lama didn't specify if it was at Tibetans or westerners.

I have often thought how i would feel if someone were to scream at me. I have read that the teachers do that to lower your ego. The funny thing is I know people who have been screamed at by their parents or partners so much that they become very demoralised and have zero self confidence and even suicidal. Does that mean they have no ego? Is that what is the purpose of people reducing your ego? It's like the concentration camps where they scream abuse at you all day. Granted that the Guru is meant to be a Buddha and has the ulterior motive of benefiting you as opposed to a secular person who screams at you, but what if the result is the same - that you just think you are shit and would rather shoot yourself in the head?

Perhaps those who have experienced a teacher screaming at them could share how they feel. Do you feel purified?

There are people who are being shout at and have their self confidence broken into nothing by normal people who have a negative motive and they cannot stand up again for the rest of their lives because they cannot do so without knowing how is it like to stand up. The reason why they ended up that was is because the people who put him down did so with the sole intent of putting that person down, and breaking down that person so that the person would be submissive. It's different than the Guru breaking the ego of a person, the ego that is the source of self cherishing and the cause of all negative qualities. When the Guru breaks down the ego of a student, he does it with the intent and motivation for the student to improve and somehow the student will be able to recover.

[pgdharma]

The root of guru devotion is the most important thing that determines how quickly we reach enlightenment, how strongly we need, rely upon and devote our self to your guru—the stronger, the quicker.

As what Drogön Tsangpa Gyare (see Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand, p. 262) said: If the guru beats you, it is an initiation. "Dung dak chung wa wang po yin": If the guru scolds, you, it's a wrathful mantra pacifying the obstacles to practicing the Dharma or to enlightenment. You see, when there are obstacles in life, normally people recite wrathful mantras for pacification, and perform wrathful pujas. It is the same if the guru scolds you. This is the wrathful mantra pacifying the obstacles to achieving enlightenment. Also, if there are obstacles that need to be eliminated, the scolding eliminates them. Think that your teacher is showing this aspect purposefully to purify your mind, to guide you and bring you to enlightenment.

Sometimes the guru is so happy with us, but externally shows the aspect of being unhappy, beats us, scolds us, but also sometimes shows the external aspect of being happy, but inside is not happy. This shows that our Guru is compassionate to use different skilful methods to help us purify our negative karma depending on the level of our mind and the intensity of our karma.

[Ensapa]

The root of guru devotion is the most important thing that determines how quickly we reach enlightenment, how strongly we need, rely upon and devote our self to your guru—the stronger, the quicker.

As what Drogön Tsangpa Gyare (see Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand, p. 262) said: If the guru beats you, it is an initiation. "Dung dak chung wa wang po yin": If the guru scolds, you, it's a wrathful mantra pacifying the obstacles to practicing the Dharma or to enlightenment. You see, when there are obstacles in life, normally people recite wrathful mantras for pacification, and perform wrathful pujas. It is the same if the guru scolds you. This is the wrathful mantra pacifying the obstacles to achieving enlightenment. Also, if there are obstacles that need to be eliminated, the scolding eliminates them. Think that your teacher is showing this aspect purposefully to purify your mind, to guide you and bring you to enlightenment.

Sometimes the guru is so happy with us, but externally shows the aspect of being unhappy, beats us, scolds us, but also sometimes shows the external aspect of being happy, but inside is not happy. This shows that our Guru is compassionate to use different skilful methods to help us purify our negative karma depending on the level of our mind and the intensity of our karma.

That is what i feel as well when it comes to Guru devotion and also the part where the Guru shows the external aspect that he is unhappy when he is happy and vice versa to tame our minds. It is great that you have highlighted the fact that the Guru's appearances may not be what it seems, in order to tame the student and to make the student's mind and life change or to break off the continuity of certain negative karma on the student because for ordinary people like me it can be quite hard to think further because we have been conditioned by society into thinking that people are all that we see they are and not look deeper.

[Dondrup Shugden]

Purification comes in many forms, sometimes body illness and sometimes accidents.  Whenever we embark on anything big that benefits many purifications comes.

A very informative article to read.