Dearest Hope Rainbow,
Firstly, thank you so much for your response. Your very wise replies has really got me thinking too.
You have been very patient and concise with me.
My pleasure really.
Thank you for entertaining my thoughts and making me think, I appreciate your posts very much.
You brought up 2 new topics that would be worth starting anew really:
1. apologies,
2. Buddhism as a philosophy.
I would like to add my opinion to the part where you mentioned about sometimes not having to apologize because one does not want to encourage another in their wrong views.
I feel sometimes, it is very important to win the heart of a person.
Even if he is wrong in his wrong view, i feel its still necessary to apologize.
The person with a wrong view will always have the view he has.
As Galileo Galelei once said : 'You can never teach a man anything, you can only guide it to find it within himself'. Being inspired by that wise advice.
I feel its most important to earn the respect and love of a person before you can guide him to have his wrong views corrected.
So I think its important to win the person over first before we can guide them.
Apologizing is always flattering to the other persons' ego.
Its like having to be wrong to be right.
Dear Shugdentruth,
I like what you say above, for it cares for the other person.
IS MY APOLOGY HELPING THE OTHER PERSON?Yet, I still think that sometimes, apologizing is not the best way, though I don't mean this to be mainstream or apply in general. Mostly, we should apologize of course.
Though sometimes, it may happen that not apologizing has a more beneficial effect on someone's mind, for it might make them think.
For example, if someone ALWAYS receives apologies from EVERYONE, then it might make that person think.
There is no right and wrong here, only a matter of skillful means I think.
I remember once I was travelling back from a place where there had been an international military reunion of some kind, and the plane was so full I actually got upgraded in business class.
There there were military high ranking people from different countries, some big shots obviously.
One of them, travelling with an attendant realized that his attendant was not seated next to him, so he went towards the man who was seated next to his attendant and asked if he would exchange his seat with him. That man was seated at a window and declined, saying that he would prefer to keep his window seat.
I saw that with my own eyes.
What happened was simply flabbergasting! The military high ranking guy SUDDENLY had his blood boiling, his eyes injected with fury and he literally yelled at the man that never in his life had he encountered such rudeness.
He yelled like how you would expect a military person to yell, with power, with articulation, with... HABIT, but I can tell you his anger was real.
The whole business class cabin turned its attention to the event and the air hostess had a hard time to calm him down and even had to threaten to disembark him if he did not calm down.
Obviously this person is so used to never be refused anything, he is surrounded by people who's duty is to say "yes sir". And when that happens to someone who does not have wisdom, then it is possible that the person is transformed in a monster of self-righteousness.
So I say, in this instance, and if I had been the person seated at the window, I still would not apologize, for it would simply not help that person.
Would we agree on that one?
We may disagree actually, because the only reason I would see it would be beneficial to apologize (in that case) is if that apology brings about something else, a conversation for example, something that can help that man come down from his high horse and think deeper.
This brings me to my second point:
IS MY APOLOGY SINCERE?I think this answers this debate on apology, and I am sure we will agree on this, because it is exactly what you are saying in your post.
I'll just rephrase it here with my words.
How sincere am I when I apologise?
In other words, what is my motivation?
on a scale of 1 to 10 (*), how well does my apology score?
(*)
1 = I do it with only my interest in mind
10 = I do it only with the other person's interest in mind
scale 10 = sincere / scale 1 = not sincere (rather hypocritical)
Let's take a few examples:
I am at the back in a lift full of people, and I want to go out and I say "sorry", "sorry" so that people move out, how does that score?
Can I translate this with: "get the $#@&* out of my way people"
We often even mean it with the tone we say "sorry" in a situation like this.
Though you might say, this is not really related to an apology.... Maybe not but it uses its vocabulary, right?
Are we bad people when we do that? That's really not my point, all I am trying to do is analyse how my mind works.
Another situation, I am in a shopping center, I look at a display and I take a step back to have a better look. As I do that I walk -full on- on someone's foot behind me, hurting that person.
The moment I turn back, and without even seeing that person yet what is my train of thoughts?
I don't know about yours, but my train of thoughts is this: "ohooo, I am in trouble" (notice the
I).
Do I really worry about the person's foot? No, I don't, it's only a little bobo anyway right!
I worry about
how much trouble this could bring me!
The proof of that is here: I will apologise with little effort or with great effort depending on the trouble I imagine that I am in. If the owner of that foot is a tall muscle man with dark eyes, or if it is the guy sweeping the floor, or if it is a policeman!
With the policeman I would apologise with my best looking "humility and apologetic face", I might even offer to get him some doughnuts...
If it is the guy sweeping the floor, I would not even be surprised if it is HIM that apologise for putting his foot under mine... sighhhh...
For those of us that mark "1" on the scale, they would even be upset with those people that happened to put their feet under theirs... sighhhhhh....
When I apologise to my wife / husband / partner, why do I do so?
Do I want something?
Do I want them to look at me with respect again?
Do I want them to come back?
Or am I concerned about how they feel?
Of course some of us score better on that scale 1 to 10, and I might even think that I am better than that right, but does anyone score 10?
How sincere is my apology?
Do I apologise to get out of trouble, or because I really care for the person in front of me?
To compliment your comment about merits being created whether or not the person is a buddhist. You have made me realize that buddhism is really not so much a religion but a wholesome way of life that will bring true happiness.
Because buddha was just a man like all of us.
He made the effort to do virtue, he was brave enough to reach within himself to find the truth.
Was kind enough to share it with all of us.
Thank you lord Shakyamuni. Tayatha Om Muni Muni Mahamuni Shakyamuni Ye Soha.
I agree with your comment that Buddhism is a wholesome way of life that will bring true happiness, though I would like to debate your comment that Buddhism is not so much a religion.
Buddhism CAN BE less than a religion, it can, but ultimately that would be missing the point.
Buddhism can help people to deal with anger, with jealousy, with disappointment, with attachments, with finding a relativity in what we experience, etc... It can help their relationships, their working environment, etc...
And I think a lot of people, especially westerners, find Buddhism attractive because of these aspects and they do not focus so much on a) rebirth, b) karma, c) enlightenment, d) rituals, e) even Buddhas.
In fact, I have met people that leave that to "THE MONKS."
When we treat Buddhism like that, we call it a philosophy - not a religion.
And I think it is okay, because the people that I have heard talking about Buddhism in this way are often people that would not want to even look at a Buddha statue if they thought of it as "religious."
So at least it allows them to take a bit of the teachings in their lives and create imprints and merits to receive more teachings and understand / practice them deeper in the future.
So I never debate with them in the way I debate here about it, I say, yes, Buddhism is a philosophy (even if we know it is more than that, it also is a philosophy for if it is more it can be less too).
I also know of people that have a fascination for Buddha statues as decorative objects, and when I meet these people I also encourage that practice of Buddhism (now reduced to an interior design exercise), for it is better than nothing and it is guaranteed will trigger something in the future.
This is why I am personally not against the "BuddhaBar thing".
Buddhism is a religion because it deals with more than this life / this body.
This is common to all religions, it defines it, religion is supra-mundane.
If we remove the aspect of past and future lives (or at least a future life - as thought in some religions), it becomes mundane, it becomes a philosophy, it becomes worldly.
This is very difficult to do with monotheistic religions because we can't remove GOD from the teachings.
So they have more difficulties "becoming philosophies".
But with Buddhism it starts with a human, Buddha Shakyamuni, on a journey to enlightenment, and as you say, it makes the Buddhist teachings relevant at every stage of the progress of that human going towards enlightenment.
Having said that, I would love to call Buddhism a science though (**), because for me it is a science, and I say the most advanced of all scientific research.
But where we are now, it is more appropriate to call it a religion, and sometimes a philosophy.
(**)
In sanskrit there is no word for "religion", other than "Dharma".
And what is Dharma? It is the exposition of the laws of the universe, laws that have been tested, meditated on , realized and proven.
The only difference with science is this: we are not suppose to hear it from the mouth of the specialist and then believe it, we are supposed to hear it and then prove it to ourselves through inner contemplation, analysis, practice and realisation.
The proof is obtained there, not from a thesis.
I am my scientific laboratory.