2003 What Dalai Lama told Trijang Rinpoche

[Galen]

The Dalai Lama leaves it to Trijang Rinpoche to decide to abandon Shugden and adopt Nechung. But when you read it carefully, does Trijang Rinpoche really have the choice to give up Shugden or no choice? If he does not give up, no full ordination and Geshe examinations. What do you think?

Mana

HHDL leaves no choice to Trijang Rinpoche. It sounds like more of a threat than a choice. However, what Trijang Rinpoche did is a clear example of guru devotion where he does not abandon the practices given to him by his root guru. And the fact HHDL is threatening Trijang Rinpoche is a break in his guru samaya.

Maybe it is true that HHDL is testing the young Trijang Rinpoche on whether he could be easily swayed and be stable in his practices given by lineage gurus.

There will come a time where Trijang Rinpoche will shine again and not stuck in some corner. As of now, Trijang Rinpoche is making decisions on his own with regards to the happenings in Trijang Ladrang in Gaden. And all DS practitioners does respect him as there are pictures of the young Trijang Rinpoche on his throne in Shar Gaden. His following is becoming bigger and bigger.

[Ensapa]

I am pretty positive that Trijang Rinpoche is showing us all an example that nothing can stop him from practicing his commitments,  not even such threats from HHDL. But later, did HHDL not allow Trijang from practicing Shugden? what does this tell us? it shows that we need to be strong and not give up for "easier" circumstances in exchange for our own Dharma practice. All this is a teaching. If HHDL did not  ban we would not be able to observe this quality of Trijang Rinpoche.

[valeriecheung]

HHDL been hated by many monks,nuns and ds practitioner, another 1,000 peoples hate him or like him i think is no differences. DL purposely let people talk about this topic, even his root guru current reincartion no matter difficult situation arise never give up DS practise.

From this story, i have learn...

1) High lama like trijang rinpoche never give up DS, Why should i !
2) never give up practises given by master guru.
3) guru devotion

High lama every action always sending us messages to meditate.

[Dolce Vita]

Apart from giving us an example how important it is to keep our faith and promise to our guru. I think HHDL and Trijang Rinpoche have a bigger plan. If Trijang Rinpoche 'appears' to be in conflict with HHDL and not being a monk gives him the convenience to travel as a layman. Combining these 2 factors, won't it be easier for Trijang Rinpoche to spread Tsongkhapa Doctrine in China again? Looking at the age of HHDL and the situation between him and Chinese Government, I doubt HHDL will be able to go back to Tibet or China to give teachings.

[triesa]

Abandoning one's practices from one's root guru is like asking the person to abandon one's parents totally. 

HHDL said to Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche that it is entirely up to his judgement to abandon or continue his protector practice. The decision made by the current Trijang Rinpoche demonstrated the esscence of vajrayana, that the Guru is most supreme as he is the one to bring us to enlightenment. And it also does not make sense at all  that we can take on all teachings, initiations from our guru except the DS practice. Holy enlightened minds use the ban to teach us lessons and we as students should be grateful that they set a clear example for us to follow.

Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, junior tutor of HHDL, has mentioned before that in future there would appear conflict between HHDL and DS, he asked his students and followers not to loose faith in both but be patience for the conflict to be over.

I woud definitely follow such advice without loosing faith in both holy beings. Afterall, who am I to judge or criticise with my deluded mind?

[dsiluvu]

The Dalai Lama leaves it to Trijang Rinpoche to decide to abandon Shugden and adopt Nechung. But when you read it carefully, does Trijang Rinpoche really have the choice to give up Shugden or no choice? If he does not give up, no full ordination and Geshe examinations. What do you think?

Manaories we hear

HHDL leaves no choice to Trijang Rinpoche. It sounds like more of a threat than a choice. However, what Trijang Rinpoche did is a clear example of guru devotion where he does not abandon the practices given to him by his root guru.

The perfect illusory play by Enlightened minds? Like Naropa & Tilopa, Like Marpa and Milarepa and many more such are great mahasiddha stories told and heard. I find this scenario likened to it. How can HHDL "Chenrezig" threatened his own holy guru HH Trijang Dorje Chang "Heruka"? But it sure sounds like a threat in our ordinary minds.

the Dalai Lama told him:

"If you give up this deity, myself and all Tibetan people will appreciate it very much and our protector Nechung will take care of you and make you more successful and famous than ever. If you do not give up this deity, then your monastic career, like receiving the full monk’s ordination and taking Geshe examinations will not be possible. So I leave it to your judgement."

From the above statement made above... it appear that HHDL is trying to sway Trijang Rinpoche using all 8 wordly concerns and obviously Trijang Rinpoche did not accept. Showing us a great example of Guru devotion, his enlightened mind, his purity. What I find interesting is this Guru Disciple relationship, even after all that has been done against Trijang Rinpoche, He remains calm and does not react negatively towards HHDL and not said anything negative towards HHDL. If it is a test, then clearly Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche has passed with flying colours.   

It is obvious that Trijang Rinpoche does not need the above mentioned by HHDL to make him famous/spread the Dharma, in fact because of it, it has propelled him to become even more well known (effortlessly)as many instantly around the world due to the ban is more aware of HH Trijang Rinpoche. 

[DharmaDefender]

Abandoning one's practices from one's root guru is like asking the person to abandon one's parents totally. 

HHDL said to Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche that it is entirely up to his judgement to abandon or continue his protector practice. The decision made by the current Trijang Rinpoche demonstrated the esscence of vajrayana, that the Guru is most supreme as he is the one to bring us to enlightenment. And it also does not make sense at all  that we can take on all teachings, initiations from our guru except the DS practice. Holy enlightened minds use the ban to teach us lessons and we as students should be grateful that they set a clear example for us to follow.

Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, junior tutor of HHDL, has mentioned before that in future there would appear conflict between HHDL and DS, he asked his students and followers not to loose faith in both but be patience for the conflict to be over.

I woud definitely follow such advice without loosing faith in both holy beings. Afterall, who am I to judge or criticise with my deluded mind?

"Like" but in actuality, worse because your parents are your parents for this life only... but your guru keeps you under his watchful care until enlightenment.

What Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche says makes perfect sense. All lamas are manifestations of the enlightened mind, so in essence they are all the same. Therefore the act of losing faith in one but not other, is in reality rejecting BOTH teachers because Buddha taught there are no distinctions between the enlightened mind... how can you reject one enligthened mind and not the other?

I wouldnt lose faith because when I reject both teachers, where does it stop? If I can reject my guru and the Dalai Lama, then I might as well reject all the blessings of the Guru Tree, all the way back to Guru Shakyamuni. Its a slippery slope downhill.

[bambi]

Such a high and respectable Lama in all His lives and also a practitioner of Dorje Shugden, how can it be wrong? How can someone who worships a 'demon' even have the chance to meet HHDL and receive advice from Him? Or even be one of HHDL's tutor? Trijang Rinpoche was recognized and enthroned therefore I am very sure that people won't need to read His 'certificate' nor think whether He is qualified or not like what HHDL asked him to do. Mind you, Trijang Rinpoche is doing much better and have many sponsors abroad. He can reach out to the western world and benefit much more rather than staying in India and get murder threats when He was there. If He is my Guru, I will not doubt for a second. I will follow what He says and DO IT!!

[Barzin]

i revisited this thread as it got me thinking deeper.  In other words, what His Holiness said to HH Trijang Rinpoche is not a choice, in fact His Holiness predicts that if he abandon his Dorje Shugden practice, Nechung will protect him and make his work grow; if he doesn't he'll have a few students and his work won't grow.  So if His Holiness can summon Nechung to protect and make things grow for HH Trijang Rinpoche then why not subdue Dorje Shugden?  Instead just talking about it for decades, he could easily subdue a demon (if he is) after all he would like protect his root guru wouldn't he?

[Lineageholder]

Call me a fanatic or whatever. I do not see what the Dalai Lama is doing is like a witch's inquisition or anything evil. I see it like the great masters of old like Tilopa, Marpa and other great Lamas. These masters seemingly torture their students and make them perform horrendous tasks so they purify their minds to become fully awakened. I believe the Dalai Lama is placing Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche through a similar trial to reveal his qualities and to purify the obstacles of innumerable future Dorje Shugden practitioners in the future as I believe Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche is already awakened and can absorb obstacles. I believe he is merely waiting for his time to come when he can practice and spread Dorje Shugden publicly.

It's admirable that you want to let the Dalai Lama off the hook again, but let's think about this.  Trijang Rinpoche is already an enlightened being, he doesn't need torturing to purify his negative karma.  Any obstacles that Dorje Shugden practitioners may have are for us to purify.

The only person who is creating obstacles for Dorje Shugden practitioners is the Dalai Lama, and he definitely needs to do some purification for creating a schism in the Sangha.

[vajratruth]

Call me a fanatic or whatever. I do not see what the Dalai Lama is doing is like a witch's inquisition or anything evil. I see it like the great masters of old like Tilopa, Marpa and other great Lamas. These masters seemingly torture their students and make them perform horrendous tasks so they purify their minds to become fully awakened. I believe the Dalai Lama is placing Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche through a similar trial to reveal his qualities and to purify the obstacles of innumerable future Dorje Shugden practitioners in the future as I believe Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche is already awakened and can absorb obstacles. I believe he is merely waiting for his time to come when he can practice and spread Dorje Shugden publicly.

I appreciate Big Uncle'd take on this. On the face of it, HHDL bullied the young Tulku into making impossible choices. but I think there is a lot more to it than meets the eye.

Assuming Big Uncle is right, HHDL's move has first and foremost established the young Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche as a practitioner of pure guru devotion, a noble and resolute character, and an enlightened mind that is not seduced by the promise of achievements and recognitions. This is important to seal the credibility of Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche and prepare him for great things to come. HHDL made a young Trijang Rinpoche more famous than Nechung could have.

Second, by "driving" the young Trijang Rinpoche away from the monastery, HHDL actually provided Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche with the freedom to keep practicing Dorje Shugden, build a following and garner international sponsors in preparation of Trijang Rinpoche perhaps taking over when HHDL passes on. Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche would certainly face a much harder time with his preparations if he had to contend with political pressure by practicing Dorje Shugden openly as a monk.

In time when either the ban is lifted or when HHDL is no more, there will be little to stop Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche from sitting for his Geshe exams and receiving full ordination. Trijang Rinpoche would then have formally come back to continue his work to spread Dorje Shugden.

Every controversial thing HHDL did with respect to Dorje Shugden and the ban, has made the practice stronger and grow faster.

The things

[DS Star]

In time when either the ban is lifted or when HHDL is no more, there will be little to stop Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche from sitting for his Geshe exams and receiving full ordination. Trijang Rinpoche would then have formally come back to continue his work to spread Dorje Shugden.

Every controversial thing HHDL did with respect to Dorje Shugden and the ban, has made the practice stronger and grow faster.

The things

I do believe all these 'dramas' by HHDL are for the spreading of Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings.

Evidently from current situation that with the ban, Dorje Shugden's pratice had attracted international attentions to Buddhists and even non-Buddhists as well. Without the ban, not even all Tibetans know this powerful deity. So the ban actually promote DS to the world stage.

Secondly, since Chinese government has a fall out with HHDL and was originally controlling monasteries and even evading the practice of monks and claimed to 'recognise' incarnations of high lamas. With this ban, HHDL is creating a 'separate group' within Gelug which is out of HHDL's camp, they're viewed as 'anti-Dalai Lama', thus, this put them into the same camp with the Chinese authorities. In this way, at least there is a group of Gelug practitioners can continue to practice dharma peacefully in Tibet and China.

Though initially this ban gave so much sufferings and hardships to the lamas and practitioners of DS, ultimately, the teachings of Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings is spreading widely among Tibetans and other Buddhists around the world. So, once the ban is lifted or when eventually HHDL passes on, there will be a great force of practitioners to continue the holy lineage of Lama Tsongkhapa.

[Ensapa]

I do believe all these 'dramas' by HHDL are for the spreading of Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings.

Evidently from current situation that with the ban, Dorje Shugden's pratice had attracted international attentions to Buddhists and even non-Buddhists as well. Without the ban, not even all Tibetans know this powerful deity. So the ban actually promote DS to the world stage.

Secondly, since Chinese government has a fall out with HHDL and was originally controlling monasteries and even evading the practice of monks and claimed to 'recognise' incarnations of high lamas. With this ban, HHDL is creating a 'separate group' within Gelug which is out of HHDL's camp, they're viewed as 'anti-Dalai Lama', thus, this put them into the same camp with the Chinese authorities. In this way, at least there is a group of Gelug practitioners can continue to practice dharma peacefully in Tibet and China.

Though initially this ban gave so much sufferings and hardships to the lamas and practitioners of DS, ultimately, the teachings of Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings is spreading widely among Tibetans and other Buddhists around the world. So, once the ban is lifted or when eventually HHDL passes on, there will be a great force of practitioners to continue the holy lineage of Lama Tsongkhapa.

if HHDL meant what he said, then it would mean that he has no Guru devotion at all, and he would lose all his attainments and status. There has been so many stories of mahasiddhas who as so much said "he is not my Guru", or even had the thought "not even my Guru can do this" immediately lose all of their attainments and become nothing but an ordinary person. We do not see that happening with HHDL.

In some way or another, even with these kind of things happening, HHDL can still teach and never reverts back to becoming an ordinary person and can still give initiations and teachings. So, he is definitely still devoted to his Guru if not, the Dharma protectors will not allow him to give transmissions of teachings and create obstacles or show signs that he has lost his attainments. This, again, obviously has not happened.

Sometimes, seemingly mythical stories from the olden times do happen and they can be used to analyze situations like these and provide a very clear answer to situations like these. And in this case, HHDL "survived" the test even tho he made such remarks against his root Guru. There is no way anyone of his stature would make remarks like that and get away with it. There will be signs that he lost his attainments if he really meant it.

The latest news after this was that HHDL has allowed Trijang Rinpoche to practice:

Dalai Lama says Trijang Rinpoche can practise Dorje Shugden	Small | Large

by means of divination (and of course, the results would be YES) but this is also one of the cracks on the ban that are surfacing and more of them has surfaced since then.

[dondrup]

“…and our protector Nechung will take care of you and make you more successful and famous than ever... “

Trijang Rinpoche’s past incarnations include pandit ??ntarak?ita, Padmasambhava, Ati?a D?pa?k?ra ?r?jñ?na, Lang-ri Thangpa Dorje Senge, Buddha Je Tsongkhapa, Mönlam Pelwa (i.e. Eighth Ganden Tripa), Mikyö Dorje (eighth Karmapa), Zurchen Chöying Rangdröl (one of the Fifth Dalai Lama Ngawang Gyatso’s principal Masters), Trichen Jangchub Chöpel (sixty-ninth Ganden Tripa), Trichen Lobsang Tsultrim (eighty-fifth Ganden Tripa), and immediate predecessor Kyabje Yongdzin Trijang Dorje Chang Chenpo (assistant and tutor of the Fourteenth Dalai Lama for forty years).

Trijang Rinpoche’s countless accomplishments and attainments of his past incarnations are incomparable.  Trijang Rinpoche was already so successful and famous that he does not need further recognition or fame!  Every Vajrayana practitioner knows who Trijang Rinpoche is! Trijang Rinpoche is a Buddha.  It is absurd to say Nechung, a worldly spirit can protect a Buddha and make Trijang Rinpoche more successful!

"If you give up this deity, myself and all Tibetan people will appreciate it very much..."

Tibetan people especially those who were (and still are) suppressed by the ban on Dorje Shugden will appreciate it very much if there was no ban on Dorje Shugden in the first place.  Dorje Shugden practice was transmitted from Trijang Rinpoche to all the Tibetan people.  How can the Tibetan people who had received and benefitted from Dorje Shugden practice ask Trijang Rinpoche to give up his practice?  No student of Trijang Rinpoche (including HH 14th Dalai Lama) has the authority to stop him from practising Dorje Shugden.  Who do these students think they are?   It is like telling a Buddha to stop engaging in bodhichitta!

"...If you do not give up this deity, then your monastic career, like receiving the full monk’s ordination and taking Geshe examinations will not be possible..."

Trijang Rinpoche is a Buddha. Do we need to train a fully enlightened Buddha?  Even if Trijang Rinpoche is not ordained, he can still train under so many high lamas of today. 

“…So I leave it to your judgement."

HH 14th Dalai Lama’s question is very intimidating, unnecessary and irrelevant!  From a Guru-disciple relationship’s point of view, it is very disrespectful of a disciple to even raise this question to a guru.

Trijang Rinpoche need not make any decision on whether to abandon Dorje Shugden practice or to pursue his monastic career.   The World will always benefit from His Holiness Kyabje Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche’s presence even if His Holiness is a lay teacher.

"If you give up this deity, myself and all Tibetan people will appreciate it very much and our protector Nechung will take care of you and make you more successful and famous than ever. If you do not give up this deity, then your monastic career, like receiving the full monk’s ordination and taking Geshe examinations will not be possible. So I leave it to your judgement."

From the outset, the whole question seems inappropriate.  Like what many others had said in this thread, I feel that there are deeper meanings beneath this question.  His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama and Trijang Rinpoche had been working hand-in-hand for the benefit of Dharma in many past lives. 

When HH Dalai Lama manisfested as king Trisong Detsen, Trijang Rinpoche was pandit ??ntarak?ita. When Trijang Rinpoche manifested as Ati?a D?pa?k?ra ?r?jñ?na, HHH Dalai Lama was Dromtönpa Gyalwé Jungne.  When Trijang Rinpoche was Buddha Je Tsongkhapa, HH Dalai Lama was Avalokiteshvara. When Trijang Rinpoche was Mikyö Dorje (eighth Karmapa), HH Dalai Lama was Gendun Gyatso.  When Trijang Rinpoche became Zurchen Chöying Rangdröl, HH Dalai Lama was the Fifth Dalai Lama Ngawang Gyatso.  When Trijang Rinpoche was Trichen Jangchub Chöpel (sixty-ninth Ganden Tripa), HH Dalai Lama was Lungtog Gyatso. Finally Trijang Rinpoche was the immediate predecessor Kyabje Yongdzin Trijang Dorje Chang Chenpo who was the assistant and tutor of the 14th Dalai Lama for forty years. 

From these relationships that lasted many past lives, both Trijang Rinpoche and HH Dalai Lama are very closely connected.  It is impossible that HH Dalai Lama would want to harm or make Trijang Rinpoche’s current spiritual training difficult!

[samayakeeper]

In the video clip posted by Ensapa, HH said to Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche:

"............If Rinpoche has to continue the practice, I will make this an exception. However if others want to consider Shugden very important then I request them not to take initiations and spiritual vows from me. Since this has to do with the purity of the spiritual bond between teacher and disciple, I request Shugden followers not to receive initiations and vows from me. Instead they should follow their own ways and practice without having anything to do with me."


Does that also mean that Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche's personal attendants may engage in the practice too?

Does that mean HH's purity of the spiritual bond with the previous Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche was/is not pure?