Is this stealing?

[Positive Change]

When I was visiting Bangkok a while back, I had noticed a beautiful Dorje Shugden statue in the center of a beautiful outdoor public shrine where a large (3 feet) four faced Buddha was. The Dorje Shugden statue was about 8" or more in height. I believe it was an offering from a devotee in Bangkok (how wonderful!).

That particular shrine was in a busy part of town and the shrine was very popular in that a lot of people went up to make offerings daily (how meritorious!). Even the Dorje Shugden statue had a little flower garland offering. However, after a couple of days I had noticed that the statue was gone!!!

I wondered if someone had removed it or taken it for themselves. My question is, if someone had indeed taken the statue for him or her self, would that constitute as stealing even if the motivation was to take it home to set up an altar and make offerings? Would it not deprive others of making offerings and thus be bad karma. I know one should never take something that does not belong to anyone else but technically the statue did not belong to anyone... however one might argue it did belong to EVERYONE.

So would this be stealing?

Would it be the same as picking up a statue by the side of the road?

What if there were two identical statues there and one was left?

Seems like a mundane question but can someone "humour" me...

[hope rainbow]

I steal by taking something that does not belong to me and I make that act complete by considering that it is now mine.

So yes, it is stealing if I take a statue of a Buddha that is not there for me to take on a "free distribution" basis, an object that does not belong to me.

Then, if after I have done that I can justify in my mind that it was not stealing and therefore consider this statue to be mine, I have actually completed ALL the karmic parts that make the act of stealing complete.

So we should be very careful with the justification we delude our mind with when we abuse people's properties or the community's properties, because that justification (thinking that the stolen object is mine) seals the karma of stealing, making the karma much stronger than if we had regrets over our action.

If I think that the object is mine, how could I develop regret over the act of stealing that I have committed.
It is impossible, how could I possibly rejoice over my act and develop regret at the same time?

[Positive Change]

I steal by taking something that does not belong to me and I make that act complete by considering that it is now mine.

So yes, it is stealing if I take a statue of a Buddha that is not there for me to take on a "free distribution" basis, an object that does not belong to me.

Then, if after I have done that I can justify in my mind that it was not stealing and therefore consider this statue to be mine, I have actually completed ALL the karmic parts that make the act of stealing complete.

So we should be very careful with the justification we delude our mind with when we abuse people's properties or the community's properties, because that justification (thinking that the stolen object is mine) seals the karma of stealing, making the karma much stronger than if we had regrets over our action.

If I think that the object is mine, how could I develop regret over the act of stealing that I have committed.
It is impossible, how could I possibly rejoice over my act and develop regret at the same time?

Thank you HR,

This is indeed very clear. We do tend to justify our actions or thoughts even. Hence the mind can be a trusted ally or a deadly foe... we have to be constantly aware of our mind in order for it to be used in a proper manner.

Stealing which is taking something that does not belong to you is just that! There is no ifs or buts about it. Actually a lot of times our choices are very cut and dry or black and white... it is our deluded mind that can come up with the most interesting justifications or reasons as to why we chose to act in a selfish way! It applies to lying, etc.

[biggyboy]

Thank you very much, Hope Rainbow.  What a clear and precise explanations.  One should check their mind and contemplate on before one "take" the statue thinking that it is alright to take.  Taking it and justifying that it is "mine" and "alright" to do so, seals that stealing karma.  And yet still it is from a place of worship for everyone to make offerings!  Very bad!

[hope rainbow]

Thank you PA and BB, I wonder now if the karma of stealing a Buddha statue is different from the karma of stealing a Barbie doll? What do you think?

[biggyboy]

The act is still stealing...this constitutes the stealing karma.  The only different is the object.  Where in the case of "stealing" a Buddha statue, it has serious consequences over stealing a barbie doll.  Because when one steals a Buddha being a holy statue (from a place of worship), it deprive many others their "rights of sanctuary".

[hope rainbow]

The act is still stealing...this constitutes the stealing karma.  The only different is the object.  Where in the case of "stealing" a Buddha statue, it has serious consequences over stealing a barbie doll.  Because when one steals a Buddha being a holy statue (from a place of worship), it deprive many others their "rights of sanctuary".

Thank you BB, but is the karma the same if the person who steals:
(a) does not consider the Buddha statue as holy
OR (b) if he does?

[Aurore]

Thank you BB, but is the karma the same if the person who steals:
(a) does not consider the Buddha statue as holy
OR (b) if he does?
[/quote]


I think that the karma for both is the same as the result of the action is the same.

However, the karma for the person who regards the statue to be holy should be worse than the person who does not because it then becomes a conscious act than someone who is stealing for material gain. I guess at the end of the day it depends on the motivation behind it.

I can't confirm. It just makes more sense to me this way.

[biggyboy]

Thank you BB, but is the karma the same if the person who steals:
(a) does not consider the Buddha statue as holy
OR (b) if he does?

I think that the karma for both is the same as the result of the action is the same.

However, the karma for the person who regards the statue to be holy should be worse than the person who does not because it then becomes a conscious act than someone who is stealing for material gain. I guess at the end of the day it depends on the motivation behind it.

I can't confirm. It just makes more sense to me this way.
[/quote]

My thoughts are similar as Aurore.  Whether the person who steals regard the object as holy or not, still generate the same result of stealing karma.  Stealing from a place of worship generates much heavier karma than someone who steals a barbie doll for pleasure or material gain. 

[dorjedakini]

Yes it is stealing. Depends on the motivation as well. Whether to steal a Holy images or a mundane images, both have karma, and it is very hard to say.

If the statue is there on the altar for public, more people can pray and get benefit from it, if the person "took" back with whatever reason he/she might have, it is still bad as it is act out of selfishness.

But if the person took it to another bigger temple and set up at a nicer, higer throne and daily even more people coming to pray, does it consider good or bad? It is really depends on what the person did after taking the statue and the person motivation.

All action is just a way, tool, method, whether to use it to benefit others or for selfish reasons. That's why when our lama act in a wrathful way, slap or "punish" a student,we should be grateful as he is acting it out of love and care.

[Positive Change]

So Dorjedakini... are you saying if in the situation I explained above, if the person or persons that took the statue, took it with the motivation to benefit more people than it is excusable? But is it not stealing all the same? So in your scenario, which of the following is true:

1. No negative karma
2. Lesser negative karma
3. Same negative karma but with an additional positive karma (**perhaps to balance things out - explained in the account of Buddha's previous life below)

On rare occasions killing is done through a good motivation, in which case a negative result will not come from that action.

There was an account of one such occasion in one of Buddha's past lives which is extracted as follows:

For example, in the account of the previous life of the Buddha
he was a sea captain. At that time a great fortune of jewels could
be obtained by going out to sea, but it was also very dangerous
and one could die. It was a risky adventure; one could return
either wealthy or not at all. If one set out to sea, one needed a
guide to lead the ship, a good person with experience. Buddha
was such a sea captain in a previous life and his actual name was
“Courage;” He led 500 merchants in a ship to obtain jewels but
there was a very negative person on that ship who became very
angry with everyone else. He thought that if he made a hole in
the bottom of the boat, it would sink and all the merchants
would die. He didn’t care if it killed him too. But Captain
Courage saw this and thought, “If I kill him, then it will save the
other merchants. The negative result of killing will come to me,
but it doesn’t matter what happens to me. I have to save the 500
merchants and also the man from accumulating such negative
karma.” With this motivation, Captain Courage hit this man on
the head with an axe and he died. Because of the good
motivation, this act did not lead to negative karma. He did kill
one man but saved the lives of 500 people; therefore it was a
good action instead of a negative one. Though the act may be an
act of killing, it may not be a negative action. This is because of
the motivation that was involved.

**However, I was told that even though it was not considered a negative action per se, Buddha did go to hell for that particular action from that life but only stayed for a very very short time (am not sure how long exactly but perhaps someone can shed some light on this!) and was reborn in the God's realm right after.

[Gypsy]

Yes, from my understanding, it is stealing. Be it holy or mundane item, if u take something which is not belongs to you, and give all sorts of excuses, justification to our actions, claiming that others' belongings are mine, all these contributed to the cause of stealing and lying to ourselves. This is also a form of selfishness. For example, stealing holy statues from a chapel or holy site creates very bad karma, we create inconvenience for those worshipers as well. Therefore, the act of stealing actually links to lying, selfishness and sneakiness.

[Galen]

So would this be stealing?

Would it be the same as picking up a statue by the side of the road?

What if there were two identical statues there and one was left?

Seems like a mundane question but can someone "humour" me...

The act of taking something that does not belong to you is stealing, be it a holy item or not. Nothing to argue about this. Also applies to whether there are 2 or more of the same statues at the altar. The fact that there are offerings made to the statue means that the statue is being prayed to and it is very bad for the person who took it and deprive many people from making offerings.

WRT picking up statues by the side of the road, we must also see whether the statue is being prayed to or dumped there. If it is being prayed to, then if we take it, then it is stealing. But if it is dumped, then I guess it may not be considered stealing. Cos some people's trash is other people's treasure.

The reason i say that picking up a statue by the road has 2 scenarios is because in Asia, there are land deities which people pray to and there are many of these by the side of the road.

I hope what i said made some sense.

[yontenjamyang]

It is definitely stealing as it is taking what that doesn't belong to oneself. Moreover, this is an act that benefit one and deprive many as oppose to the story of the Buddha in a previous life killing one to safe many. To steal for a good motivation is like Robin Hood. Steal from the rich (few) to benefit the poor (many).

[kris]

Taking things which do not belong to us, and things are not free distribution, is stealing.

However, I pray that the person who took the Dorje Shugden statue will create an affinity with Him and plant the seed of Manjushri in him/her. May he/she become a Dharma teacher in this life or future lives.