Is this stealing?

[Poonlarp]

Yes, like mentioned by most of the comment posts, stealing is an action of bad karma and the negative karma will return back.

But they are always some circumstances which in the grey zone where it's not totally wrong nor totally right.

Like Robinhood's story who robs the rich and helps the poor, is Robinhood a bad person? It's always link back the motivation of the action.

If it's a selfish motivation, steal the statue for own's good, so that I can make offering and others cannot, or so it's convenience for me to pray, this definately bring very bad karma. But if the motivation is to give the statue a better place so more people can do prayers and offerings, the level of bad karma is not that bad.

The bad karma is still there from any negative action, but the level of it is differ depends on the motivation.

Like in one life of Shakyamurni Buddha, he killed a person who is going to murder all the people on the ship. Buddha still go to hell, for one day for killing. But the duration is not long because Buddha did it for a good motivation.

[WisdomBeing]

Just to add - apparently if you took something by mistake, it does not constitute as stealing. Eg if you meant to steal a vase from the temple but you accidentally took a statue by mistake (ok ok let's say they were both in boxes so you couldn't tell exactly what it was), it doesn't count as stealing. But if you kept the item, knowing that it did not belong to you, it would constitute as stealing.

Even borrowing a pen from a friend and not returning it constitutes as stealing, let alone a holy item.

[vegeing]

1. he take the statue home. but in their mind dont have the thinking of stealing , so .... is it still cause stealing    ?

2. when i was young, i hear my parent say that stealing Buddha statue from others , is more powerful ( example , 4 face Buddha ) .

is it all this wrong ?

[pgdharma]

Taking things that do not belong to us is stealing. In this case, Dorje Shugden's statue is placed there for people to pray, to make offerings and receive blessings.  So when it is stolen, it will deprive many from receiving blessings. The person who stole the statue does not care for others except for his own benefit. This is an act of selfishness and greed and it creates heavy negative karma.

[bambi]

Wouldn't stealing/taking the statue depend on our motivation? What if someone left it there to benefit someone else? If that person took the statue with impure motivation, yes, I believe it will create a negative karma. But what if the person who took it wanted to setup an altar? Wouldn't the person who left it there collect merits everyday when offerings and prayers are done to the statue? For the whole action to be considered as negative karma, one have to complete the 4 Factors(motivation, intention, effort (or attempt) and satisfaction).

[Positive Change]

I believe there are a multitude of variations when posing my question... I do agree with some that, stealing which literally means taking something that is not yours, is simply stealing...

What "varies" I suppose is the severity of the negative karma when it comes to the motivation behind the act of "stealing". I did pose a few scenarios and one of them being, perhaps it was put there and meant for someone to take (if there were more than one) and put on their altar.

I did also mention that the statue was put there like an offering and was not particularly the main deity of this outdoor shrine. Perhaps it was left there for people to receive blessings and perhaps it was left there for people to take... whichever it is, I believe, we in samsara will inevitably in some way or another create negative karma (in varied degrees of course) in whatever action we take or choices we make purely because we have not learnt to act out of pure motivation to benefit others. If we did we would not be here or would we?

[hope rainbow]

I believe, we in samsara will inevitably in some way or another create negative karma (in varied degrees of course) in whatever action we take or choices we make because we have not learnt to act out of pure motivation to benefit others.
If we did we would not be here or would we?

Indeed, a very interesting point PA. Thank you.
This is why we rely on our Guru and on His lineage to create merits, because alone we simply could only do good karma at best.
This is why one must see (and use) the Guru tree as a field of merit.
There is a specific topic on this here:

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1374.msg18219#msg18219

[Aurore]

I believe there are a multitude of variations when posing my question... I do agree with some that, stealing which literally means taking something that is not yours, is simply stealing...

What "varies" I suppose is the severity of the negative karma when it comes to the motivation behind the act of "stealing". I did pose a few scenarios and one of them being, perhaps it was put there and meant for someone to take (if there were more than one) and put on their altar.

I did also mention that the statue was put there like an offering and was not particularly the main deity of this outdoor shrine. Perhaps it was left there for people to receive blessings and perhaps it was left there for people to take... whichever it is, I believe, we in samsara will inevitably in some way or another create negative karma (in varied degrees of course) in whatever action we take or choices we make purely because we have not learnt to act out of pure motivation to benefit others. If we did we would not be here or would we?

I supposed if it was left there without much security, it's not surprising that someone "might" take it. The percentage is very high especially if the statue is small. If it's left there for people to take and this person who takes it doesn't know that but wants to take it anyways, it is still considered stealing?

If it is, does this mean that leaving it there to be taken is unintentionally helping the other person collect negative karma? In that case, is this even a good thing to do?

OR is this whole leaving a statue there for people to steal could just be new methods of Buddhism which is to use human attachments to later convert them into deeper studies and to practice? As times are so degenerate, this skilful method could be necessary. There are so many possibilities. Don't you think? 

[Positive Change]

I supposed if it was left there without much security, it's not surprising that someone "might" take it. The percentage is very high especially if the statue is small. If it's left there for people to take and this person who takes it doesn't know that but wants to take it anyways, it is still considered stealing?

If it is, does this mean that leaving it there to be taken is unintentionally helping the other person collect negative karma? In that case, is this even a good thing to do?

OR is this whole leaving a statue there for people to steal could just be new methods of Buddhism which is to use human attachments to later convert them into deeper studies and to practice? As times are so degenerate, this skilful method could be necessary. There are so many possibilities. Don't you think? 

Hmmm interesting thought Aurore but perhaps we are bordering on using an excuse to justify the means here. I don't think leaving something for someone to take intentionally is bad because it causes no harm to to the person leaving it or the person taking it. It does not have the cause for hurt and therefore I personally feel it is ok.  The motivation is correct in my mind but it is true that person may be "using" the delusion aspect of another to achieve the result... and I guess that is precisely your question... is that wrong? Well... for me I do not think so...

[Jessie Fong]

I disagree, Bambi.

Taking something from someone/somewhere that does not belong to you is considered stealing.  Even if your motivation was to set up an altar, then it was selfish as you would have deprived others the opportunity to make offerings and receive blessings.  It would be greedy on your part as you took it for yourself, not considering the loss it would create for others.  Just by this simple act alone, it only benefited the thief for his own selfish wants.

[ratanasutra]

1. he take the statue home. but in their mind dont have the thinking of stealing , so .... is it still cause stealing    ?

2. when i was young, i hear my parent say that stealing Buddha statue from others , is more powerful ( example , 4 face Buddha ) .

is it all this wrong ?

1) taking things that not belong to you is 'stealing' whether with good motivation or not, or even you are not thinking about it.. Actions come from thoughts so it is impossible that you did not think about it, actually it a matter of you aware of it or not.. Then how heavy of the karma of this stealing is depend on the motivation..

If taking things that not belong to you is 'not stealing' then we can just go to everywhere and take anything we want.. We can go temple and take statue that we like or we can go to our freind house and take whatever things that we wish to have..  Very interesting isn't it???

2) yes, its a wrong view.. How can the statue that been stolen is more powerful? In the past i knew that many sacred Buddha statues in Thailand have been stolen, but of course it not because of the buddha statue have more powerful but it because of power of Money..

   
 

[Positive Change]

We "steal" every moment in our lives whether we choose to or not. Perhaps too strong a statement but lets see it from this point:

Are we not "using" up the natural resources of this planet unwittingly and selfishly? Is this not "stealing" from the next generations? The natural resources of our beautiful planet DO NOT belong to us.

The very fact that we use paper in our daily lives we consume trees on an alarming rate. Everytime we flush the toilet we consume water at an alarming rate - water that need to be filtered - power to sustain these water treatment plants - coal that is used from the core of this planet to create this power!

It is all linked in our daily lives whether or not we choose to "see" or conveniently "ignore" it. Ignorance in this case is not bliss. Why do you think we are in the degenerate age? I believe, unbeknown to us, we are actually creating more negative karma than we are creating positive/good karma, hence we are degenerating! We need more spirituality to "combat" this alarming slippery, sliding scale.

So unless we are off meditating in a cave, we are in some ways "creating" negative karma in our very existence. Let us not even go on actual stealing, killing or the other poisons.

Point to ponder on huh!

[valeriecheung]

this consider 'stealing' take things without permission and not belongs to you, no matter good motivation or at the end is to benefit others. For example, if you can't accomplish daily sadhana commitment given by your guru for an deity and you think practise you done got effective?? I've doubt this. If you invite an buddha statue without taking from others and at the end people got connection or make offering sure you receive tremendious merit but on the other hand no merit at all might become good karma or even none.

[Benny]

If we were to pick up any dictionary and checkout the definition of theft , we would most definitely find it to mean         
: intentionally misappropriating property belonging to others with the intent to permanently deprive them of it .So if someone who comes across a nice statute on some nice alter somewhere and takes it without asking it's owner or caretaker and uses it for his own purpose ( keep it, give it away , destroys it and etc ) it amounts to misappropriating it ! Whether his action leads to good or bad does not matter as the act of theft is complete . The owner and those who benefits from the statute being there is now deprived.

Going back to what aurore said about the possibility of the act of leaving statutes or other items for "interested parties " to pick up could be encouraging the act of theft, I agree with that possibility because of the high probability that those who " misappropriate " it has all the requisite elements to complete the act of theft . However , there is a world of difference if there are explicit or implicit indications to made known to those interested in those items that they are free for the taking.

But , will a person be guilty of theft if he or she does not realise that whatever they are taking is free and does so with intent to steal and rejoices with the fact they believed they misappropriated others property, guilty ? Well not in the legal sense but morally ? Yes, there are dumb crooks out there ! So will they accumulate bad karma ?

[Jessie Fong]

Wouldn't stealing/taking the statue depend on our motivation? What if someone left it there to benefit someone else? If that person took the statue with impure motivation, yes, I believe it will create a negative karma. But what if the person who took it wanted to setup an altar? Wouldn't the person who left it there collect merits everyday when offerings and prayers are done to the statue? For the whole action to be considered as negative karma, one have to complete the 4 Factors(motivation, intention, effort (or attempt) and satisfaction).

Dear Bambi
If the statue had been left there to benefit someone else, would the sponsor not have left a note to say that it is for FREE, so help yourself?  Then if you took it, it would not have been considered stealing, cause stealing is when you take something from someone somewhere without permission.  It had already been offered so there is no stealing here, you are merely taking something that does not belong to anyone anymore.

When you go shopping and there is a brochure that says it is for FREE and you take a copy, would you be considered stealing?