Dorje Shugden and mental issues

[Ensapa]

Hi Everyone,

I just want to know your opinion if Dorje Shugden can assist with persons who suffer from mental issues like schizophrenia, depression etc who basically put them in a condition where they will open up their negative karma without control as people of this nature would naturally be more inclined to think negative thoughts rather than positive ones. Dorje Shugden is after all Manjushri so i am hoping that he can.

I have a schizophrenic friend who claims that Dharma protectors speak directly into his head and he claims that Dorje Shugden has been giving him various Dharma related instructions such as doing such and such a prayer and to make offerings to his lama etc, and lots and lots of advice and counseling beyond what any friend or psychiatrist can give. And that he has been very kind and forgiving to him although occasionally he does get scoldings from him. He also gets warnings as well which he heeds. And they do come through. I know that Dorje Shugden is close to us but how will we know if it is really Dorje Shugden speaking to him? There are theories that some schizophrenic people are able to communicate with etherial beings, so i have no idea on what to advise him. He says that he gets many voices but only this one does not go away even after heavy medication (he's taking olanzopine) while the rest all goes into remission.

Can anyone advice what can be made of this? It would be great if Dorje Shugden can heal my friend but what about the voice?

[WisdomBeing]

Dear Ensapa

I'm sorry to hear about your schizophrenic friend. Mental illnesses are the most debilitating and in that sense yes i think that Dorje Shugden is perfect as the embodiment of wisdom. I do caution your friend from thinking that the voices in his head belong to Dorje Shugden though. How he or she would be able to tell if it's really Dorje Shugden would be - what qualities does your friend have that a Buddha would speak directly to him or her? If he or she does not have particular attainments, why would Dorje Shugden be able to communicate with him or her? I believe that we have karmic obscurations which do not allow the high beings to talk to us directly. Of course your friend is likely NOT to believe you if he/she completely believes that Dorje Shugden is talking to him/her.

The best for your friend would be to consult a high Lama. If your friend does not trust a high lama and thinks he or she knows better than the Lama, then he or she has much bigger issues that voices in his or her head.

Where is your friend - there are many wonderful teachers around the world, such as HE Gangchen Rinpoche in Italy, HH Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche in USA. There is a Kuten (oracle monk) in Bloomington, Indiana, USA, who is very accessible. He gives teachings at the centre every week. So that might be an option.

All the best to your friend, Ensapa.

[kurava]

Hi Ensapa,
Totally agree with WB that your friend should consult a high Lama AND a doctor.

First and foremost, a highly attained person will not go round proclaiming he can connect directly with a holy being. A truly attained person will be very quiet about his attainments and he will perform his bodhisattva deeds with great humility.

Once, we had a person suffering from mental illness came to the dharma centre, demanded to sit on the high throne as he claimed to be Je Tsongkhapa reincarnate !

[Ensapa]

Dear Ensapa

I'm sorry to hear about your schizophrenic friend. Mental illnesses are the most debilitating and in that sense yes i think that Dorje Shugden is perfect as the embodiment of wisdom. I do caution your friend from thinking that the voices in his head belong to Dorje Shugden though. How he or she would be able to tell if it's really Dorje Shugden would be - what qualities does your friend have that a Buddha would speak directly to him or her? If he or she does not have particular attainments, why would Dorje Shugden be able to communicate with him or her? I believe that we have karmic obscurations which do not allow the high beings to talk to us directly. Of course your friend is likely NOT to believe you if he/she completely believes that Dorje Shugden is talking to him/her.

The best for your friend would be to consult a high Lama. If your friend does not trust a high lama and thinks he or she knows better than the Lama, then he or she has much bigger issues that voices in his or her head.

Where is your friend - there are many wonderful teachers around the world, such as HE Gangchen Rinpoche in Italy, HH Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche in USA. There is a Kuten (oracle monk) in Bloomington, Indiana, USA, who is very accessible. He gives teachings at the centre every week. So that might be an option.

All the best to your friend, Ensapa.

It appears that he has been having it for quite sometime and only blurted it by accident in one of his incoherent mental states. It's very hard for me to get him to talk about it now as he really thinks he should keep this a secret from everyone. Now he keeps saying he was joking about it but that is not how he acts. To me it is very obvious he still believes strongly that the voice is Shugden. Sometimes he will do things that he would not usually do or that he hates, as if someone is telling or forcing or threatening him to do it. At times, he would say or give advice that he would not be able to think of or have read up on. I have told him to inform his Lama about the mental issues and the voices (who is a really high incarnate as well) but he has been reluctant saying that he does not wish to burden his lama etc. His Lama had made no mention of spirit disturbance, so i am guessing that his mental disease intensified. Me and him are both in Malaysia. His Lama has not mentioned anything but did hint that if people think Buddhas are talking to them, they should seek help. He is seeing a psychiatrist and is under medication (but did not help much) but has been more stable since ever since he started making a connection with Shugden. 

It is both worrying and confusing because he seems to be improving externally (as in behavioral, appearance and his ability to communicate) but now that we find out that he has a "voice" that has been coaching him, we are somewhat worried. He did mention that the voice did not say who he is but he "felt" that it was Shugden, based on the advice he was given and how he was scolded at times.

He's been through several suicide attempts now, and sometimes when his depression triggers can go on a wild rampage that his Lama does not care for him and says he's better off dead and the only way to repay his Lama's kindness is to reincarnate as a fox and be skinned and have it offered  to his Lama etc and it takes quite a bit of talking to him to bring him back  to his senses. I am wondering if this would create the causes for him to be away from his Lama, but it was done under the influence of mental incoherence...

Just thought i'd share this, as i am quite worried for him at this point. And i have ran out of ideas on how to help him. Sigh. How did it turn out like this when he is relying on a Buddha? I can only help that he will snap out of it one day. But what i do worry now is how his mental issue will affect his connection with his Lama.

[Big Uncle]

Dear Ensapa

I'm sorry to hear about your schizophrenic friend. Mental illnesses are the most debilitating and in that sense yes i think that Dorje Shugden is perfect as the embodiment of wisdom. I do caution your friend from thinking that the voices in his head belong to Dorje Shugden though. How he or she would be able to tell if it's really Dorje Shugden would be - what qualities does your friend have that a Buddha would speak directly to him or her? If he or she does not have particular attainments, why would Dorje Shugden be able to communicate with him or her? I believe that we have karmic obscurations which do not allow the high beings to talk to us directly. Of course your friend is likely NOT to believe you if he/she completely believes that Dorje Shugden is talking to him/her.

The best for your friend would be to consult a high Lama. If your friend does not trust a high lama and thinks he or she knows better than the Lama, then he or she has much bigger issues that voices in his or her head.

Where is your friend - there are many wonderful teachers around the world, such as HE Gangchen Rinpoche in Italy, HH Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche in USA. There is a Kuten (oracle monk) in Bloomington, Indiana, USA, who is very accessible. He gives teachings at the centre every week. So that might be an option.

All the best to your friend, Ensapa.

It appears that he has been having it for quite sometime and only blurted it by accident in one of his incoherent mental states. It's very hard for me to get him to talk about it now as he really thinks he should keep this a secret from everyone. Now he keeps saying he was joking about it but that is not how he acts. To me it is very obvious he still believes strongly that the voice is Shugden. Sometimes he will do things that he would not usually do or that he hates, as if someone is telling or forcing or threatening him to do it. At times, he would say or give advice that he would not be able to think of or have read up on. I have told him to inform his Lama about the mental issues and the voices (who is a really high incarnate as well) but he has been reluctant saying that he does not wish to burden his lama etc. His Lama had made no mention of spirit disturbance, so i am guessing that his mental disease intensified. Me and him are both in Malaysia. His Lama has not mentioned anything but did hint that if people think Buddhas are talking to them, they should seek help. He is seeing a psychiatrist and is under medication (but did not help much) but has been more stable since ever since he started making a connection with Shugden. 

It is both worrying and confusing because he seems to be improving externally (as in behavioral, appearance and his ability to communicate) but now that we find out that he has a "voice" that has been coaching him, we are somewhat worried. He did mention that the voice did not say who he is but he "felt" that it was Shugden, based on the advice he was given and how he was scolded at times.

He's been through several suicide attempts now, and sometimes when his depression triggers can go on a wild rampage that his Lama does not care for him and says he's better off dead and the only way to repay his Lama's kindness is to reincarnate as a fox and be skinned and have it offered  to his Lama etc and it takes quite a bit of talking to him to bring him back  to his senses. I am wondering if this would create the causes for him to be away from his Lama, but it was done under the influence of mental incoherence...

Just thought i'd share this, as i am quite worried for him at this point. And i have ran out of ideas on how to help him. Sigh. How did it turn out like this when he is relying on a Buddha? I can only help that he will snap out of it one day. But what i do worry now is how his mental issue will affect his connection with his Lama.

Please! For everyone's sake, please send your friend to a mental institution that will help him. No point for him to practice the Dharma with a Lama when he cannot even have basic control of his mind. At this point, he only get a blessing from the Lama but unable to practice real Dharma. I dunno why are you talking and discussing about this when he could be a real threat to himself and may also harm the Lama and you. It does not sound light and he sounds highly dangerous. At this point, Dorje Shugden can only plant seeds of blessings and unable to help him since his negative karma is so deep.

[dondrup]

Please! For everyone's sake, please send your friend to a mental institution that will help him. No point for him to practice the Dharma with a Lama when he cannot even have basic control of his mind. At this point, he only get a blessing from the Lama but unable to practice real Dharma. I dunno why are you talking and discussing about this when he could be a real threat to himself and may also harm the Lama and you. It does not sound light and he sounds highly dangerous. At this point, Dorje Shugden can only plant seeds of blessings and unable to help him since his negative karma is so deep.

Dear Ensapa,

I fully agree with Big Uncle. 

I have a friend whose son is a schizophrenic.  My friend has shared with me many times the pains of looking after schizophrenic patients!  Very litttle is known by the public about schizophrenia.  Usually the schizophrenic patient denies the fact that they have any mental illness or problems! Sometimes skilful means are adopted to 'force' these schizophrenic patients to take their medications! They would not like to take medications because they feel that they are alright!  Sometimes my friend would go to the extent of requesting the assistance of police to get his son to see his doctor!  As long as my friend's son consume his medication, he will be alright.  The medicine is meant to control or rectify the chemical imbalance in the patient's brain.  If he does not take his medication, there will be chemical imbalance.  When there is chemical imbalance, the schizophrenic patient will act abnormally even to the extent of causing harm to himself!  If i may, i would strongly advise you Ensapa to bring your friend to consult a medical specialist to treat his mental illness.

From the Dharmic point of view, the schizophrenic had accumulated a very heavy negative karma in his past lives to be what he is now.  He could had been possessed by spirits or controlled by nagas.  Unless these karmic creditors leave the patient, he will remain in the present state until his death or when the karma is exhausted.

You should also seek for divination with an authentic high lama for the next course of action for your friend. 

In Dharma we are taught to not listen to 'voices' that we may hear during meditations.  These voices come from spirits or other karmic creditors who want to deceive us into believing that we had accomplished something in our meditations when we did not! 

Even Lama Tsongkhapa had never believed his visions of Buddha Manjushri!  Hence, please advise your friend not to succumb to the voices that he had heard.

[Ensapa]

He is already on medications and have seen a  total of 4 different psychiatrists. He is also aware that he has schizophrenia and got help for it after watching a TV series about multiple personality disorder and realized that it was not normal and he could get help. Thing is medications dont help him much...he becomes inert when on them.

the reason why i want to post this here is ever since he has started making a connection with Shugden, his condition seemed to be improving. he is getting less and less psycho attacks. It's just the voice that is worrying us.

The point about Lama Tsongkhapa would help him a lot i guess. His psychiatrist has said that he needs a lot of support from friends to drag him out of his own world. So we'll just keep talking to him to pull him out. Luckily he is no longer violent or engage in self harm.

In this case i dont think its spirit harm because if it was his Lama would have known and his Lama has identified it before for others who are affected. But not in his case. The Lama did not say that he is under the influence of a spirit. He's been volunteering more often in his center, so i am guessing that it helps  too.

It is very draining and painful to deal with someone like that but all we can do is try. I can only imagine the amount of mental suffering that he is going through everyday.

Big Uncle, are you saying that there's literally no hope for my friend in Dharma? im just posting here to know what can be done and to learn if there is a Buddhist way to deal with  this.

[triesa]

Hi Ensapa,

May I ask what type of connections he has with DS when you said he is getting better? Is he doing a particular  DS mantra? Is he doing DS sadhana? If he is, then I believe the best for the time being (since you said he has visible improvement) is to continue to do what he is doing.

Karmic obsurations are sometimes so heavy that your friend may not even get a chance to become normal again this life. But the fact that he has started this connection with DS and he is happy doing it, then at least the Manjushri seed is planted, and it will definitely help him in all future lives.

[DharmaSpace]

Ensapa I kind of get this feeling that you are talking about yourself actually.

I think dharma can certainly help, but one should definitely get help from available sources. Has he gotten counseling before from a medical practitioner before? Illness aren't these karmically caused? If the causes are removed wont the illness go away too?

[gomchen]

Dear Ensapa,

I have worked with people with mental health problems for around eight years now and been practicing Dharma for longer.
You said that the medication is not helping much and is making your friend inert, Olanzapine does often make people like that, maybe he could try a lower dose or another medication, there are quite a few around and it is often a trial and error thing when it comes to mental illness. I guess this is because the Dr's don't understand the mind or the causes of mental ill health so can't treat the causes, only the symptoms. Only Buddha can understand the causes properly.
In my opinion alot of mental ill health, psycosis etc, comes from or is exaserbated by increased self grasping ignorance, people believe the strange thoughts they are having and often feel as though they are coming from outside of themselves. It is great that your friend has a conection with the Wisdom Buddha Dorje Shugden, as he will be able to bless him to reduce his self grasping. I have had quite alot of times when I have been with someone in a very strange situation and when I have turned to Dorje the situation has changed and the person seems better.
One thing that can help the person is to not oppose or confirm his strange ideas as this can compound his self grasping, just remain neutral and friendly.
Hope this is of some help.
Kind regards,
G R

[Ensapa]

triesa: He says he is doing Ganden Lhargyema and Dorje Shugden's short mantra. I doubt it. based on my research nobody really recovers from schizophrenia, it can only be suppressed. But i do hope that he will take a better rebirth not affected by this, although karma dictates  that he might go to a lower rebirth as he keeps triggering and creating negative seeds as his mind is uncontrollable. One thing interesting to note was that the psychiatrists have commented before (i went together with him) that he is much more stable compared to other patients that they have seen. This friend of mine is also very interested in Buddhism and has studied a lot on it as well, but is unable  to put anything into practice due to his slightly distorted perceptions of reality.

DharmaSpace: yes he has and i have personally went together with him. his doctors recommended cognitive behavioral therapy which requires a lot of support and patience from me and the rest of his close friends. We have to keep talking to him daily to prevent him from going into his own hole. We need to be available for him to talk to to allow him to check his mental states and if his perceptions sync with reality. And get him to open up and talk to us about his psychosis, coupled together with the meds. It is working so far but a Buddhist way would be nice as it can help him and others like him more also. But the biggest progress was when he decided to engage in Shugden.

gomchen:  the doctors keep increasing the dose because of that one voice until he is really fed up and scared and just lied to the doctor that he does not anymore. He is at around 20mg of it i think. But you're right -- it is due to intense self grasping. In the case of my friend, he encountered a very traumatic incident at the age of 5, and kept it a secret from everyone and went into denial by suppressing that memory. He grew up with emotionally abusive parents who would manipulate him mentally and destroy his self confidence repeatedly to make him easier to manage, and also prevented him from having a social life. He ended up with no friends for many years as he subconsciously pushed them away. So i can say that he was bitter and in intense mental suffering for many years. I guess that is how his schizophrenia developed because he told me he trusts his instincts more than any human as humans have only let him down. I am not sure if i were to be in his situation i would be able to keep my mind as well. But at least  now he has improvement thanks to the kindness of his Lama and Dorje Shugden.

I'm going to let him read this thread which should help him a lot. Thanks for all your feedback. They have been very insightful.

[DharmaSpace]

Ensapa I rejoice the practise is helping him and making the change that really matters. But lets talk more about perhaps of what he can do more to help to overcome the ban and probably what he can contribute in the lifting of the ban. By him contributing it might even speed up his recovery much faster. Why not get him on this forum?

I have witnessed Dorje Shugden heal a person with a very dangerous life threatening situation also. Enlightened beings defy the laws of science and logic, because science and logic now cannot match up to or has the tools to measure what enlightened beings can do.

[icy]

Dear Ensapa, I have a case of my own cousin sister who is schizophrenia and no matter of medication she had did not help.  Hence we seek consultation from a high lama in town.  Apparently, she is being possessed by wrathful land spirits.  Certain ritual and prayers were recommended to her by the high lama but in this case my uncle, a Christain, is against the belief had opposed to follow the recommendation.  She remains a schizophrenia till today and we could not help her because my uncle refuse us to step close to her and his land. 

I am certain that high lamas will be able to help your friend as advised by Wisdom Being.

[Big Uncle]

Dear Ensapa,

I have worked with people with mental health problems for around eight years now and been practicing Dharma for longer.
You said that the medication is not helping much and is making your friend inert, Olanzapine does often make people like that, maybe he could try a lower dose or another medication, there are quite a few around and it is often a trial and error thing when it comes to mental illness. I guess this is because the Dr's don't understand the mind or the causes of mental ill health so can't treat the causes, only the symptoms. Only Buddha can understand the causes properly.
In my opinion alot of mental ill health, psycosis etc, comes from or is exaserbated by increased self grasping ignorance, people believe the strange thoughts they are having and often feel as though they are coming from outside of themselves. It is great that your friend has a conection with the Wisdom Buddha Dorje Shugden, as he will be able to bless him to reduce his self grasping. I have had quite alot of times when I have been with someone in a very strange situation and when I have turned to Dorje the situation has changed and the person seems better.
One thing that can help the person is to not oppose or confirm his strange ideas as this can compound his self grasping, just remain neutral and friendly.
Hope this is of some help.
Kind regards,
G R

Thank you Gomchen. Your advice is perhaps one of the more practical ones here. Yes, I am pretty sure the patient can't be helped at this point as Ensapa said it himself, the patient cannot be healed medically. As long as the patient is under medication and does his prayers and studies of the Lamrim and what not, it should be alright.

How can a patient who needs all this support from others in order to appear and behave 'normally' - is considered practicing the Dharma? No way. If the patient is really schizo, then it cannot be helped and I am not saying don't help him/her. I am saying don't have any expectations, he/she will practice the Dharma. So, it is for us to practice the Dharma to help this person without any expectations. It is a speedy way towards attainments by developing compassion with this friend of yours.
 

[Big Uncle]

Ensapa I kind of get this feeling that you are talking about yourself actually.

That's a very interesting observation because I didn't think of it myself. Anyway, it was avoided altogether. Avoidance is synonymous with confirmation. If you know what I mean. Hehe!