China tries to make the Buddha smile - good sign for Dorje Shugden?

[Ensapa]

I wonder if China is biding their time, waiting for the right moment before openly declaring support for Dorje Shugden. Perhaps they are waiting to see which direction gains more momentum and support. Especially to see which countries in the Western hemisphere support the movement of Dorje Shugden.

For sure, China's support for Dorje Shugden has nothing to do with human rights, nor with equality. It would be a political move, to undermine the Dalai Lama’s and the Tibetan Administration’s policies. But while they bide their time to decide, as interest in Dorje Shugden grows amonst the people, perhaps as government officials get curious and try Shugden’s practice, and as the effectiveness of his practice is experienced by the populace, they may promote him for the right reasons eventually. I hope that is the case.

It does sound like it, but China already has their own Panchen Lama to undermine HHDL. They dont need Shugden. If it is big in China, it should be due to other reasons. Also, Samding Rinpoche (dorje pakmo) is on their side as well. They have more than enough Tibetans and religious authorities on their "side" to undermine HHDL's authority and hold. So personally it does not look like a political move. China may be paranoid but they are not known to overkill in a certain thing.

[DharmaSpace]

The Dalai Lama have sacrificed the future power and prestige of future Dalai Lamas by bringing about the ban of Dorje Shugden. He has given up political power, if the Dalai had any self related issues, why do what will undermine his future?

Dorje Shugden practise and influence is getting stronger and stronger why wont the Dalai Lama change tactics? He has at his disposal many scholars and academics who can probably find solutions to destroy the Dorje Shugden practise once and for all. Perhaps we can skilfully lead all chinese to enlightenment through Gyenze the Welath form of Dorje Shugen. Chinese people are most attracted to wealth.

[beggar]

It's a good sign to have more people practising Dorje Shugden!!

But if people practice Dorje Shugden with the motivation of putting DL down, and shorten DL life, is this a true Buddhist practitioner? And will the enlighten beings still help to fulfill the practitioner's will?

Hi poonlarp,
that's a very good question! Actually, most of us may not be holding the motivation to put down the Dalai Lama but I daresay that a majority of Dharma practitioners begin their path first with motivations that are not entirely pure. We may not admit it to ourselves, but many people are in for some personal gain at first - solve a problem, to look good, to show off, to make friends, to get rich etc.

From the side of the Buddhas, they do not love us any less. The Buddha himself (in this case, Dorje Shugden)  never moves from his state of compassion and wisdom. In this way, even if we are doing something with a negative motivation towards the Buddha, we still make a connection to him, no matter how bad it may be at first now. You see, even seeing the name of Dorje Shugden or seeing his image, leaves very powerful imprints in our mindstreams that can trigger some very positive karma from a previous time, or open up at a later time when are more ready for deeper practice. So there is actually, eventually, we benefit in whatever we do towards a Buddha. So, for these Chinese, even if they do have negative thoughts towards the Dalai Lama ... well, join the rest of us with all our unstable thoughts, negative attachments and selfish motivations! At least they are connecting to something super supreme while they're at it....

[yontenjamyang]

We can deduce that China and the Chinese people for the last 20 years or so have good collective Karma. This can be observe from their relative prosperity. Of course, as individuals, it differs from person to person. It is similar to USA during the last 200 years. That is why we have this saying of the "American Dream". The country, the land has good karma brought on by the beings who are born there. The opportunity is good.
What's my point, when one have good karma, for example being born in the gods/demi gods realm, one basically exhaust the merits more than gaining merits. China is now like that.
So they need more Dharma because they are in a more dangerous situation. I am sure the Buddhas will want to create the conditions to bless the Chinese more, if I am right. I am confident that Buddhism will make a very strong come back in China if it is not already happening.

[dsiluvu]

I wonder if China is biding their time, waiting for the right moment before openly declaring support for Dorje Shugden. Perhaps they are waiting to see which direction gains more momentum and support. Especially to see which countries in the Western hemisphere support the movement of Dorje Shugden.

For sure, China's support for Dorje Shugden has nothing to do with human rights, nor with equality. It would be a political move, to undermine the Dalai Lama’s and the Tibetan Administration’s policies. But while they bide their time to decide, as interest in Dorje Shugden grows amonst the people, perhaps as government officials get curious and try Shugden’s practice, and as the effectiveness of his practice is experienced by the populace, they may promote him for the right reasons eventually. I hope that is the case.

It does sound like it, but China already has their own Panchen Lama to undermine HHDL. They dont need Shugden. If it is big in China, it should be due to other reasons. Also, Samding Rinpoche (dorje pakmo) is on their side as well. They have more than enough Tibetans and religious authorities on their "side" to undermine HHDL's authority and hold. So personally it does not look like a political move. China may be paranoid but they are not known to overkill in a certain thing.

What other reasons could there be besides political and economic reasons? Everything that China does is motivated by these two reasons. By showing their approval and supporting Lama's that are opposed by the Tibetan Gvt/CTA is definitely a political move. Super imposing a thangka of Dorje Shugden behind the China's chosen Panchen Lama is definitely a huge slap on the CTA... that sure looked like a very political move. In fact the spread of Dorje Shugden in China has already begun... by them allowing Lama's and monasteries to practice Dorje Shugden. And slowly when the Chinese people pick the practice up, it will surely spread even further and bigger, it's just a matter of time...   

[valeriecheung]

I'm totally agreed with dsiluvu.

I'm personally think that unable to understand what's the real deal behind China govn, HHDL or CTA, but obviously DS practices had been spread wide and fast in china or globally. All the DS practitioner had no doubt about powerful and swiftly result of DS, so no matter how DDHL banned  cannot stop it. 

Sometimes i even think all this unhappy issue arise is because of KARMA. Karmic connection between tibet,china people,emperor Kangxi and etc with DS. Result of human action greedy,hatred and ignorance.

China so stupid how can they defeat an enlightened DS, have clairvoyance noticed their future plan. Actually is DS and LAMAS kindness whom spread DS wish to help china people.

[diamond girl]

While the political direction may be to put HH Dalai Lama down, i don't think that the average Chinese national would be petitioning Dorje Shugden for that purpose. I would imagine that the average Chinese national would be more inclined to petition Dorje Shugden for their personal well being, be it having a stable job, good income, happy relationships - romantic or family, and all other general wishes.

How would you define a "true Buddhist practitioner" anyway? All these things - wealth, health etc - without a dharma motivation - would not be the signs of a "true Buddhist practitioner" in the sense that these are all secular wishes. I believe that Dorje Shugden, as an enlightened being, would help practitioners to fulfil certain samsaric wishes in order that the practitioners can gain faith. Also, if these secular needs are met, the practitioner would be able to invest more time into dharma study and practice.

I like what you have said here WB. It is true that even if the Chinese government will support anti-DL sentiments, the average Chinese will be worshipping Dorje Shugden for very secular reasons as mentioned in your post. The Chinese people will need the reassurance from DS with the fulfillment of their personal wishes, and then only will faith develop to have them pray for more spiritual reasons. Material gains is what they understand and want as many Chinese are still struggling in many ways, and happiness and peace for them may be in material form for now.

[Ensapa]

I like what you have said here WB. It is true that even if the Chinese government will support anti-DL sentiments, the average Chinese will be worshipping Dorje Shugden for very secular reasons as mentioned in your post. The Chinese people will need the reassurance from DS with the fulfillment of their personal wishes, and then only will faith develop to have them pray for more spiritual reasons. Material gains is what they understand and want as many Chinese are still struggling in many ways, and happiness and peace for them may be in material form for now.

There are many reasons for the Chinese to worship Dorje Shugden, mainly, because Dorje Shugden appeals to them as Dorje Shugden offers protection and wealth and these are the 2 most sought after 'powers' that most Chinese have. Dorje Shugden's previous incarnation also happens to be Emperor Kangxi which gives him a karmic link to China. So it makes a lot of sense on why the Chinese will be attracted to Dorje Shugden, ban or no ban, and from there he will grow very, very big in all the ways.

[Big Uncle]

Well, it is no doubt that many Chinese now and in the future would be interested and would even practice Dorje Shugden. Their reasons are simple and that is for material, emotional and to a smaller extent spiritual well-being just like many other people throughout the world. That one is pretty clear and established but I really don't think the Chinese government would be adopting or promoting Dorje Shugden at this point in time.

Well, I think that the only reason the Chinese government is encouraging and supporting of Dorje Shugden lamas is the fact that their belief is against the Dalai Lamas and that causes a split in Tibetan politics and their support of the Dalai Lama. They are also hoping that by supporting and encouraging Dorje Shugden lamas and institution that they will be more supportive of the Chinese government and hopefully downplay or quell Tibetan discontent. However, they will not financially help any Shugden practitioner because there's just too many and not really in the interest of the atheist Chinese state.

[Blueupali]

Well, it is no doubt that many Chinese now and in the future would be interested and would even practice Dorje Shugden. Their reasons are simple and that is for material, emotional and to a smaller extent spiritual well-being just like many other people throughout the world. That one is pretty clear and established but I really don't think the Chinese government would be adopting or promoting Dorje Shugden at this point in time.

Well, I think that the only reason the Chinese government is encouraging and supporting of Dorje Shugden lamas is the fact that their belief is against the Dalai Lamas and that causes a split in Tibetan politics and their support of the Dalai Lama. They are also hoping that by supporting and encouraging Dorje Shugden lamas and institution that they will be more supportive of the Chinese government and hopefully downplay or quell Tibetan discontent. However, they will not financially help any Shugden practitioner because there's just too many and not really in the interest of the atheist Chinese state.

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Big Uncle,
  I am afraid I have to agree with you that the Chinese government is taking advantage of the split that the Dalai Lama caused with the Shugden ban; they hope to acheive political gain by playing the Buddhists against each other; unfortunately, due to the blind fanatacism that many feel for the Dalai Lama, it works to ostracize the Shugden population.  Ironically, while everyone is acting like the Shugdens are bad and the Dalai Lama will save them, when the Dalai Lama backed the Chinese Karmapa years ago, it was evident that he was making concessions to China, at the expense of Tibet, to return there, and allow the Chinese Karmapa to possibly lead the next generation of Tibetans.  The Dalai Lama has used the Shugden ban to create a diversion from what he is doing to what prayers "bad people" are praying.  Meanwhile, it seems like the CTA is on the page of going back there, and trying to rule some sort of fuedalistic sort of government under China's authority.... so once again.... it'd be a good idea to pray to Dorje Shugden to remove the politics from the religion.  We just don't need politics and religion mixed, obviously....

[Ensapa]

Well, it is no doubt that many Chinese now and in the future would be interested and would even practice Dorje Shugden. Their reasons are simple and that is for material, emotional and to a smaller extent spiritual well-being just like many other people throughout the world. That one is pretty clear and established but I really don't think the Chinese government would be adopting or promoting Dorje Shugden at this point in time.

Well, I think that the only reason the Chinese government is encouraging and supporting of Dorje Shugden lamas is the fact that their belief is against the Dalai Lamas and that causes a split in Tibetan politics and their support of the Dalai Lama. They are also hoping that by supporting and encouraging Dorje Shugden lamas and institution that they will be more supportive of the Chinese government and hopefully downplay or quell Tibetan discontent. However, they will not financially help any Shugden practitioner because there's just too many and not really in the interest of the atheist Chinese state.

But in a way, it does promote Buddhism and Dorje Shugden, and that the Chinese government of late has shown heavy preference for Buddhism as compared to islam and christianity. So to me that is a very good sign of things to come. The other reason of why China supports Dorje Shugden could also be because there are many Dorje Shugden practitioners still in Tibet - contrary to what the CTA wants to believe, and because of that, China would want what is best for the Tibetans and would love their input on country matters.

[WisdomBeing]

Buddhism and China have a very long history, despite the blip during the Cultural Revolution, hence it is natural for China to be more inclined towards Buddhism. Especially as Tibet is now a part of China, Tibetan Buddhism will be more prevalent, and there are already Tibetan Buddhist elements throughout China, such as the Lama Tsongkhapa statue in Yong He Gung temple in Beijing.

Whatever the reasons China has for supporting Dorje Shugden practitioners, i think that they are continuing to do so because they see that Dorje Shugden lamas are willing to work with the Chinese authorities and all the Chinese authorities wish for is a stable environment for its peoples. Dorje Shugden lamas are also willing to work with the Chinese because they can see that if they work together with the authorities as opposed to against them, it will allow more freedom for Dorje Shugden practitioners, even to the extent of Dorje Shugden lamas being allowed to travel internationally. It is a win-win situation. For the Dorje Shugden lamas, the more exposure of the people to Dorje Shugden means the more exposure to Manjushri and that people will have Dharma seeds planted, whatever the reasons why the Chinese are propitiating Dorje Shugden. Even if the reasons are secular, the eventual result will be spiritual.

[Ensapa]

Buddhism and China have a very long history, despite the blip during the Cultural Revolution, hence it is natural for China to be more inclined towards Buddhism. Especially as Tibet is now a part of China, Tibetan Buddhism will be more prevalent, and there are already Tibetan Buddhist elements throughout China, such as the Lama Tsongkhapa statue in Yong He Gung temple in Beijing.

Whatever the reasons China has for supporting Dorje Shugden practitioners, i think that they are continuing to do so because they see that Dorje Shugden lamas are willing to work with the Chinese authorities and all the Chinese authorities wish for is a stable environment for its peoples. Dorje Shugden lamas are also willing to work with the Chinese because they can see that if they work together with the authorities as opposed to against them, it will allow more freedom for Dorje Shugden practitioners, even to the extent of Dorje Shugden lamas being allowed to travel internationally. It is a win-win situation. For the Dorje Shugden lamas, the more exposure of the people to Dorje Shugden means the more exposure to Manjushri and that people will have Dharma seeds planted, whatever the reasons why the Chinese are propitiating Dorje Shugden. Even if the reasons are secular, the eventual result will be spiritual.

In any case, support for Dorje Shugden is increasing in China, and with that comes more support for Buddhism and a lot more tolerance for Tibet as well as the people in China in general. It would usher in a more tolerant and open China and now we can see the results is that the picture of the Dalai Lama is now allowed to be displayed in monasteries. This is for sure not a result of the self immolations, but a variety of factors, one of them being Dorje Shugden being supported and also the Dalai Lama saying that his middle way policy is not independence.

[DharmaSpace]

The long history between China and Buddhism has shown that Buddhism is here to endure and it is not a religion  that is detrimental to CHina's well being.China is after interested in the CHina and not much else around the world if they can help it. So the Chinese would rather choose an enemy that they know than an unknown friend that is how their minds work.

. So it is a win win for the Chinese to support Dorje Shugden practice and Buddhism, as to have another religion other than Buddhism as the dominant religion could really destabilise China and nobody wants that. China knows Buddhism many many centuries now so Buddhism is safe.

[Ensapa]

The long history between China and Buddhism has shown that Buddhism is here to endure and it is not a religion  that is detrimental to CHina's well being.China is after interested in the CHina and not much else around the world if they can help it. So the Chinese would rather choose an enemy that they know than an unknown friend that is how their minds work.

. So it is a win win for the Chinese to support Dorje Shugden practice and Buddhism, as to have another religion other than Buddhism as the dominant religion could really destabilise China and nobody wants that. China knows Buddhism many many centuries now so Buddhism is safe.

China can always look back at their history to learn and discover that it is due to Buddhism that they had peace and stability. In every dynasty where Buddhism was the prominent religion, there was peace but when another religion takes over, there was a lot of instability and rife. So it is only natural that the Chinese will want to endorse Buddhism more and more compared to other religions due to this fact. But in any case, China is now unofficially Buddhist although they still tell people that they do not have a religion, but many of their officials are now Buddhists, although this is not disclosed openly as so to not contradict their communist position.