It is not working out, so how long more to wait?

[Mana]

It is said that the reason why Dalai Lama bans Dorje Shugden is because Dalai Lama wants to unite the whole Tibetan Buddhism, thus he has to remove any practice that seems too bias/sectarian towards a single sect, and in this case Dorje Shugden has to be sacrificed because He is too "Gelug".

Now, it has been decades that the ban has been reinforced, but there is not a single sign of consolidation of all sects of Tibetan Buddhism, Nyingma Kagyu Sakya stiil carry out there own business with their own Dharma kings, without paying much attention to the Dalai Lama. One prominent example is on the choice of Karmapa, apparently the factions that supported Sharmapa's choice is as strong as the faction that supported Dalai Lama's endorsement.

So, obviously it is not working out, the plan to unite all sects, in fact it went the opposite way. Perhaps it is high time to scrap the grandiose idea already? How long more should we wait?
 

[beggar]

Yes, well it's clear it's definitely not working out.

It never made sense to me that the Dalai Lama's approach to uniting all schools is to first break up his own school of Buddhism. Logically, doesn't that mean you are creating more work to unite even more disparate and separated factions? Now, there are even more differences to overcome, less similarities, more conflicts, more separation between people even when they're from the same sect. Far from uniting, it seems to becoming even more chaotic, disjointed and dysfunctional. Unfortunately for Tibetan Buddhism, it certainly seems like the prophecies of old are coming true - that Buddhism will be ruined from the inside by its own people.

Something hopeful to anticipate from all this perhaps? That maybe amidst all the bickering in the Gelugpa school of Buddhism, another brand new school will arise, which will hold Dorje Shugden as its protector. This is already happening with the strong establishment of Serpom and Shar Gaden, and I believe that there is also a group in Asia under the guidance of Serkong Tritul Rinpoche that have even changed the colour of their robes to green, marking the birth of a new school and tradition of their own.

Bring on the game for the survival of the fittest...

[Ensapa]

it seems as tho the Dalai Lama is preparing for the groundwork for something to happen to Gelug. Reliable sources have said that the ban is only temporary and in a few years the ban will be lifted.

given the deep resentment of the other schools towards Gelugpa, i dont believe that they will be united at all. nyigma and kagyu will always share a close bond with interchangeable lineage masters, sakya will remain a stronghold of its own (although technically they share a close bond with gelug, much like the relationship between nyigma and kagyu) and to replace the eclecticism in Gelug they have Rime.

From the looks of it, if gelug masters reincarnate into other lineages, establish themselves in that lineage then return to gelug, that would be the only way to "unite" them as that was how kagyu and nyigma was united.

A reliable source has tell me that the banning of the protector has drawn out deep seated issues between the schools, namely the anti gelugpa sentiment that everyone has been hiding. I believe this is what HHDL wants to see and to bring it out in the open. 

[WisdomBeing]

I think that the separation of the Tibetan schools cannot be changed - each school has different practices and lineage masters. The only way to unite would be to have a new school as the great master Tsongkhapa did in the 14th century, when he saw that there was much to be desired from the state of Buddhism in Tibet at the time. Hence, he combined the best out of all the schools and created the Gelug school. So instead of uniting what perhaps cannot be united, a new school is highly possible, as beggar has suggested.

It's sad that there is disharmony between the schools - surely the whole basis of Buddhism is harmony and respect. I don't think it's to do so much with the teachings but the humans who are practising them. I hear there is a lot of jealousy between schools eg when Gelug became one of the fastest growing schools, there was much unhappiness in the other schools. Shouldn't we rejoice when any school grows? Because it means that Buddhism is growing?

There is more fighting among ourselves than anything - especially about the Shugden issue. There are fights within the Gelug school and even among Shugden practitioners. It's so sad! And the prediction that Buddhism will be destroyed from within brings chills to my spine. It has been predicted and Buddhists are still not taking heed.

[dondrup]

Buddhism has evolved since 2500 years ago when Buddha first turned the wheel of Dharma.  It is due to the different dispositions of disciples that Buddha had taught 84000 teachings. There are so many different ways to accomplish liberation and enlightenment.  Hence it is not surprising to see the many different lineages and traditions of Buddhism in existence today. 
 
HH Dalai Lama tried to unite all the Tibetan Buddhism Schools.   Below are some of the reasons why I feel that it is difficult to unite all these traditions:

1)  Harmony
Where is the harmony when Dorje Shugden practitioners are segregated from the other practitioners?   

2)  Leadership
HH Dalai Lama does not seem to have the full support of the different head of the respective sects i.e. Nyingma, Sakya, Kagyu and Gelug

3)  Constitution and Law
Countries are ruled by their constitution and law.  Companies and societies are governed by Companies and Societies Acts.  Each organization has its own rules and regulations.  HH Dalai Lama does not seem to have a constitution in place yet for this purpose.

4)  Preservation of the uniqueness and purity of each tradition and method. 
How do we unite all the different diverse methods in each tradition?  No sect will abandon what has been passed down from their lineage masters.  We can’t change the formula of practice. The only way is to continue to maintain all these methods under one single tradition.  But HH Dalai Lama does not encourage sectarianism or biasness!

5)  No precedence
Buddha Shakyamuni had not united all the different schools of Buddhism. Is there a need to unite now?
 
Based on the above, perhaps HH Dalai Lama should abandon the idea of unification but instead focus on preserving the uniqueness of each tradition before they are lost in this degenerate age?  The process of unification may result in the loss of the tradition.
 

[Galen]

I think that the separation of the Tibetan schools cannot be changed - each school has different practices and lineage masters. The only way to unite would be to have a new school as the great master Tsongkhapa did in the 14th century, when he saw that there was much to be desired from the state of Buddhism in Tibet at the time. Hence, he combined the best out of all the schools and created the Gelug school. So instead of uniting what perhaps cannot be united, a new school is highly possible, as beggar has suggested.

It's sad that there is disharmony between the schools - surely the whole basis of Buddhism is harmony and respect. I don't think it's to do so much with the teachings but the humans who are practising them. I hear there is a lot of jealousy between schools eg when Gelug became one of the fastest growing schools, there was much unhappiness in the other schools. Shouldn't we rejoice when any school grows? Because it means that Buddhism is growing?

There is more fighting among ourselves than anything - especially about the Shugden issue. There are fights within the Gelug school and even among Shugden practitioners. It's so sad! And the prediction that Buddhism will be destroyed from within brings chills to my spine. It has been predicted and Buddhists are still not taking heed.

I do totally agree with Wisdom Being that every school has different practices and lineage masters. It will be very difficult for the Dalia Lama to unite all schools as of now he does not have the support of all the schools. The more he tries, the segregation will occur. There are also many disagreements in the respective schools themselves.

It is also because the Dalai Lama has promised before that Tibet will gain independence soon but until now there is no progress on that. Maybe this has also cause a decline in the credibility of the Dalai Lama amongst the schools.

If there is a need to unite Tibetan Schools of Buddhism, there is none other that the Dalai Lama himself who can perform this huge task. He is the face of Buddhism and also has influence around the world. Wehn he leaves, then who can take over his place?

[hope rainbow]

Interesting topic at hand here.
It sounds like we are debating a political scheme.

Politics in the world of Buddhism.

But I did not see it mentioned here that all schools of Buddhism are united anyway, as they propitiate, protect and practice the teachings of the Buddha.

The teachings may vary from one interpretation to another and form one person to another.
We just need to look within the same community, be  it a monastery or a Dharma center, everybody has differences in its practice, some are given these practices and others given other practices and by the same Guru.

I think it is not the schools and the differences between the schools that are important, what matters is the goal to which the teachings of the various schools of Buddhism lead the practitioners to.
That goal is the same, regardless of the schools, of the colour of the robes.

The boats may have different styles, but they are going towards the same place.
And when that place has been reached, does it matter what colour the boat was?

Yet, when we are on our journey, we can't help but look at other boats and compare and make judgments, this one is bigger, this one has an engine, this one has sails, this one has a buffet 3 times a day, this one, that one, etc...

In reality I cannot know what the Dalai Lama's objectives are, I can infer and use a logic mind to try to understand, with the help of my Guru. But I rely on this: the Dalai Lama knows better than me what must be done.

[kris]

I heard someone has shared before that monks in Shar Gaden mentioned that HH Dalai Lama has intention to unite ALL Buddhism (Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana), not just the 4 sects in Vajrayana.

Anyway, I felt it is not necessary and also no quite possible to combine all of them. To me, it is also like trying to combine all different races into one, it is utterly not necessary. The reason why there are many schools of Buddhism because they are meant for different situation and also different region will have their own "flavor"...

Whatever it is, what is important is it still based the teaching on Shakyamuni and it brings happiness.

[happysun]

I believe the day to dispel the ban will be very soon from now on. The reason is very simple, have you see all the people who sincerely practice dorje shugden be going crazy?mad?bad luck?disturb by demon?interrupt by spirit? And the centre or monastery which practice dorje shugden become poor or damage?? No right!!!

That why I believe this protector will be very popular in future. Because he can rescue many people who suffering in mentally problem. The ban will be destroy because the need from all sentient beings. I not try to be smart, but I think in this crucial time let's us work on it. Work hard to break down this ban wall is our responsibility who is supporter of dorje shugden.     

[beggar]

I heard someone has shared before that monks in Shar Gaden mentioned that HH Dalai Lama has intention to unite ALL Buddhism (Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana), not just the 4 sects in Vajrayana.

That's a pretty bold step. I simply do not understand how this will be done. It will be like attempting to unite all the different schools of Christianity, or even all the different religions in the world.
Ultimately, the teachings are the same, across all religions - of kindness, compassion, brotherhood, peace etc but different religions and schools have evolved because of the very nature of the human mind, different attitudes, propensities, aptitudes, inclinations, backgrounds and cultures.

Like Hope Rainbow pointed out (giving hope, as always) the teachings ARE all the same across all Buddhism and therefore are already united in that way, but the different methods and schools are necessary to reach out to the many, many different minds and people out there.

To initiate something like this could only be a political move and not a spiritual one, I think?

[Ensapa]

I heard someone has shared before that monks in Shar Gaden mentioned that HH Dalai Lama has intention to unite ALL Buddhism (Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana), not just the 4 sects in Vajrayana.

Anyway, I felt it is not necessary and also no quite possible to combine all of them. To me, it is also like trying to combine all different races into one, it is utterly not necessary. The reason why there are many schools of Buddhism because they are meant for different situation and also different region will have their own "flavor"...

Whatever it is, what is important is it still based the teaching on Shakyamuni and it brings happiness.

that could be done by the 25th Dalai Lama aka King of Shambala.

it could be that from an ortodox angle, the other traditions are interpreted in a way that the layman finds comfortable and not by the way it should be = corruption. Also, compared to Tibetan Buddhism, the teachers tend to give Dharma talks specifically aimed to please people rather than to deliver actual Dharma. After witnessing these first hand I can understand why HHDL wants to do such a move. But it is a rather ambitious one.

I do respect all lineages and traditions, but not when its followers start spouting horrible theories and angles of how they think Buddhism should be. there are now movements in Malaysia where the sangha is comprised entirely of laity, and they do not trust the ordained persons with anything, basically they remove their reliance from ordained persons. It's not exactly a pretty sight. There is also another movement called original buddhism where scholars pick only the texts that sound 'authentic', removing "cultural" and "ritualistic" elements from them, and with obvious lack of research.

With these things happening, how can not one worry about the future of Dharma? I think that is the reason behind HHDL wanting to unite.

[thor]

I heard someone has shared before that monks in Shar Gaden mentioned that HH Dalai Lama has intention to unite ALL Buddhism (Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana), not just the 4 sects in Vajrayana.

Anyway, I felt it is not necessary and also no quite possible to combine all of them. To me, it is also like trying to combine all different races into one, it is utterly not necessary. The reason why there are many schools of Buddhism because they are meant for different situation and also different region will have their own "flavor"...

Whatever it is, what is important is it still based the teaching on Shakyamuni and it brings happiness.

I agree with you Kris. I dont see any reason why the Dalai Lama should want to unite the different sects of Buddhism. Tibetan Buddhism has flourished from 1 sect to now 4 sects and maybe a 5th one being recognised soon. Each sect is different, caters to different types of people, has its own entirely valid traditions and ultimate, all teach the path to Enlighenment. Why try to force people who are doing well on their own, to conform to one school of thought? Whats next? Uniting Mahayana and Hinayana schools under one roof too?

Why promote inter-religious harmony and dialogue when behind the scenes you are trying to override centuries of tradition and faith under a single school? Where is the harmony in that? What Nobel Peace Prize are we talking about?

Now, going back to the origins of the other schools of Tibetan Buddhism ie Karma Kagyu, Sakya and Gelug, I wonder if there was similar conflict when each of the schools were started. Was it as tumultuous and conflicting as the current situation with Dorje Shugden, whereby the green robes under Serkong Tritul Rinpoche is starting? Could someone who has studied Buddhist history elucidate?

[hope rainbow]

Now, going back to the origins of the other schools of Tibetan Buddhism ie Karma Kagyu, Sakya and Gelug, I wonder if there was similar conflict when each of the schools were started.
Was it as tumultuous and conflicting as the current situation with Dorje Shugden, whereby the green robes under Serkong Tritul Rinpoche is starting?
Could someone who has studied Buddhist history elucidate?

That is a very relevant question.
We take schools for granted, but indeed, there MUST have been a need, reasons and a cause for them to spring.
And it can't have been that easy!
This knowledge would give us some historical background to understand better what is happening today.

[Ensapa]

According to what I know, each school sprung up to either revive or preserve the Dharma that was disseminated to Tibet at that time. For example, the Gelug school appeared to unite the lineages and to reinforce the importance of the Vinaya. Nyigma was established so that Guru Rinpoche's teachings will not disappear over time. Sakya and Kagyu was established so that there is a system to help maintain the authenticity of the teachings so that they do not degenerate over time. The more lineages the better as if one lineage gets corrupted or ends, another lineage can take over as a backup. Many lineages have died off by now, or has been absorbed by other lineages so this system is in working order. Imagine if there is only 1 lineage and that lineage ends. That will be the end of it all.

[Barzin]

I still don't get it.  I never thought so that HHDL would try such move until I read about this topic and got me thinking. With no offense, is it possible to accomplish this in this very life?  I respect His Holiness a lot and of course what he can see is beyond our thinking, that is why we are discussing here.  After hearing what everyone had said, I too agreed that it is quite impossible.   Over the years, Buddhism has spread to many different parts of the world, we have cultural differences, languages differences and different practices.  I don't see how HHDL is possible to unite all sec and follow just Tibetan Buddhism structure.  Even til today people are still debating about which sec is better and with no offense even HHDL is talking about which protector is not to be practiced!!!  So in such a short time, how can it be possible??!!

Each sec has different method yet the goal is the same.  So I wondered is it possible that HHDL is manifesting flaws and on the other hand promoting Dorje Shugden to other sec of Buddhism?  I guess we can only know when the time comes.  One sec or one Buddhism is not quite possible but one protector, one practice is possible.  Can this protector unite us all?