It is not working out, so how long more to wait?

[Ensapa]

Why didnt the Dalai lama decide to reform Dorje shugdens reputation instead of slight it ?

In my opinion and observation, it is now that most Dorje Shugden practitioners really shine as they can show their true grit and the results of their Dharma practice, and hold the 6 parimitas. In other words, the ban created quality practitioners that were not available before. And since they keep their resilience and compassion despite the ban, the "surviving" practitioners definitely accumulate much more merit since they offer more sincerity and effort to practice even though they can choose the easy way out of giving it up.

[hope rainbow]

I can't help but think that there are probably many other ways to 'promote' Dorje Shugden rather than one that involves people getting hurt.....

I also agree with you Losang Tenpa.
People getting hurt along the way is just not acceptable, this must be stopped.
This is our practice as Shugdenpa's, to retore the truths about this exceptional protector and stop this spiritual apartheid going on.
This website I think is exactly about that, it is helping for the ban to be lifted and for many to find solace.
But it is not enough, and that people suffer because of their practice is unacceptable.
Explaining the reasons behind the Dalai Lama's ban does not make all the sufferings acceptable, not at all!
Let's be intelligent about this, someone has to be, or else all will go insane and even more .. samsaric!

[Positive Change]

I can't help but think that there are probably many other ways to 'promote' Dorje Shugden rather than one that involves people getting hurt.....

Well the thing is... as Buddhist, do we not believe in karma? If so, whatever happens to us we believe it to be the results of our previous actions which is resulting in our experiencing a particular bad situation resulting from negative karma. Hence, if we apply that to what is happening with regards to the terrible stories of "oppression" and "hurt" that are a result of the ban with a so called a higher motivation, should we not fold our hands and say. "so be it Your Holiness", who is after all a living Buddha.

Some of us are practising without much obstacles compared to some of our dharma brother and sisters... why is that? The very disparity that exists in life which gives us a clear indication of cause and effect of karma and the existence of reincarnation can still be "set aside" because we believe we are wronged by someone else.

Are we not as practising Buddhist supposed to accept and work on this very instrumental truth of existence. Why take the pity route? Just accept, move on and make the most of it and create the causes for a better future by not creating more negativity in fighting fire with fire. Education and information is the key... that is why I have to reiterate the importance of this website and what it gives us all. Many many thanks to the creators and may this instrument of truth be the cause of the lifting of the ban soon!

[Losang_Tenpa]

it was a simple statement. To infer I am 'taking the pity route', ot do not understand karma is a bit of a projection on your part.

[hope rainbow]

It was a simple statement.
To infer I am 'taking the pity route', ot do not understand karma is a bit of a projection on your part.

I do wish that there would be another way than the way His Holiness is using, and by another way, I mean a way that did not involve people creating a very sad and damaging apartheid.

What we must be very careful with on this matter, and I am being very, very serious here, is how we judge or project of/on His Holiness actions.
And I think it is crucial that we watch our thoughts and how we express our thoughts on the matter.

Sorry Losang Tenpa, I do not mean any disrepect, I am only using your post to make a point here (ehhehe... maybe you posted it on purpose...).
When we say this "I can't help but think that there are probably many other ways to 'promote' Dorje Shugden rather than one that involves people getting hurt.....", it may imply a train of thoughts that could mis-lead some.
Maybe this is not the train of thought that was that of Losang Tenpa (and I believe it was not actually), but other people reading this on the forum may generate a train of thought that:

1. implies that "I" know better than His Holiness,
2. implies that His Holiness chose a way creating war rather than peace,
3. implies that the Dalai Lama is not qualified,
4. implies that His Holiness is wrong.

The reality is much more complex than how we understand it from a samsaric-worldly (un-enlightened) point of view.

If one is a student of the Dalai Lama, I think one must be very careful about his/her train of thoughts over the ban, for it would certainly not help for the ban to be lifted if one creates negative thoughts towards his Guru (His Holiness in this case). This creates confusion and creates causes to be away from the Guru.

If one is not a student of the Dalai Lama, I think one should refrain from creating doubts in the mind of His Holiness students, or disparage someone else's Guru. And there are many ways to express the hurt and tears we all have when we witness the dispair that many lay people and many monks experienced because of the ban. Or perhaps more specific ways that do not leave other readers (especially new readers) to assume things and mis-understand what is going on.

The good news is this: there are many ways for us to participate to the lifting of the ban, because the ban will be lifted. And what we can do for that does not involve for people to suffer, in fact it makes it so that less people will suffer.
What we can do is simple, spread the truth, participate to this forum, write to people about the Protector, make sure we have a clean samaya with our Guru(s), engage daily in Pujas with our Protector, sponsor Dorje Shugden's related work, and do that without delay and not sparing any effort.
This will generate the causes for the ban to be lifted, I take this from an extremely reliable source.

So there are many "other ways to promote Dorje Shugden rather than one that involves people getting hurt", there are, but these ways are for us to use and this statement does not imply anything towards the Dalai Lama's actions.

I pray that soon enough, we will be able to put the apartheid to rest and restore the truth about Dorje Shugden to a point where the ban becomes irelevant and no-one has to suffer from it aymore.

[vajratruth]

The good news is this: there are many ways for us to participate to the lifting of the ban, because the ban will be lifted. And what we can do for that does not involve for people to suffer, in fact it makes it so that less people will suffer.
What we can do is simple, spread the truth, participate to this forum, write to people about the Protector, make sure we have a clean samaya with our Guru(s), engage daily in Pujas with our Protector, sponsor Dorje Shugden's related work, and do that without delay and not sparing any effort.
This will generate the causes for the ban to be lifted, I take this from an extremely reliable source.

So there are many "other ways to promote Dorje Shugden rather than one that involves people getting hurt", there are, but these ways are for us to use and this statement does not imply anything towards the Dalai Lama's actions.

I pray that soon enough, we will be able to put the apartheid to rest and restore the truth about Dorje Shugden to a point where the ban becomes irelevant and no-one has to suffer from it aymore.

Wise words from Hope Rainbow. I can understand that it difficult to see what is going and how the ban has affected the lives of many members of the Sangha and Shugden practitioners.

However one can propagate Dorje Shugden and introduce the practice to friends without bundling in the politics and speculation of HHDL's motives as well. Sometimes too much emphasis is placed on the "controversy" and in that process, the benefit of Dorje Shugden becomes emotionally charged.

Dorje Shugden's story[ http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=9832/ ] itself has so much attractiveness to it. I email it to friends and put it up on my social pages for people to download and learn about this great Protector.

[hope rainbow]

I shall quote Lama Zopa here:
(talk to students of the FPMT’s Masters Program at Istituto Lama Tzong Khapa, 22 October 2000)

"
Some of you may be familiar with this issue, others may not. However, whereas so far I’ve just been talking about general advice, where one guru tells you not to do something and another says to do it, what I’m doing is leading up to the specific issue of the practice of Shugden. One guru tells you “Don’t practice this protector”; another says, “Practice this protector.” You find yourself getting conflicting instructions from different gurus. How are you supposed to know what to do? What you have to do is use your wisdom. Analyze the various instructions you have received to determine which course of action is the most beneficial for sentient beings, which creates fewest problems. Once you have reached a conclusion, practice that.

The teachings also explain what to do if your guru tells you to do something that you can’t do, that is beyond your capacity; something that you cannot transform into the path to enlightenment and would create heavy negative karma if you did it. For example, if your guru tells you to do something very heavy, like killing a human being, but from your side you feel that you don’t have the capacity to do it, how do you handle that situation?

It is said in the teachings, “Like an actor, the one Dharmakaya, the great bliss, the ultimate guru, manifests in many different forms.”

Therefore, from your side, you must look at the holy minds of all the gurus with whom you have made a Dharma connection as the great, blissful Dharmakaya. You must see them as being completely free of error and in possession of all good qualities. Your mind must look at all of them as Buddha. By keeping your mind in that view, you don’t lose your guru devotion. If continuously you keep in mind that your gurus are Buddha, non-devotional thoughts, such as disbelief, anger and so forth, do not arise. It is extremely important to avoid generating negative thoughts towards your gurus because such minds create enormous obstacles not only to gaining realizations but even to temporary success. However, the Vinaya teachings say, “If your guru tells you to do something that is not Dharma, do not do it.
”

[triesa]

In a way, the DS ban initiated by HHDL has clearly made Shugden more famous, more known and more researched on.  And we can see there are more and more DS monastaries being built, more and more high lamas made their stance to the the DS camp. Dorje Shugden could well be in the making of a school of its own, thanks to HHDL.

So who say HHDL cannot unite all sects of buddhism?? May be Dorje Shugden is the answer.

[Ensapa]

It is said that the reason why Dalai Lama bans Dorje Shugden is because Dalai Lama wants to unite the whole Tibetan Buddhism, thus he has to remove any practice that seems too bias/sectarian towards a single sect, and in this case Dorje Shugden has to be sacrificed because He is too "Gelug".

Now, it has been decades that the ban has been reinforced, but there is not a single sign of consolidation of all sects of Tibetan Buddhism, Nyingma Kagyu Sakya stiil carry out there own business with their own Dharma kings, without paying much attention to the Dalai Lama. One prominent example is on the choice of Karmapa, apparently the factions that supported Sharmapa's choice is as strong as the faction that supported Dalai Lama's endorsement.

So, obviously it is not working out, the plan to unite all sects, in fact it went the opposite way. Perhaps it is high time to scrap the grandiose idea already? How long more should we wait?

Well there are a few problems with the unification picture that HHDL is painting. To me, it is just another excuse for him to take control of the other lineages, and also to ban Dorje Shugden.

1) Nyingma, Kagyu and Sakya are ALREADY unified by a movement called Rime. This is why we can observe some lamas being addressed as both a Nyingma and Kagyu Lama such as Chongyam Trungpa for example, who takes teachings from both Dilgo Khyentse (Nyingma) and the Karmapa (Kagyu). So HHDL's point of unification is not exactly valid because its already there. Unless he is thinking of adding Gelug to the mix and polluting the teachings.

2) There is NO POINT of unification at this day and age. Why? because people have too much to choose from and too many choices to just follow one teaching and go all the way. Also, each tradition has their unique points and should we just mash them up together?

3) Lineage. If everything is unified, who will be transmitting the lineage intact? Who can actually do so many sadhanas daily if each practice has their own daily commitments?

So i am thinking, HHDL is saying this to unify the Tibetans, not the lineages.

[Dondrup Shugden]

Acceptance is one of the great practices of Buddhism under any doctrine, Theravadan, Mahayan and Vajrayana.  As such it is not correct for the Dalai Lama to wish to unite and combine all Buddhist schools into one.

As human beings due to Karma, environmental and other circumstances are at different level of their spiritual journey, it is important for them to have the choice to which level of Buddhist Doctrine will best suit them.

Buddhism is basically about the 4 noble truths and the 8 fold paths, and the founder, Shakyumi had to teach in 84,000 ways. Why not different schools who teach the same tenets in different ways.

Instead of uniting all Buddhist schools, the unity must now be within the Gelug tradition and this will happen when freedom of worship of Dorje Shugden is permitted and I implore the Dalai Lama to do so soon instead of creating bad publicity to Tibetan Buddhism on the whole.

[Matibhadra]

the unity must now be within the Gelug tradition and this will happen when freedom of worship of Dorje Shugden is permitted and I implore the Dalai Lama to do so

The more you implore, the less the evil dalie will listen to you. And why? Because his aim, as the aim of his Western puppet-masters, is precisely to break Gelugpa unity apart.

Gelugpas are the main force within Tibetan society. Therefore, in order to drive a wedge between China and Tibet, there is a need either to coopt Gelugpas, or to destroy them.

However, Gelugpas, followers as they are of pure lamas such as Phabongka and Trijang Rinpoches, are not into selling their country to Western bankster-colonizers. It is not possible to coopt them.

The only remaining solution, therefore, is to break Gelugpas apart, whence the anti-Shugden ban. The 13th evil dalie, already a Western puppet himself, enforced the ban, now continued by the current, evil dalie.

Western mass-media and Western scholar-propagandists are unanimous in their support of the ban. They are all fed by the dictatorial power of Western bankster money, whence their unanimity.

Bottom line, you can keep imploring your evil dalie as much as you want, but your naive, misguided requests will never yield any result.

[Dondrup Shugden]

I believe not in what is happening with the Western people dictates but rather the Karma of cause and effect.

As such I will continue to pray and implore the Dalai Lama and CTA to lift the ban and do whatever possible for it to happen.

Karma is acceptance of the situation and create the cause for a change.

At the same time to request for the Ban against Dorje Shugden is pure for the benefit of many towards the propitiation of Dorje Shugden and when creating this cause with purity, it can happen.

[Matibhadra]

I believe not in what is happening with the Western people dictates but rather the Karma of cause and effect.

Then, by the same token, you believe not in US atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, because you only believe in the karma of cause and effect.

Also, you believe not in the US carpet bombing Laos, Camboja, Korea, Vietnam, and so forth, because you only believe in the karma of cause and effect.

Tibet is just on more piece in the Western geopolitical game aimed at encircling, dividing, and weakening their perceived most powerful opponent, China.

And, as already stated, since Gelugpas are the most powerful organization within Tibetan society, there is a need to either coopt them or to destroy them, which is the task assigned to the evil puppet dalie by his Western puppet masters.

Therefore, your misguided show of subservience to the amoral puppet not only will not yield any positive results, but will reinforce your deep seated accomplicity with crime and violence, the very source of your devotion to the evil dalie.

[Matibhadra]

As such I will continue to pray and implore the Dalai Lama and CTA to lift the ban and do whatever possible for it to happen.

Your refusal to denounce the criminal, coupled with your disgusting show of subservience to the gangster's authority, all while claiming to “pray” and “do whatever possible” so that he stops with his crimes, shows that your actual motivation is that of a dirty politician who wants to be accepted by both sides, the side of the criminals in power, and the side of the victims to whom you claim to belong.

Therefore, may inform you that, while trying to cheat yourself and others as you do, you belong to the side of the criminal perpetrators.

[Dondrup Shugden]

When we practise "an eye for an eye" in revenge, the whole world will go blind.

It is not about sides being taken but rather as a DS devotee, it is my personal wish to have the ban lifted in an amicable way along the tenets of Buddhism.

No offence to your arguments and points of view, but it would be good for you to consider mine in a light of acceptance.