Is blind faith Buddhistic ?

[KhedrubGyatso]

Faith is not the exclusive domain of religions other than Buddhism.
Vajrayana approach is to use the most efficacious methods for an individual or group to bring about results even if it means encouraging blind faith.

Is what we called blind faith useful?

We tend to associate blind faith with other religions. The practice of Guru Devotion to a certain extent depends on some level of blind faith. This seems to be a departure from popular and  traditional Buddhist norms which emphasize on valid reasoning  and logic.

[hope rainbow]

KG, you pose a very interesting question which challenges a posit of our modern society: that blind faith could not be constructive.
With the background of a scientific and pragmatic modern culture, faith is tolerated and blind faith has the aspect of a medieval thing that we finally got "rid of."

But doesn't any faith have have a level of "blindness" required for the so called "leap of faith?"
What is the difference between the two?
What differentiates faith and blind faith?

I'll share my thoughts on this here for sake of debate.

Faith is a mind that does not doubt the object of faith even when exposed to perceptions that seem to contradict the reasoning or justificative background to the faith.

Then what is blind faith?

[KhedrubGyatso]

We can classify three kinds of faith .

1. Believing faith
This is the kind we experience  as a kid who just believes in what his mother tells him without doing any kind of checking or investigation through this special relationship. It can also be  the kind of simple faith whereby we believe in something because most  of our friends are doing the same.We actually rely on this kind of faith the most in our daily lives whether it is shopping for something, learning  or seeking treatment.

 2.Admiring faith
This is a deeper kind of faith whereby we begin to develop  an interest in the object of our faith and   more aware of the qualities of the object which is  inspiring us. This faith arises through the process of  one's  verification  by observing, investigating  and contemplating   the object's qualities.
 
3.Wishing faith.
After investigation ,we develop the wish and determination to have those qualities in view of its benefits  to us and whatever other values we relate to. At this level, our faith is very strong and most doubts have been overcome , paving the way to enter into serious practice.
Through continued practice, we further  stabilise and enhance our faith  until it is unshakeable.

From the above, we can see that even at the first level of faith , it is not blind faith. The kid has basis for believing and trusting the mother without question due to the mother's love and care for him  which he can observe, positively experience and feel. It is the same for the second scenario, here the basis is the trust in numbers and in friends.

Therefore, I believe Buddhist methods, Vajrayana or otherwise will never encourage blind faith as expedient means. I think a common misconception is when the Guru tells us to follow his instructions without question. This injunction is actually not as ' dictatorial' as it seems because the student is supposed to have gone through a period of investigation of the qualities of the Guru , his lineage and his works and also checking his own thoughts and doubts before taking refuge in him. If we challenge a Guru whom we consider to be superior to us, then why have a Guru?
No real Guru will demand blind faith from anyone or give such an instruction if the essential samaya has not been established before hand by both Guru and disciple.

[Ensapa]

blind faith is putting faith into something without prior understanding or research. One just takes things as it is without investigation or logic at all. It is very different from the kind of faith one should have that the Buddha taught, where he explained that true faith comes from  understanding the qualities, benefits and results of something before faith is placed. And I find this very true. I am fortunate enough to have a Lama that explains everything so that my faith is stable, always. It gives me confidence to practice and to explain to others as i know for sure.

Its easy to test blind faith and true faith: one cannot explain when questioned, while the other can.

[hope rainbow]

Thank you KG.

So, we are saying here that Vajrayana does not require blind faith, but a grounded faith (wishing faith), that is established on logic and experience.

This logic (and knowledge) and experience must be stronger than the challenge that the faith is subjected to in order to further one on the path and establish even stronger foundation for this wishing faith.

If the ground for the faith is weak, it is more likely that the Guru will not challenge the student to an extend that should be necessary for the student to progress fast and swift.

This dynamic exposes why it is a fast path to have a Guru, but it also shows that it only work if one has a solid wishing faith. Otherwise the Guru will not be able to push the student.

Blind faith does not have ground, and when it is challenged, there is nothing to hold it and it weakens to a point of extinction.

Right?

[Ensapa]

Thank you KG.

So, we are saying here that Vajrayana does not require blind faith, but a grounded faith (wishing faith), that is established on logic and experience.

This logic (and knowledge) and experience must be stronger than the challenge that the faith is subjected to in order to further one on the path and establish even stronger foundation for this wishing faith.

If the ground for the faith is weak, it is more likely that the Guru will not challenge the student to an extend that should be necessary for the student to progress fast and swift.

This dynamic exposes why it is a fast path to have a Guru, but it also shows that it only work if one has a solid wishing faith. Otherwise the Guru will not be able to push the student.

Blind faith does not have ground, and when it is challenged, there is nothing to hold it and it weakens to a point of extinction.

Right?

exactly my point.

currently I have a friend who has blind faith in my own Guru. He is very sincere but he got very angry and emotional when i asked him why should we respect the Lama as a Buddha? what is the basis? and how should we treat a Buddha anyway? I got scolded by him saying that i have no faith in my Lama. Such is blind faith!!! mine is grounded entirely on my Lama's kindness and ability to help others as well as myself. I cannot help my friend much because he loves my Lama even tho my Lama did not do much to help him, and also because the man he is in love with loves my Lama as well, so he followed. The connection is very obvious and I have not much of an idea on how to wake him up as he gets very upset when challenged to think further in all Dharmic things.

So i just leave him alone, for now.

[KhedrubGyatso]

Dear HR,
Yes you got the point. But I would like to add that most of us tend to  start off at the first level , believing faith and gradually develop it into wishing  faith at which point , one is considered ready to take refuge in a Guru and the 3 jewels  and start one's spiritual journey.
Usually we can observe those who have not cultivated their faith to the 3rd level will not be so committed or serious in their practice. Hence we have of those who are casual or social Buddhists, who only pray at their altar and generating some good thoughts and doing their bit for Buddhist centres on and off. Moving ahead , there are those who are more serious to want some regular practice and become connected with a Dharma centre.  True practitioners who have taken authentic refuge are rare.

It is said that faith precedes every action . It does not arise spontaneously but has to be cultivated through experience, observation, contemplation and meditation.
Ensapa's  explanation of blind faith is good. If we contemplate deeper, I am not even sure if such type of faith is possible . At the most basic level of believing faith , a child's faith in his mother still depends on some experiencial basis. That is why  a child will react negatively by crying   if a stranger tries to hug him etc. The situation whereby a child goes along with a stranger is due to trickery employed  by the adult capitalising on the child's still low intelligence, and lack of experience . It is not the case of the child following the stranger  blindly.

[Big Uncle]

blind faith is putting faith into something without prior understanding or research. One just takes things as it is without investigation or logic at all. It is very different from the kind of faith one should have that the Buddha taught, where he explained that true faith comes from  understanding the qualities, benefits and results of something before faith is placed. And I find this very true. I am fortunate enough to have a Lama that explains everything so that my faith is stable, always. It gives me confidence to practice and to explain to others as i know for sure.

Its easy to test blind faith and true faith: one cannot explain when questioned, while the other can.

I think in the Gelug tradition, blind faith is discouraged because doubts is easy to take root for those who have blind faith. That's because those who have blind faith do not enough to have their faith grounded in logic, reasoning and understanding. Hence, they are easily swayed by doubts, fears and so forth. They can easily lose faith in their practice and Guru because of a little rumors they had heard. Hence, I believe that those who have blind faith are unable to develop attainments because of these factors.

[Ensapa]

I think in the Gelug tradition, blind faith is discouraged because doubts is easy to take root for those who have blind faith. That's because those who have blind faith do not enough to have their faith grounded in logic, reasoning and understanding. Hence, they are easily swayed by doubts, fears and so forth. They can easily lose faith in their practice and Guru because of a little rumors they had heard. Hence, I believe that those who have blind faith are unable to develop attainments because of these factors.

It is more like when you have blind faith and something comes along to challenge it, you will have a very hard time trying to prove yourself or hold the faith. Of course you can fight them off and get annoyed etc but that is obviously not a proper solution (like my friend). In his case, his first reaction is to shut down people who try to question him and his beliefs and insult them.

Personally after seeing this, I think blind faith is harmful because it promotes ignorance and since the person in blind faith cannot explain, this will cause more well learned and curious people to turn away from the blind faith followers' beliefs. This also goes directly against the Buddha's teaching to investigate before believing.

[vajrastorm]

I like what KG says about the three types of faith and i agree we should progress from 'believing faith' to 'wishing faith' and, at that point, grow a strong yearning to develop the qualities of the Buddha in us. This will propel us more surely towards the Vajrayana level of practice.   

Nonetheless, I have come across people who show a strong affinity to the Buddha immediately. To me, this is not an evidence of blind faith, but of 'seeds' having been implanted in a previous lifetime.

[Ensapa]

I like what KG says about the three types of faith and i agree we should progress from 'believing faith' to 'wishing faith' and, at that point, grow a strong yearning to develop the qualities of the Buddha in us. This will propel us more surely towards the Vajrayana level of practice.   

Nonetheless, I have come across people who show a strong affinity to the Buddha immediately. To me, this is not an evidence of blind faith, but of 'seeds' having been implanted in a previous lifetime.

i have seen people like these too and they strive to understand what is going on rather than just blindly believe in Buddhism. They like studying and investigating it, but does not avoid questions either. Affinity and blind faith are very different. One is done without basis, and the other is simply the inclination towards the Dharma. No connection/correlation there.

[Midakpa]

Blind faith is not encouraged in Buddhism. Buddhism encourages open-mindedness, study and knowledge. One  is required to study and understand the teachings before deciding whether to become a Buddhist or follow a certain guru.

A good example of open-mindedness in Buddhism is the story of Upali who was a follower of another religion but wanted to become the Buddha's disciple. The Buddha asked him, "Why do you want to become my follower?" Upali answered, "People say that your teachings are wonderful." Buddha then asked,"Have you heard any of my teachings?" Upali replied that he had not and the Buddha questioned him, "Then how do you know whether you can practise my teaching or not?" That is not the way for a man to change his religion. One must study and try to understand the teaching before one is convinced."

Then, Upali became even more determined to follow the Buddha and said, "Venerable Sir, I think this advice of yours is more than enough for me to understand the nature of your real teaching. If I had approached another religious leader, he would have announced that so and so has also become a follower of his religion. But instead Sir, you advised me to study and consider whether to accept your teaching or not." (K. Sri Dhammananda, Buddhist Principles for Human Dignity)

[valeriecheung]

Blind faith of course not encourage in buddhism but for some level of mind can be a beginning step to connect. For short terms is fine because not many poeple as clever as midakpa. 

[negra orquida]

Definitely blind faith is not the approach in Buddhism.  We are always encouraged to check out the Dharma centre, teachings, and even the Guru, as what is stated in the 50 Verses of Guru Devotion.  If we have only blind faith and no knowledge/wisdom to substantiate our faith or trust in the Buddhas, then our mind will easily waver when the logic for having faith in something is backed up against the wall.

[yontenjamyang]

I think blind faith is not Buddhistic. In Vajrayana especially, faith is called upon, when logic and reasoning cannot fully explain to us certain practices that we need to do or when we do contemplations/meditations. When we cannot proceed with logic, we need to have faith to propel our logic further ie to test our logic. If the result of the practice or contemplations proves that the assumption or faith made is correct then we add on to the logic. It is quite similar to science, where theories are posited ie faith based on pre proven logic.

Hence, blind faith is not Buddhistic, as in Buddhism, any faith is based on some logic to start with.

So logic brings faith brings more logic brings faith...until we can see ultimate reality!