The Yellow Book

[Zach]

I have a copy of the original Yellow Book and yes, the translator seems to have went out of his/her way to overemphasize/distort certain passages. Very unfortunate.

Well Tenpa-la your a resident of Zemey Ladrang perhapes it should be your task to help bring his collected works to light and make a better translation of the yellow book one that conveys an appopriate use of the english language.

[Lawrence L]

Hmm. Im new to Dorje Shugden and im wondered, what does the orginal story(not-distorded-version) tells? Did the Trijang Rinpoche said that there was punishment toward those lamas who practiced the other school of Tibetan Buddhism?

[Losang_Tenpa]

Hmm. Im new to Dorje Shugden and im wondered, what does the orginal story(not-distorded-version) tells? Did the Trijang Rinpoche said that there was punishment toward those lamas who practiced the other school of Tibetan Buddhism?

In reply, I will repost what I said earlier.

I am sure that the Yellow Book was never intended for general readership however; like many Tantric texts it must be understood in context.
Much like Shakyamuni when he declared "Kill your mother, kill your father", if we take that at face value we are in trouble. It is the underlining meaning of the words that must be tapped into. If all of the Tantras were picked apart and taken as literally as the Yellow Book has, there would be no end to the misunderstanding and confusion.



The Yellow Book is no different in this regard. It must first be determined if the text was meant figuratively for a speacial reason, or literally. There is a whole genre of teachings in the Gelug lineage (trang gne) that deal with how to tell if something said should be taken literally or figuratively.

[Lawrence L]

Im still looking forward for all of your answer.

what does the orginal story(not-distorded-version) tells? Did the Trijang Rinpoche said that there was punishment toward those lamas who practiced the other school of Tibetan Buddhism?

 

[Losang_Tenpa]

you are totally missing the point....

Many of the Tantras use very strange language about killing etc. Do we take that at face value? No. It is the same with the Yellow Book.

Yes, the book does describe the various calamities suffered by those who mixed Gelug teachings with other lineages. My point is that there was an intended meaning behind using this kind of language.

[DharmaSpace]

This is also from my memory I remembered a lama said to me, that there are protectors that if you have committed a particular misdeed they will actually destroy you and send your consciousness to a pure land. In that context, that protector is actually protecting you from committing further misdeeds. Like Buddha the ship captain when he was still a bodhistattva. They destroy you from their deep compassion as they probably know you have no way of reversing the effects of your mideed and you can only head to the lower realms, so best to send you to a pure land? 

Does anyone know of such a practise/protector? If I am seriously deluded please assist. thank you.   

[Ensapa]

This is also from my memory I remembered a lama said to me, that there are protectors that if you have committed a particular misdeed they will actually destroy you and send your consciousness to a pure land. In that context, that protector is actually protecting you from committing further misdeeds. Like Buddha the ship captain when he was still a bodhistattva. They destroy you from their deep compassion as they probably know you have no way of reversing the effects of your mideed and you can only head to the lower realms, so best to send you to a pure land? 

Does anyone know of such a practise/protector? If I am seriously deluded please assist. thank you.

I have heard that in some rare cases, the Dharma protector will end the life of practitioners that were sincere before but have gone wayward to prevent them from collecting or creating more negative karma. But to be honest, other than the account here in the yellow book I have never really read about it somewhere else. But like the rest of the stories in the yellow book, the story does sound weird because the protector said "no hope for you" and allowed the disease to worsen (which is, again, illogical because Buddhas or Dharmapalas never harm in this way). Perhaps the diseases was due to something else but again skewered to make it look as if it was the protector's fault.

But if Dorje Shugden does offer that, then I do sincerely pray that if in this life I am not able to practice Dharma correctly, or that I will waste it for other pursuits other than Dharma, that he would compassionately put me in another situation where it will be more conducive for practice.

[vajralight]

Quote from http://www.dharmaprotector.org/nyingma-gelug.html

Some people believe that if Gelugpa practitioners practice Nyingma teachings, Dorje Shugden will harm them, but this is completely wrong. We never believe this. Impossible. Besides Dorje Shugden, there are many Tibetan stories of other Dharmapalas killing people. There is even a lama called Ra Lotsawa who killed thirteen tantric masters including Tarma Dode, Marpa’s son. This is not just superstition. Many monasteries, maybe including Namgyal Dratsang (His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s private monastery), engage in the practice of Yamantaka that comes from Ra Lotsawa’s instructions. So shouldn’t they stop this practice because Lama Ra Lotsawa was a murderer? This would be meaningless. It is similar with Dorje Shugden, but there is no evidence of Dorje Shugden harming anyone. It is just superstition. For example, if a Gelugpa lama who practices Nyingma teachings has an accident, then some people think, “Oh, this is Dorje Shugden’s fault.” This is stupid. Then they write a book about these things, but this is not real evidence.

(Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, An Interview With Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Tricycle: the Buddhist Review, No. 27, Spring 1998, p. 76)

[Big Uncle]

Quote from http://www.dharmaprotector.org/nyingma-gelug.html

Some people believe that if Gelugpa practitioners practice Nyingma teachings, Dorje Shugden will harm them, but this is completely wrong. We never believe this. Impossible. Besides Dorje Shugden, there are many Tibetan stories of other Dharmapalas killing people. There is even a lama called Ra Lotsawa who killed thirteen tantric masters including Tarma Dode, Marpa’s son. This is not just superstition. Many monasteries, maybe including Namgyal Dratsang (His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s private monastery), engage in the practice of Yamantaka that comes from Ra Lotsawa’s instructions. So shouldn’t they stop this practice because Lama Ra Lotsawa was a murderer? This would be meaningless. It is similar with Dorje Shugden, but there is no evidence of Dorje Shugden harming anyone. It is just superstition. For example, if a Gelugpa lama who practices Nyingma teachings has an accident, then some people think, “Oh, this is Dorje Shugden’s fault.” This is stupid. Then they write a book about these things, but this is not real evidence.

(Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, An Interview With Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Tricycle: the Buddhist Review, No. 27, Spring 1998, p. 76)

Thank you Vajralight. That's a good explanation from Geshe Kelsang Gyatso regarding the Yellow Book. I agree with Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. I also would like to add that Dorje Shugden had to take the lives of many of these great Lamas and important people for an important reason.

His reason was of course to protect the Gaden tradition as they were in the position to pollute the tradition by mixing the lineages. He manifested such wrath because many of these Lamas were important lineage holders or people who were powerful example to the masses and they would cause great harm by mixing Nyingma and Gelug teachings. These Lamas may be able to practice them successfully but many of their followers with lesser merits will be confused if they do so. Hence, the lineage was in genuine danger and so Dorje Shugden made his move.

[Ensapa]

Quote from http://www.dharmaprotector.org/nyingma-gelug.html

Some people believe that if Gelugpa practitioners practice Nyingma teachings, Dorje Shugden will harm them, but this is completely wrong. We never believe this. Impossible. Besides Dorje Shugden, there are many Tibetan stories of other Dharmapalas killing people. There is even a lama called Ra Lotsawa who killed thirteen tantric masters including Tarma Dode, Marpa’s son. This is not just superstition. Many monasteries, maybe including Namgyal Dratsang (His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s private monastery), engage in the practice of Yamantaka that comes from Ra Lotsawa’s instructions. So shouldn’t they stop this practice because Lama Ra Lotsawa was a murderer? This would be meaningless. It is similar with Dorje Shugden, but there is no evidence of Dorje Shugden harming anyone. It is just superstition. For example, if a Gelugpa lama who practices Nyingma teachings has an accident, then some people think, “Oh, this is Dorje Shugden’s fault.” This is stupid. Then they write a book about these things, but this is not real evidence.

(Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, An Interview With Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Tricycle: the Buddhist Review, No. 27, Spring 1998, p. 76)

I really like the logic and reasoning re Ra Lotsawa. However, if the source of the yellow book happens to be Trijang Rinpoche, and they have proof that it is from him, how would that be refuted? By saying that no, Trijang Rinpoche did not contribute to the stories? Maybe someone could refute the yellow book and send it to HHDL or CTA.

Big Uncle's explanation is very logical as well. Protecting the lineage is of much importance, but it has to be explained that it was not Dorje Shugden that killed them, but rather the negative karma from passing down teachings that will not have effect killed them and stopped their activities.

[Big Uncle]

Big Uncle's explanation is very logical as well. Protecting the lineage is of much importance, but it has to be explained that it was not Dorje Shugden that killed them, but rather the negative karma from passing down teachings that will not have effect killed them and stopped their activities.

Ensapa, of course Dorje Shugden killed those Lamas and people. Don't be silly. Why would they put it in the Yellow book? Killing is inherently negative action but for beings like Ra Latsowa and Dorje Shugden, they did it out of great compassion. We wouldn't be able to receive Yamantaka or the pure lineage of Lama Tsongkhapa today if they didn't kill. He had to accept the negative repercussion for our sakes. Don't you get it?

In the past, all Tantras like Tara and so forth had rituals to kill negative opponents like Yamantaka. However, the great lineage masters that brought the Tantras over to Tibet was fearful that these rituals would be misused to collect even great negative karma and so many of these rituals became extinct. Nevertheless, one must have achieved Bodhichitta to performed such a wrathful ritual. The Indian lineage masters just wanted to be sure because Tibet was very barbaric in ancient times so they never passed down the lineage.

[Ensapa]

Ensapa, of course Dorje Shugden killed those Lamas and people. Don't be silly. Why would they put it in the Yellow book? Killing is inherently negative action but for beings like Ra Latsowa and Dorje Shugden, they did it out of great compassion. We wouldn't be able to receive Yamantaka or the pure lineage of Lama Tsongkhapa today if they didn't kill. He had to accept the negative repercussion for our sakes. Don't you get it?

In the past, all Tantras like Tara and so forth had rituals to kill negative opponents like Yamantaka. However, the great lineage masters that brought the Tantras over to Tibet was fearful that these rituals would be misused to collect even great negative karma and so many of these rituals became extinct. Nevertheless, one must have achieved Bodhichitta to performed such a wrathful ritual. The Indian lineage masters just wanted to be sure because Tibet was very barbaric in ancient times so they never passed down the lineage.

I see. now I understand a little bit more. To me, the yellow book is very interesting because its publication created a massive discord back then. It was as though it was translated to implicate something. But what you said did make sense. At least the reincarnation of the Panchen Lama came back even after what he did.

The explanation you gave was excellent, but it is more towards those of our lineage. However, how do we explain this to people of other traditions who have distorted views of Dorje Shugden after reading this book. Bear in mind, this is the book that literally started the ban and "hate" against Dorje Shugden....so if we can refute it, people will be able to look at it more objectively.

[Lawrence L]

Big Uncle's explanation is very logical as well. Protecting the lineage is of much importance, but it has to be explained that it was not Dorje Shugden that killed them, but rather the negative karma from passing down teachings that will not have effect killed them and stopped their activities.

Ensapa, of course Dorje Shugden killed those Lamas and people. Don't be silly. Why would they put it in the Yellow book? Killing is inherently negative action but for beings like Ra Latsowa and Dorje Shugden, they did it out of great compassion. We wouldn't be able to receive Yamantaka or the pure lineage of Lama Tsongkhapa today if they didn't kill. He had to accept the negative repercussion for our sakes. Don't you get it?

In the past, all Tantras like Tara and so forth had rituals to kill negative opponents like Yamantaka. However, the great lineage masters that brought the Tantras over to Tibet was fearful that these rituals would be misused to collect even great negative karma and so many of these rituals became extinct. Nevertheless, one must have achieved Bodhichitta to performed such a wrathful ritual. The Indian lineage masters just wanted to be sure because Tibet was very barbaric in ancient times so they never passed down the lineage.

Thank you Big Uncle. I started to understand and link the facts all together. We need to achieved Bodhichitta to understand why such that wrathful ritual was carried out. By this, i have a clear picture that how the stories inside the Yellow Book has been twisted around.

thank you for clarifying my doubt in my head.

[Big Uncle]

Ensapa, of course Dorje Shugden killed those Lamas and people. Don't be silly. Why would they put it in the Yellow book? Killing is inherently negative action but for beings like Ra Latsowa and Dorje Shugden, they did it out of great compassion. We wouldn't be able to receive Yamantaka or the pure lineage of Lama Tsongkhapa today if they didn't kill. He had to accept the negative repercussion for our sakes. Don't you get it?

In the past, all Tantras like Tara and so forth had rituals to kill negative opponents like Yamantaka. However, the great lineage masters that brought the Tantras over to Tibet was fearful that these rituals would be misused to collect even great negative karma and so many of these rituals became extinct. Nevertheless, one must have achieved Bodhichitta to performed such a wrathful ritual. The Indian lineage masters just wanted to be sure because Tibet was very barbaric in ancient times so they never passed down the lineage.

I see. now I understand a little bit more. To me, the yellow book is very interesting because its publication created a massive discord back then. It was as though it was translated to implicate something. But what you said did make sense. At least the reincarnation of the Panchen Lama came back even after what he did.

The explanation you gave was excellent, but it is more towards those of our lineage. However, how do we explain this to people of other traditions who have distorted views of Dorje Shugden after reading this book. Bear in mind, this is the book that literally started the ban and "hate" against Dorje Shugden....so if we can refute it, people will be able to look at it more objectively.

The explanation covers all traditions. If we have affinity and received teachings from a particular lineage / Guru, we should be faithful to it and not go around mixing our Gurus and traditions like our choice of clothes or the food that we eat. Hence, these tales are not specifically being biased against Nyingma but just an example because the Lamas and people at the time favor mixing Nyingma and Gelug Dharma very much. That's not very good for the tradition long term. This is as simple as it is. We don't try to complicate it too much.

[Ensapa]

The explanation covers all traditions. If we have affinity and received teachings from a particular lineage / Guru, we should be faithful to it and not go around mixing our Gurus and traditions like our choice of clothes or the food that we eat. Hence, these tales are not specifically being biased against Nyingma but just an example because the Lamas and people at the time favor mixing Nyingma and Gelug Dharma very much. That's not very good for the tradition long term. This is as simple as it is. We don't try to complicate it too much.

Linking that with what is happening today, where many people of today like to mix around the lineages and take what is convenient to them and say that they are not being sectarian when they use that as an excuse to hide their lack of stability and discipline. Actually, not all because kagyu and nyigma are interchangeable in terms of teachings, lineage lamas and the lineage in general. There are also cases where the lama does not care if the students run around to get teachings, and these students run around and tell everyone that their lama allows them to do that.

But I do agree it is very detrimental to the lineage as it implies that your own initial lineage is lacking something and not effective, therefore you need to run around and look for a "better" one.