Why not to hate the Dalai Lama for us

[Galen]

Ive not seen one photo of him so far in Shar Gaden only the picture of the previous Panchen Lama not the Dalai lama.

This is a picture taken of the altar at Trijang Ladrang in Shar Gaden. It has a picture of the young Dalai Lama on the top left corner. Also there are pictures of other lineage gurus.

[Zach]

This is in Trijang Ladrang I doubt the main hall would have any of him. 

[vajralight]

There seems to be a continuous campaign going on by pro-Dalai Lama Shugden supporters to brand those who are critical of the dalai lama as people who are filled with hate. The people I have met who were at the demonstrations all were insisting on the fact that they were all asked to have a compassionate motivation before and during the demonstrations and to not get angry. I have met quite a few people in the NKT and other Shugden traditions, I believe the vast majority of them, if not all, understand that anger is a root delusion and sincerely wish to be free from anger, but also believe that in some cases strong language must be used to be heard.

Whether others like this or not, or whether this approach is skillful or wields results or not , time will tell. But it is quite unfair to keep implying that those who criticize the dalai lama do so out of hate or anger.

Vajra

[Ensapa]

There seems to be a continuous campaign going on by pro-Dalai Lama Shugden supporters to brand those who are critical of the dalai lama as people who are filled with hate. The people I have met who were at the demonstrations all were insisting on the fact that they were all asked to have a compassionate motivation before and during the demonstrations and to not get angry. I have met quite a few people in the NKT and other Shugden traditions, I believe the vast majority of them, if not all, understand that anger is a root delusion and sincerely wish to be free from anger, but also believe that in some cases strong language must be used to be heard.

Whether others like this or not, or whether this approach is skillful or wields results or not , time will tell. But it is quite unfair to keep implying that those who criticize the dalai lama do so out of hate or anger.

Vajra

What I really dont understand is this: Dorje Shugden himself told all of his practitioners to respect the Dalai Lama during trance. And these people are going against the Dalai Lama, but pray to Shugden. Why pray to Shugden when you dont even follow his advice/vision/intention?

I totally do not understand.

[vajralight]

"Those people" follow the advice of their Spiritual Guide and not of an oracle who is not their Spiritual Guide.

Vajra

[Lineageholder]

What I really dont understand is this: Dorje Shugden himself told all of his practitioners to respect the Dalai Lama during trance.

Of course we should respect every living being, so Dorje Shugden's advice completely accords with lamrim, but where did Dorje Shugden say we should regard the Dalai Lama as Avalokiteshvara, as many Tibetan Buddhists seem to do?  Many high Lamas of the Gelugpa and Sakya traditions have said that Dorje Shugden is Avalokiteshvara - which reliable source is saying that the Dalai Lama is?

In reality, the idea that the Dalai Lama is Avalokiteshvara comes from the 5th Dalai Lama building the Potala Palace to further his own religious and political status.  People naturally assumed that if the Dalai Lama was living in the Potala palace, then he must be Avalokiteshvara.  This is all clearly explained in A Great Deception

Regardless of whether or not the Dalai Lama is a Buddha, if someone in a high position within a Buddhist tradition shows a bad example or gives spiritually damaging advice, or gives advice or shows and example not in keeping with the teachings, it's not wrong to point this out, especially when that example and actions have the potential to cause the degeneration of Buddha's teachings in this world.

[vajralight]

from http://dorjeshugdentruth.wordpress.com/

Many people regard the Dalai Lama as the living embodiment of Avalokiteshvara, the Buddha of Compassion, but as Geshe Kelsang Gyatso said in an interview in Tricycle magazine in 1998:


"If he is an incarnation of Avalokiteshvara why he is causing so many people suffering? Why is he causing the spiritual life of so many people to be destroyed? Now there is big confusion. Since His Holiness the Dalai Lama removed Shugden statues from Gelugpa monasteries and temples and claimed that Shugden is a worldly, harmful spirit, people throughout the Buddhist world have begun to have doubts about the general dharma of the Gelugpa tradition, and in particular the dharma of Je Pabongka and Trijang Rinpoche. Now you can see the belief pervading everywhere that these lamas and their tradition are invalid and impure. How can His Holiness the Dalai Lama do this, unless he thinks that the dharma taught by Trijang Rinpoche is not the real dharma? What he is doing now is putting great effort to destroy the Dharma taught by his own spiritual guide. This is a very horrible example, because every Buddhist practitioner believes that relying on the spiritual guide is the root of the path and the very essence of the practice. He is showing that the lama or spiritual guide doesn’t matter. How can Avalokiteshvara do this?"

[DSFriend]

Hate? Who's hating anyone in this forum? This is a hate-free forum which is what I love about.

People hate HHDL for many reasons...which have already been shared by other forum participants.

Guess what? The problem is not HHDL. When HHDL passes on (with no disrespect intended) these people will most probably have another target to vent their frustrations, anger, disappointments, hatred at. It never ends for people who have decided to go down this path. Forgive me if I am over generalizing. There's always exceptions and I will be very happy to be proven wrong.

[Ensapa]

"Those people" follow the advice of their Spiritual Guide and not of an oracle who is not their Spiritual Guide.

Vajra

That is so funny and ridiculous. How can you say I want to practice Dorje Shugden but dont want to carry out his instructions and will? The other question is, why would the spiritual guide not listen to the Dharmapala that he trusts? That is contradictory. Why would people want to do something like this? If they do this then what is the use of reciting Dorje Shugden's prayers on one hand, and using his name to justify rallies and demonstrations on the other?

If I really love my Dharma protector, i would find out all about him and the carry out his vision and goals, and definitely will not use his name to do negative things.

[vajralight]

The Spiritual Guide will always be more important for sincere Dharma practitioners than an oracle. Reliance on the Spiritual Guide is the root of the path, source of all Dharma realizations. Reliance on an oracle is not mentioned in the Lamrim as the root of the path.

Vajra

[vajralight]

PS I know many people who see their living Spiritual Guide as being the great king Dorje Shugden himself. So for them there is no need to look further for advice on their spiritual path etc..  For them there is no need (they don't feel the need) for oracles. If others want to rely on oracles, even to the point of putting the oracle above their Spiritual Guide that is their own free choice. But I just want to point out that there is no mention of reliance on oracles in the Lamrim and a lot of mention on reliance on the Guru. 


Vajra

[vajralight]

Ensapa, I don't call your views ridiculous. I thought it was the policy of this website to promote and value harmony, calling views that differ from your own ridiculous, is that in line with that policy ?

Even if we don't agree we can still be civilized about it and have the humility that in the end , only a Buddha will know exactly what is going on. When we become an enlightened being then we will know for sure what was happening in this DL-DS situation. Until then we can follow who we want, our Spiritual Guide, an oracle, the two.. 

And I feel it is maybe a bit unfair that you tell me that I or people who have a different view on the dalai lama as yours, do not want to follow the instructions and will of Dorje Shugden.

vajra

[Losang_Tenpa]

I agree.

I think it is healthy to have some mixed views on much of this. The group of people running this website all have the same views, and that is fine, but it is not the only view. Please allow for others to express their views without always trying to infer that those who do not have your view are ignorant or do not understand the Dharma.

 Thank you. You may find that if you allow for other views, we can all learn a bit more.

[Zach]

"Those people" follow the advice of their Spiritual Guide and not of an oracle who is not their Spiritual Guide.

Vajra

That is so funny and ridiculous. How can you say I want to practice Dorje Shugden but dont want to carry out his instructions and will? The other question is, why would the spiritual guide not listen to the Dharmapala that he trusts? That is contradictory. Why would people want to do something like this? If they do this then what is the use of reciting Dorje Shugden's prayers on one hand, and using his name to justify rallies and demonstrations on the other?

If I really love my Dharma protector, i would find out all about him and the carry out his vision and goals, and definitely will not use his name to do negative things.

As said practitoners rely primarily on the advise of their spiritual guide, If your centre and Guru doesnt reconmend reliance on Oracles as part of what you are instructed to practice then the only advise you are going to follow is that of your spiritual guide. Geshe Kelsang asked many of his students to go and voice concerns to the Dalai lama so they did just that, Specifically he said protesting against the Dalai lama is loving him and asking him to correct his mistakes rather then seeking to harm him, If we all sat around being pushed around by the wishes of HHDL and his admin respecting his advise then Dorje shugdens lineage would have already vanished by now.

[hope rainbow]

The ban is a pain.

The suffering and tears,
The split of families,
The split of monasteries,
The destruction of holy images,
The appartheid within the Tibetan community,
The monks abandoned by their students (!),
And even when blood is boiling over the issue on this very forum.
It all just feels like a big open wound that does not heal fast enough.

I hope it all serves the purpose of a major purification, sets up the mind and motivation of the Kadampa's, and gives them (us) the strength, courage, knowledge and HARMONY for the times ahead after His Holiness enters clear light.

On Guru devotion and oracles, I would say this:
It is unfortunate to say it, but there are some students that listen much more carefully to the oracle than to their Guru.
Is this correct? I can't think of any way this would be correct; but for some it is necessary to see the oracle so as to awaken them.
I have witnessed this myself.

Between traditions that do not rely on oracles and traditions that still rely on oracles, I don't think there is even a need to debate over them; because I agree with Vajra Light, the reliance on the Guru is more important than the reliance on an oracle. Not that the Guru is more important than the oracle, but the development and strengthening of the "reliance" on the Guru IS more important.

Having said this, I must also say that I have never seen the oracle contradicting my Guru neither.
The instructions from the great Dorje Shugden himself, or from the enlightened beings of His entourage do match with what my Guru has been teaching for many years already:

1. Not to loose faith in HHDL,
2. To work hard at creating the causes for the ban to be lifted,
3. The ban will dissipate if we stick to the above two points,
4. The practice of Dorje Shugden will grow further and main stream,
5. And it will help many, many, many people.

Thus, as far as I am concerned, I am accepting that I do not fully understand the actions of the Dalai Lama, and I believe that His Holiness knows better than me.
His Holiness is not my Guru, but I follow the instruction from my Guru to not imply anything negative over the Dalai Lama's actions.
Obviously my Guru also knows better, or else why would I have engaged in a Guru-disciple relationship with Him in the first place.

We do not all share the same Guru on this forum, and there may be Kadampa's here that receive different instructions.
I am not trying to compare what one Guru says and what the other say and find contradictions, then conclude this or that. No.
The instructions given by a Guru (that I am not engaged with) to his students are not meant for me, they are not even meant for me to contemplate upon, for I may simply not have the tools even to start doing that.

Yet, when we all follow our Guru's instruction with intelligence and discernement, when we get together as Shugdenpa's, eventually, we will find that there is no need to argue.