Author Topic: Why not to hate the Dalai Lama for us  (Read 31641 times)

VS

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 73
Re: Why not to hate the Dalai Lama for us
« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2012, 03:40:24 PM »
Thank you Hope Rainbow on your post, I totally agree with you.

I'm grateful towards HHDL for taking on all the 'blame' for imposing the ban on Dorje Shugden practise, for without this, i would not have gotten to know Dorje Shugden and its practice.

It is due to the kindness of HHDL that Dorje Shugden practitioners have grown worldwide.

I've also read that 'despite both HHDL and Dorje Shugden may seem to be on on odd ends, they are actually working hand in hand to bring Dharma to the masses'. Would DS practice have gained so much publicity if not for the ban?? Think again!

Never once has Dorje Shugden asked anyone to hate or disrespect HHDL and He knows and can see what all of us can't. So who are we to hate HHDL?? To me, it doesn't make sense.

Positive Change

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1008
Re: Why not to hate the Dalai Lama for us
« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2012, 04:02:31 PM »
Dear HR,

What you have posted here is absolutely brilliant. I could not have penned it any clearer or concise. I am in total agreement.

Sometimes we need to concentrate and just look at what is in front of us, and not look beyond as it is often unclear. I trust what my guru says and never has he ever told me to disrespect HHDL in anyway. Whatever any other person says is literally beyond my comprehension or judgement.

I fold my hand and thank HHDL for "taking the wrap" for the bigger picture. That is how I see it! :P

diamond girl

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 282
Re: Why not to hate the Dalai Lama for us
« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2012, 07:34:22 PM »
Hate is not an emotion anyone should harbor, whether Buddhist or any other faith.

Many have "hate" towards HHDL on this Ban issue because of the sufferings seen since the ban. However, if we are to be true to ourselves and agree that hatred is a destructive emotion to have, then we should not harbor such. Consequently, when we debate on this topic we should also not express in ways that indicate personal "attacks".

This website, although to some seems one-sided, we do welcome other opinions. And in the exchange of different views we should have the conversation respectful at all times. This would be in line with the policy of this website.

More importantly this website, which with time has become the website of most information on this subject, has benefitted many. The subject matter of the Ban is rich with information here. People can read, learn and make their own opinions and decisions. No matter what views we have, we should at all times express in gentle and respectful ways.

Personally have I not had "hate" towards the Dalai Lama? Yes, I must confess. But reading this website has brought me to a balance view. At the end of it all, the Ban must be lifted and all of us on this Forum and website can play a part. One of us cannot, but all of us together can create an impact which will contribute greatly to this Ban being lifted...and I pray soon. We cannot let anymore people suffer.

Ensapa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4124
    • Email
Re: Why not to hate the Dalai Lama for us
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2012, 07:26:32 AM »
As said practitoners rely primarily on the advise of their spiritual guide, If your centre and Guru doesnt reconmend reliance on Oracles as part of what you are instructed to practice then the only advise you are going to follow is that of your spiritual guide. Geshe Kelsang asked many of his students to go and voice concerns to the Dalai lama so they did just that, Specifically he said protesting against the Dalai lama is loving him and asking him to correct his mistakes rather then seeking to harm him, If we all sat around being pushed around by the wishes of HHDL and his admin respecting his advise then Dorje shugdens lineage would have already vanished by now.

Ah I see. I did not know about that part of the story. So the protests were done out of compassion  to bring it to HHDL's attention. I did forgot about the Guru part, that the Guru will always override the protector. But to me, the campaigns do sound a little bit too aggressive to their cause. I guess there is always two sides of a story. we all learn something new each day. So in a way, they are also trying to work to lift the ban but in a more aggressive method i guess.

Zach

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 566
Re: Why not to hate the Dalai Lama for us
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2012, 09:15:05 AM »
As said practitoners rely primarily on the advise of their spiritual guide, If your centre and Guru doesnt reconmend reliance on Oracles as part of what you are instructed to practice then the only advise you are going to follow is that of your spiritual guide. Geshe Kelsang asked many of his students to go and voice concerns to the Dalai lama so they did just that, Specifically he said protesting against the Dalai lama is loving him and asking him to correct his mistakes rather then seeking to harm him, If we all sat around being pushed around by the wishes of HHDL and his admin respecting his advise then Dorje shugdens lineage would have already vanished by now.

Ah I see. I did not know about that part of the story. So the protests were done out of compassion  to bring it to HHDL's attention. I did forgot about the Guru part, that the Guru will always override the protector. But to me, the campaigns do sound a little bit too aggressive to their cause. I guess there is always two sides of a story. we all learn something new each day. So in a way, they are also trying to work to lift the ban but in a more aggressive method i guess.

There are always two sides to a campaign Direct and Indirect action, The example of womens sufrage at the begining of the 20th century caused more attention through using two methods they are a means to an end.

vajrastorm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 706
Re: Why not to hate the Dalai Lama for us
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2012, 09:53:13 AM »
Yes, there are always different views to any one issue. Still, I feel we should make better use of this forum to create causes for the ban to be lifted soonest, so that the sufferings of all the victims of the ban will be ended and Dorje Shugden will arise and claim his role as THE  Dharma Protector  of this degenerate age.

We should all be well versed in the history of how Dorje Shugden arose as the enlightened Protector to protect and spread Je Tsongkapa's teachings , in the undeniable proof and evidence that he is an Enlightened Dharma Protector  - a Buddha), and in what Trijang Rinpoche wrote about Dorje Shugden in 'Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors'. i also think that Shugden practitioners should be well-informed and learned  about Je Tsongkapa's teachings which Dorje Shugden arose to protect. The Jewel of Tsongkapa's teachings is his Lamrim Chenmo. This great masterpiece  which contains the 84000 teachings of Lord Buddha in the form of the Graded Path to Enlightenment(actually a commentary on the seminal work of Atisha - Lamp of the Path to Enlightenment) has all of the Sutra and the Tantra teachings of Lord Buddha. The great Pabongka Rinpoche has brought us the Lamrim in the form that is most appropriate for our times in his 'Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand'.   

Only when we are equipped with knowledge can we then help spread the Dharma of Je Tsongkapa and the practice of Dorje Shugden  and thus create  causes for the ban to be lifted soon. 

Ensapa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4124
    • Email
Re: Why not to hate the Dalai Lama for us
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2012, 09:53:56 AM »
I believe that when people are educated enough about DS and what he really is, they can easily decide for themselves what is right and what is wrong, and why does the ban not make sense in the first place.

I feel that other lineages should know about why DS should not be banned as well, that DS will not harm them because DS is a Buddha, that there is no basis on the myth that DS harms his practitioners or those who will come in contact with DS. Other lineages like the nyigmas especially are very fearful of DS and they need to know there is nothing to be afraid of, unless they have not been sincere in their practice, but even then they have their own protectors and vows as well, so there is no reason at all to be against DS in the first place.

hope rainbow

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 947
Re: Why not to hate the Dalai Lama for us
« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2012, 10:32:54 AM »
There are always two sides to a campaign Direct and Indirect action.
The example of womens sufrage at the begining of the 20th century caused more attention through using two methods they are a means to an end.

Indeed.

beggar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 861
Re: Why not to hate the Dalai Lama for us
« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2012, 05:37:44 PM »
Yes, I do agree that Guru devotion is of the utmost important. However, within the practice of Guru devotion, I am sure that no real Guru would encourage his disciples to speak badly about another Lama or engage in actions regarding another Lama that would confuse or hurt his students.

I understand your point that people protesting against the Dalai Lama are not filled with hate, but you should also consider that those actions and the things that are said against the Dalai Lama (e.g. calling him a liar right outside his teachings) can create a lot of confusion and hurt in his students. Do we want to create any of those kinds of feelings between any student and his teacher? Sure, there are many students of the Dalai Lama who are not good practitioners, but there are also many who ARE sincere, and we risk creating confusion or hurt in them. Is that our intention?

It is not to say that we keep quiet and don't talk about it at all. Yes, we can point out what is not right, but present it in a logical manner, with debate, information, knowledge and simultaneously present the benefits and good points of Dorje Shugden to balance the argument, so that it is not just all about what Dalai Lama is doing wrong. Sometimes we can prove someone is "wrong" by proving why the other side is correct and good. It doesn't always just have to be about protesting against the Dalai Lama and pointing out all the things that are wrong about him.

I have had the privilege to meet some monks in monasteries throughout India, including monks in Trijang Ladrang. They speak often about how they do not have any bad feelings towards the Dalai Lama, but are just saddened by the and simply do not understand why he is doing this. For many, many of these monks, Lamas are their Gurus AND the Dalai Lama is also their Guru. It is not so straightforward for them to just "point out" what the Dalai Lama is doing wrong because, as in the teachings of Guru Devotion, we do not disparage or denounce our teacher, his teachings or his actions. Do you think it would be encouraging or helpful for them to further hear other students (supposedly from the same "side" as them) who are publically demonstrating against the Dalai Lama, openly calling him a liar and saying repeatedly how "wrong" he is? How does it give hope, strength or encouragements to these monks when the Dalai Lama is also their Guru who they hold very very highly in their own practices?

Further, it is important to first even consider what makes us qualified to be able to point out what one Lama is doing wrong. What basis do we have? Have we even studied as long as these Lamas? taking vows? Held them for as long as these Lamas? Why should people listen to our analysis, observations and criticisms about a Lama's actions? I am not being sarcastic or belligerent - I sincerely request everyone to think twice about what it is that makes us qualified to criticise or comment on the actions of someone who is higher than us. Even if it is not by spiritual attainments (which we cannot perceive yet at our level), then even by secular standards - i.e. these Lamas are recognised by other highly recognised and respected Lamas as incarnations and/or attained beings; they are teachers to thousands more than we are; they have devoted their lives to work and practice in a field for far longer than we have.

Once we begin to question one Lama, then we can start questioning the actions of all other Lamas. If the Dalai Lama is "wrong" because of this and this and this, then Karmapa is also wrong for having so much money, Kalu Rinpoche is also wrong for his supposed substance abuse, Gangchen Rinpoche is wrong for having a beard, this and that Lama is wrong for having a female assistant etc. Then, where does it stop?

Share information about the situation, yes. Present arguments by logic and by Dharma. Present the other side of the story - which is to educate people about the true nature of Dorje Shugden and his practice. Respect others enough by giving them as much information and education as we can to allow them to make the informed decision for themselves as to whether the Dalai Lama is all that people have been accusing him, directly or indirectly, with or without strong language. Simply using strong language and all that - whatever our motivation, and I'm sure that for many, it is with a pure and heartfelt motivation - can have the effect of creating even further confusion, distance and hurt in fellow Dharma practitioners who see the Dalai Lama as their Guru and still respect and love him greatly. Whether we agree with them or not, we should be aware of how our actions can have this adverse effect.

beggar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 861
Re: Why not to hate the Dalai Lama for us
« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2012, 05:51:23 PM »
"Those people" follow the advice of their Spiritual Guide and not of an oracle who is not their Spiritual Guide.

Vajra

That is so funny and ridiculous.

Ensapa (and all): a reminder to please respect others' views and opinions on the forums. It is fine if you don't agree with everyone, but please do not make personal judgements, pass personal comments about their posts or resort to sarcasms like this.

Thank you. 

vajralight

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 147
Re: Why not to hate the Dalai Lama for us
« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2012, 02:44:02 AM »
Yes, I do agree that Guru devotion is of the utmost important. However, within the practice of Guru devotion, I am sure that no real Guru would encourage his disciples to speak badly about another Lama or engage in actions regarding another Lama that would confuse or hurt his students.

I understand your point that people protesting against the Dalai Lama are not filled with hate, but you should also consider that those actions and the things that are said against the Dalai Lama (e.g. calling him a liar right outside his teachings) can create a lot of confusion and hurt in his students. Do we want to create any of those kinds of feelings between any student and his teacher? Sure, there are many students of the Dalai Lama who are not good practitioners, but there are also many who ARE sincere, and we risk creating confusion or hurt in them. Is that our intention?


No it was/is NOT our intention, as you would know if you had clearly read the post where Geshe-la explained his reasons to openly voice our concerns on the DL's stance on the Dorje Shugden issue.  (Unless you choose not to believe this) And you are free to feel or believe that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is not a real Guru as you just pointed out, but then again would this also not go against the policies of this website ?? It is becoming clear to me that those who follow this big picture idea can speak freely and criticize other Lama's but those who doubt the DL may not do so.

PS Personally I don't really mind what people think, everyone is free to think what they want, it's just the inconsistencies on the whole harmony policy that I find odd.

hope rainbow

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 947
Re: Why not to hate the Dalai Lama for us
« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2012, 04:33:15 AM »
No it was/is NOT our intention, as you would know if you had clearly read the post where Geshe-la explained his reasons to openly voice our concerns on the DL's stance on the Dorje Shugden issue.  (Unless you choose not to believe this) And you are free to feel or believe that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is not a real Guru as you just pointed out, but then again would this also not go against the policies of this website ?? It is becoming clear to me that those who follow this big picture idea can speak freely and criticize other Lama's but those who doubt the DL may not do so.

PS Personally I don't really mind what people think, everyone is free to think what they want, it's just the inconsistencies on the whole harmony policy that I find odd.

Sometimes our actions have some effects that we did not intend for them to have.
I consider Geshe Kelsang Gyatso as a great lama, and the Dalai Lama also.
My own Guru has great reverence for both, and that means something to me.

Eventually, the reality is not as simple as one side pro-Shugden, the other anti-Shugden or one side pro-Dalai Lama and the other anti-Dalai Lama, or to complicate the matter, on side pro-Shugden but anti-Dalai Lama and the other pro-Shugden but also pro-Dalai Lama...
(where does this end?)

When some do resort to very direct methods, such as demonstrating in the streets with slogans asking the Dalai Lama to stop lying, then they should also take reponsibility to clarify with the same strength that the intentions are not to put down the Dalai Lama, but to voice concern and expose the truth about the ban and about Dorje Shugden.

We can't throw a bolster in the mud to attract attention and then not use the attention we have to go all the way.
By all the way I mean to make it clear that it is not a campaign against the Dalai Lama, but a campaign to correct the perception created in the minds of many as to who Dorje Shugden is and as to what his intentions are, a campaign that is requesting for the Dalai Lama to lift the ban. A campaign that has for objectif to create harmony and is done with respect towards the Sangha (thus including His Holiness), not diffamation.

The point of the demonstration, I believe, was not to put the Dalai Lama down.
Yet, there are many who come across images of the demonstrations and who do not understand that, and some will develop doubts, doubts in the Dalai Lama, doubt in monkhood also, even doubts in Buddhism.
This needs, I think, to be corrected; and, I think, it would be much better if it was corrected by those that created the mis-conception.

I say this with deep respect for the great lamas, with deep respect for Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and deep respect for His Holiness also. I have a Guru too, and one thing I have learned, is that there is more than meet the eyes when we receive instructions from our Guru.

I'll be very blunt here, but I think it is too easy to throw the bolster in the mud and then use Guru devotion to justify our act. If our Guru has asked us to throw the bolster in the mud in the first place, maybe there was more to His intention, and how we deal with the created situation afterwards may very well be the real practice, not the throwing itself.

This is not a critic to Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, no, I would not dare to even let my mind think anything ill about Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, not to mention my speech.
And I do not believe that the post by Beggar was directed at Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.

So, yes, there can be different methods, some appearing more peaceful than others, but let's take responsibility for the consequences of our actions. I think this is a real Dharma practice.

I also think we should remember that patience is a virtue and also not forget that the result we want to achive is not to put Lamas down or create doubts in people's minds, but restore and propitiate Nagarjuna's view. Let's not get distracted.

Losang_Tenpa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 691
    • Email
Re: Why not to hate the Dalai Lama for us
« Reply #42 on: January 19, 2012, 04:41:54 AM »
Quote
Further, it is important to first even consider what makes us qualified to be able to point out what one Lama is doing wrong. What basis do we have? Have we even studied as long as these Lamas? taking vows? Held them for as long as these Lamas? Why should people listen to our analysis, observations and criticisms about a Lama's actions? I am not being sarcastic or belligerent - I sincerely request everyone to think twice about what it is that makes us qualified to criticise or comment on the actions of someone who is higher than us.

I am not qualified, but many of the Lamas that I have faith in have said directly that the actions of the Dalai Lama are wrong. Many Lamas also have protested. I have many pictures of the protests here in India that occured before the protests in the West.


hope rainbow

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 947
Re: Why not to hate the Dalai Lama for us
« Reply #43 on: January 19, 2012, 04:50:38 AM »
I am not qualified, but many of the Lamas that I have faith in have said directly that the actions of the Dalai Lama are wrong. Many Lamas also have protested. I have many pictures of the protests here in India that occured before the protests in the West.

And I praise the selflessness of the Dalai Lama to take this upon himself.
My words are written with wet eyes.

Losang_Tenpa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 691
    • Email
Re: Why not to hate the Dalai Lama for us
« Reply #44 on: January 19, 2012, 04:57:06 AM »
I am not qualified, but many of the Lamas that I have faith in have said directly that the actions of the Dalai Lama are wrong. Many Lamas also have protested. I have many pictures of the protests here in India that occured before the protests in the West.

And I praise the selflessness of the Dalai Lama to take this upon himself.
My words are written with wet eyes.

And I praise the selflessness of the brave monks who took all of the abuse upon themselves in order to send the Dalai Lama a message that his actions were harming people.

These monks derserve my respect first and foremost.

That being said, I have never heard a Lama or monk say they 'hate' the Dalai Lama. I have never even heard the slight trace of anger in their voice when talking about the Dalai Lama....but I have heard some say that his actions are wrong.