The 6 Realms

[Vajraprotector]

I have heard a comment from a friend who studied zen that the 6 realms are not to be taken in its literal context but should be interpreted in a figurative manner. 

Baizhang Huaihai, a Chinese Zen master said during the Tang Dynasty: 

Q: Does hell exist or not?
A: One can say that there really is a hell, and one can also say that there really is no hell.

Q: What reason is there to say that hell both exists and does not exist?
A: All evil karma is created by the mind, and, thus, hell may be held to exist. However, if the mind is without defilement and void of self-nature, then hell may be held not to exist.

What do you think? Do you think it is easier for modern people to believe that there are the 6 realms, or easier for them to relate that to a mental state?

[WisdomBeing]

Yes, i have heard that theory before - not Buddhist though - that there really is no heaven or hell.. and it's all metaphorical. I'm pretty much in two minds about it. If there is no hell, why do the Masters say they have visited hell and even describe all the awful things that happen to us there. The Lamrim is very descriptive! Is it just a threat so that we behave ourselves? Or is it truth? What is truth anyway. I guess we won't know until we gain enlightenment and then we can really know what is truth and reality. If we can get enlightened, we don't have to worry about hell anyway, except saving others from it. In the meantime, i am trying not to get into a boiling pot of oil in my next life.. sheesh.

[KhedrubGyatso]

The zen master is correct, showing his mastery of Nagarjuna's middle way philosophy which basically asserts that things neither exist nor non exist. What this means is that we can't say that something is real absolutely. Neither can we say they are not real absolutely. It all depends on our karma and hence ultimately our mind.
If someone is trapped in a house on fire and cannot get out, wouldn't that be like the burning hell described in the lamrim for the person?
Prisoners subjected to torture when rescued will swear they went through hell and back.
For these people, hell is real and can be experienced within those environment or situation.
The basis for having such experiences is of course due to their negative karma ripening. Hence if we have purified them, we will not have such experiences just like poison which gives us nausea n pain is a delightful eating experience  to a peacock.

[yontenjamyang]

That is to say it exist because of our mind, our karma.

In the Lamrim it say this hell is this number of yojanas (5 to 8 miles) below this place and that hell is these number of yojanas below that place. Take it that way it means it literally exists. It will be interesting if someone dig 100 miles into the earth at the right place and see if hell exist.
The easiest way to prove hell exist is by conjecture and that is since the 6 realms include humans and animals realms and since these realms exist then the other realms must exist.
It is clear that all the 6 realms itself also exist in the human realms in sort of a sub realms. We have "gods" - royalty, the rich and powerful, demi gods - those above average who are jealous of the "gods", humans - who have the 3 poisons, , animals - human who have strong lust for food and sex, hungry ghost - humans who have great attachment and are never satisfied, and hell being - humans who have strong anger. Then mix this all up and we can have all 6 realms in a single person.

So to me it does not matter if hell exist physically. Most important is that it exist in our mind. And upon our death, if our mind have anger, then we remain in that "hell" for a very long time.

[Big Uncle]

The 6 realms do exist and it exists based upon our own actions and motivations. Each moment we are angry, we create another cause towards the realisation of taking rebirth in hellish places or hell itself. However, hell is not a place that exist to punish us for our misdeeds or anger. It is the repercussions of our actions that make hell exist. In other words, hell or any of the other states exists based upon whether we choose to let the specific delusion run our lives or not. It is all in our hands.

According to the Buddhist tradition, the ideal realm to take rebirth is not in the powerful realm of the demi-gods or gods but the human realm because gross pleasure and sufferings are in fairly equal measure that would make it ideal for spiritual awakening. There is more to it than just taking rebirth as a human of course. Hence, we collect merit to always have the state of mind that is sensitive to the truth of Dharma and to have all the physical conditions necessary to practice.

[hope rainbow]

I have heard a comment from a friend who studied zen that the 6 realms are not to be taken in its literal context but should be interpreted in a figurative manner. 

Baizhang Huaihai, a Chinese Zen master said during the Tang Dynasty: 

Q: Does hell exist or not?
A: One can say that there really is a hell, and one can also say that there really is no hell.

Q: What reason is there to say that hell both exists and does not exist?
A: All evil karma is created by the mind, and, thus, hell may be held to exist. However, if the mind is without defilement and void of self-nature, then hell may be held not to exist.

What do you think? Do you think it is easier for modern people to believe that there are the 6 realms, or easier for them to relate that to a mental state?

I do like the reply from Khedrup Gyatso very much, it is clear and I stand by it.

I would like to add this:

"6" REALMS?
I say there are more than 6 realms, there are as many realms as there are sentient beings.
These realms can be categorized conceptually within the 6 realms and their subdivisions.

VISA TO A REALM "PLACE"
Realms are not "places" that we go to like we travel from one country to another, and there is a part of simplification in their description. Not to say that the description is not accurate, not at all, but it is made to make a very complex reality understandable.
Yet it would be foolish to start a bias thinking validating the thought: "oh, hell does not exist, it is only in our mind".
If it is a projection of our mind, well... it does exist!
But as it is a projection of  my mind, it may cease to exist when I get rid of the causes for me to project such a horrible experience.
Example: We can be in the same place and have categorically opposed experiences. Such as: I experience chili as something relevant to pain, and someone else as something relevant to pleasure; or,  I experience stilettos as something relevant to pain, and someone else as something relevant to pleasure. (see image below)

[negra orquida]

Q: What reason is there to say that hell both exists and does not exist?
A: All evil karma is created by the mind, and, thus, hell may be held to exist. However, if the mind is without defilement and void of self-nature, then hell may be held not to exist.

Does this mean that, whether hell exists or not is relative to the person and his karma. E.g. if the person does not have the karma to experience hell, then does hell exist to the person?

[Midakpa]

If we think of samsara as an illusion or a dream, it's easier to visualise the existence of the six realms. When we dream, it is so real. But when we wake up, we realise it's just a dream. As long as we do not wake up from samsara (i.e. become enlightened), we will go on "dreaming". To those of us in samsara, our experiences are very real unless we have the dharma which teach us the truth.

I have read of people called "Delog" whose consciousness can journey to other realms of experience. One such person was Dawa Drolma, a woman renowned as a Delog, who journeyed with White Tara to the pure realms of Padmasambhava, Avalokiteshvara and Tara as well as the six impure realms of Being and later described the contrast between existence in these realms.  In the hell realms she saw beings she knew in the past. She recounted scenes in the hell realm of bodhisattvas, lamas and nuns who actually came to take their followers out. For example, in one scene, a lama named Yengmed Dorje from Nyagrong, came bearing a prayer wheel and a mala with a group of five of his students. He intoned a prayer and chanted "Om mani padme hung hri" and led about a thousand beings out of the eighteen states of hell along a pathway of white light. These were beings who had a positive or negative connection to him.

Another story I heard recently was about the Master Hsuan Hua who travelled to the hell realm to rescue two students who accidentally got trapped there while meditating.

So, are the six realms real or imagined? Samsara and Nirvana are like the two sides of a coin. Physically, you may be in Samsara, but your mind can be in Nirvana.

[hope rainbow]

Q: What reason is there to say that hell both exists and does not exist?
A: All evil karma is created by the mind, and, thus, hell may be held to exist. However, if the mind is without defilement and void of self-nature, then hell may be held not to exist.

Does this mean that, whether hell exists or not is relative to the person and his karma. E.g. if the person does not have the karma to experience hell, then does hell exist to the person?

You and I can eat the same cake.
You enjoy it and it lifts your mind up for a while.
But I am allergic to peanuts, and as there was peanuts in the cake I die there painfully.
We ate the same thing, yet our experiences were opposite.

If my karma was much worse, I might not even be near you and end up in a place where suffering is constant, without relief, excruciating, feeling like it'd never end!
This would be hell, and it comes from me, not AT me, because it comes from my karma.
Therefore it is not a place that "I" end up "into", it is a place I create alone or with the collective karma of others and that I am part of.

If I have no karma to experience hell, then I won't experience it and it won't exist for me, yet it does exist for others.

Now, food for thoughts:
"Hell" can also be a rebirth in a powerful, healthy, handsome, spoiling and wealthy family too.
So do realize the practitioners of the medium scope.

Maybe "hell" is not a place, maybe it is samsara all-together!

[dondrup]

All sentient beings have accumulated countless positive and negative karma.  When the right causes and conditions gather, these karmas will ripen into the experience that sentient beings encounter moment to moment in samsara.  The realm of existence that sentient beings are born into is part of this experience that had manifested.  These realms of existence are mental states not an actual physical place.  Due to the obscuration of their minds, sentient beings are deceived into believing that their realm of existence is real and permanent!  In actual fact, samsara is like an illusion or a dream like what Midakpa had said. When sentient beings have completely purified their karmas and free their minds of delusions, they become fully enlightened.  And then these 6 realms of existence will cease to exist.  The 6 realms cease to exist because the causes and conditions that had gathered previously for their existence had ceased to exist.

[hope rainbow]

These realms of existence are mental states not an actual physical place.

Realms are actual physical spaces also (except the formless realm), even if they depend upon the projections from the energies of our karmas.

They are real physical places that are inseparable with those experiencing them.

If I have any doubt that my realm is an actual physical space, I just need to prick my finger with a needle to experience the physical reality of my realm... Ayooohhh 

So a realm experienced by a sentient being is both a "projection" and a "reality".
It is both, and neither one nor two (ONE as opposed to TWO -the place and the "experiencer" seen as separated).

[Positive Change]

This is indeed very interesting read. I agree with all points shared here and I believe it is not a question of who is right or who is wrong. I believe both train of thoughts are correct. In that, "hell" could be perceived as that within someone's life who runs almost paralleled with another. In that scenario, hell exist for one but not the other. Who is to say either is wrong?

It depends largely or wholly I should say, on someone's karma. Everything derives from a person's karma anyways, so why not the existence of such "intangible" states for some and "tangible" for others.

Hence to end, Hell DOES exist and Hell also DOES NOT exist. It is whether we choose to make it exist or not!

[Klein]

"What do you think? Do you think it is easier for modern people to believe that there are the 6 realms, or easier for them to relate that to a mental state?"

I believe that either way of thinking is fine as long as it motivates them to practise the dharma or in other words, transform their mind towards compassion. For example, some people don't believe that spirits exist because they have never seen them or experienced them. Some people believe that spirits exist and the knowledge doesn't help them become better people in anyway.

Because of our self deluded minds, we don't do much with our knowledge unless we see the importance or need to do something with it. Otherwise, it just becomes a matter of intellectual discussion.

[vajrastorm]

I agree with Klein that, whether we see the six realms as really existing or as just states of mind, what matters is how it motivates us to practice the Dharma and transform. I, for one, find the Hell Realm and the Hungry Ghost Realm, as are  presented in the Lamrim, so very powerful in making me immediately fear these realms with such a deadlyf ear as to prompt me to want to do something about myself immediately! Yes, I believe meditating on the sufferings of the lower realms as they are presented in the Lamrim is the best way of motivating one towards serious Dharma practice.

[RedLantern]

It is translated as the"six states of samsara"The six realms are God realm,Demi God realm,human realm,animal realm,hungry ghost realm and hell.
The six realms are an allegrorical description of conditional existence or samsara,into which beings are reborn.
The nature of one'sexistence is determined by karma.Certainly some realms seems more desirable than others.Heaven sounds preferable to hell,but all are dukkha meaning they are temporary and imperfect.