Bad Karma Surrounding DS

[michaela]

Dear forum participants,

With regard to Dorje Shugden, there are several things not really clear to me:

-  Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen Murder - The circumstances surrounding Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen becoming a protector.  Nechung helped to create circumstances around Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen so that he could generate wrath.  That involved several Dalai Lama attendants committing an extraordinary bad karma to kill him, a holy being.  Why Nechung created the circumstances where several people needed to commit extraordinary bad karma so that Dorje Shugden could manifest?

-  The ban by Dalai Lama - why an enlightened being like Dalai Lama also seemed to support bad karma creation a bad karma by severing students' samaya with their gurus by unswearing a swear to DS  and creation of bad karma by the Tibetan government for enforcing this ban by depriving DS practitioners of whatever they used to enjoy and creating confusion in their mind.

I have been thinking about this matter for sometime, and my conclusion right now are as follows:

I remember my experiences when engaging in prostration retreat.  All the bad emotion that I thought have been kept hidden under control are magnified to the point I thought I could not handle it any longer before it being completely purged.  Sometimes, I just needed to be physically still in order not to hurt anyone.  That was of course in addition to numerous minor physical accidents that I experienced. 

So I think what happened were:

-  Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen Murder - when Nechung was creating the circumstances for Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen to become a protector, He was merely magnifying the bad emotion of the people who killed Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen (if there was no negative emotion in the first place, what is there to magnify?) - But, having the negative emotion dormant is actually different from magnifying it to the point that they executed the bad intention.  It means they completed the four factors that can create the bad karma - the intent, the execution, the completion, and the satisfaction for having executing the deed.  Why an oath bound protector caused someone to create bad karma?

-  The Ban by Dalai Lama - This is similar to the first case for some people to execute the ban. the impact is similar with Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen murder.  People breaking samaya with their guru by unswearing a swear (which does not make sense because you cannot unswear a swear.  If you can unswear a swear, the foundation of us taking refuge in a Lama is pointless, because you can undo your refuge vow at anytime – unswear a swear) and for the Tibetan government to execute the ban by depriving DS practitioners of their connections and necessities.

The basis that I used to analyze this matter:
•   Bad karma creation is complete when the following exists:  the intent, the execution of the deed, the completion of the deed, and the satisfaction that come afterward
•   Enlightened being and oath bound protector will not mean to harm sentient beings and causing them to create bad karma

Cheers

Michaela

[Ensapa]

Dear forum participants,

With regard to Dorje Shugden, there are several things not really clear to me:

-  Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen Murder - The circumstances surrounding Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen becoming a protector.  Nechung helped to create circumstances around Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen so that he could generate wrath.  That involved several Dalai Lama attendants committing an extraordinary bad karma to kill him, a holy being.  Why Nechung created the circumstances where several people needed to commit extraordinary bad karma so that Dorje Shugden could manifest?


Maybe those people were already doing something really bad, and doing this helps to purify their karma. It is a well known fact that Desi Sangye Gyatso used the 5th Dalai Lama's name to gain political power, literally ruling tibet single handedly as the Dalai Lama's changtso and going against the Dalai Lama's wishes to not incite a war. The result of that was he died painfully when the Dungzars invaded. For the said people to "kill" Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, they were already doing something negative anyway, why not do something that will benefit more people in the long run?


-  The ban by Dalai Lama - why an enlightened being like Dalai Lama also seemed to support bad karma creation a bad karma by severing students' samaya with their gurus by unswearing a swear to DS  and creation of bad karma by the Tibetan government for enforcing this ban by depriving DS practitioners of whatever they used to enjoy and creating confusion in their mind.

I have been thinking about this matter for sometime, and my conclusion right now are as follows:

I remember my experiences when engaging in prostration retreat.  All the bad emotion that I thought have been kept hidden under control are magnified to the point I thought I could not handle it any longer before it being completely purged.  Sometimes, I just needed to be physically still in order not to hurt anyone.  That was of course in addition to numerous minor physical accidents that I experienced. 

So I think what happened were:

-  Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen Murder - when Nechung was creating the circumstances for Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen to become a protector, He was merely magnifying the bad emotion of the people who killed Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen (if there was no negative emotion in the first place, what is there to magnify?) - But, having the negative emotion dormant is actually different from magnifying it to the point that they executed the bad intention.  It means they completed the four factors that can create the bad karma - the intent, the execution, the completion, and the satisfaction for having executing the deed.  Why an oath bound protector caused someone to create bad karma?
If it was for the greater good, why not? the people who wanted to kill Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen had bad intentions anyway, they already wanted to kill him, Nechung only gave them a chance so that Dorje Shugden can manifest.

-  The Ban by Dalai Lama - This is similar to the first case for some people to execute the ban. the impact is similar with Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen murder.  People breaking samaya with their guru by unswearing a swear (which does not make sense because you cannot unswear a swear.  If you can unswear a swear, the foundation of us taking refuge in a Lama is pointless, because you can undo your refuge vow at anytime – unswear a swear) and for the Tibetan government to execute the ban by depriving DS practitioners of their connections and necessities.
The Ban by the Dalai Lama is no doubt bad, but there were many good things that came out of it like having more stable practitioners that hold their commitments no matter what, and also the exponential growth of Dorje Shugden's practice in China. Without the ban, i dont think we can see practitioners who hold their vows and commitments no matter what.

The basis that I used to analyze this matter:
•   Bad karma creation is complete when the following exists:  the intent, the execution of the deed, the completion of the deed, and the satisfaction that come afterward
•   Enlightened being and oath bound protector will not mean to harm sentient beings and causing them to create bad karma

Cheers

Michaela

I hope you find my comments helpful

[michaela]

Dear Ensapa

Thank you for the response.  You have not made the following points clear however:
-  The murder of Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen - Buddha and oath bound protector are there to benefit sentient beings.  Regardless of whether these Dalai Lama's attendants is evil by nature or not is not the matter of discussion in the question.  But the fact that Nechung is adding up the bad karma of someone who is already have a lot of bad karma already.  This type of person actually need to be pitied instead of being pushed to do more bad deeds.
-  The ban by Dalai Lama - what I was asking is not how the ban has benefit the practice of Dorje Shugden.  But why create more bad karma for the people enforcing the ban, they can be severing the students' samaya with their guru and create so much confusion in people's mind.

[DharmaDefender]

Hi michaela, I see it this way -

1. Scenario A - the attendants already had negative karma dormant. In that life, or in a future life, the negative karma would have fruitioned so they harmed another being without any positive result. At least in this instance, their negative actions resulted in a Dharmapala. Im not saying murder is OK! Im just saying, given their negative karma to be able to kill someone, it was only a matter of time they were going to commit an action of equal negative karma...might as well commit an action that resulted in a positive result. Im just thinking back to Buddha Shakyamuni and how he killed one person, to save 499 people on a ferry.

2. Scenario B - alternatively, you can also see the attendants as manifestations of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen. This is just pure speculation, Ive not read anything to confirm this. Im only bringing it up because I know enlightened beings can manifest as both student and teacher.

As to your other question, to me, a swear is a matter of the heart. If I make a commitment to my lama and it resides in my heart, whatever I utter, the commitment is still there. Meaning I might unswear verbally, but in my heart my commitment is still there. Of course, Id rather NOT have to unswear but if I really have to, then I have to...in this instance Im thinking of monks who were held at gunpoint by Chinese troops and forced to rape nuns.

To me, it is the reason why many lamas are revealed to still be secretly practising Dorje Shugden after so many years. They appeared to have given up the practice, but in reality still hold Dorje Shugden in their hearts. Case in point, the former 101st Gaden Tripa and Samdhong Rinpoche. After his term is completed, the Gaden Trisur defects to Shar Gaden and after many years, Samdhong Rinpoche says he only does what his root guru Trijang Rinpoche tells him to do hmmmm

But if you cant buy that, then lets use your logic of intent, execution, completion and satisfaction if I unswear (execution and completion), but my intent and satisfaction to unswear are missing, then the action is not complete. As I see it, in that case, the samaya is not fully severed and is repairable.

So why create more bad karma? The way I answer this for myself is that for many of the people who are confused, they were going to be confused anyway - if something so simple as a secular government telling them the practice is banned, can shake their guru devotion, were they REALLY devoted to their guru and practice in the first place? If the ban wasnt going to shake their faith, something else later wouldve.

[Lawrence L]

Dear Ensapa

Thank you for the response.  You have not made the following points clear however:
-  The murder of Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen - Buddha and oath bound protector are there to benefit sentient beings.  Regardless of whether these Dalai Lama's attendants is evil by nature or not is not the matter of discussion in the question.  But the fact that Nechung is adding up the bad karma of someone who is already have a lot of bad karma already.  This type of person actually need to be pitied instead of being pushed to do more bad deeds.
-  The ban by Dalai Lama - what I was asking is not how the ban has benefit the practice of Dorje Shugden.  But why create more bad karma for the people enforcing the ban, they can be severing the students' samaya with their guru and create so much confusion in people's mind.

My personal view: Nechung creates circumtances for the Dalai Lama's attendants to kill Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen not the intention to kill. The intention to kill Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen is already formed. When karma ripen, even Buddha couldn't do anything. Buddha could only help when karma is not ripen yet. The fact that u said Nechung is adding up the bad karma of the Dalai Lama's attendants, to me it's not necessarily work in this way. If the murder could make Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen a Dharma Protector to protect Tsongkapa's teaching and benefits all the practitioner and sentient beings, the murder itself could purify the bad intention/karma of the Dalai Lama's attendants maybe?

[Ensapa]

Dear Ensapa

Thank you for the response.  You have not made the following points clear however:
-  The murder of Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen - Buddha and oath bound protector are there to benefit sentient beings.  Regardless of whether these Dalai Lama's attendants is evil by nature or not is not the matter of discussion in the question.  But the fact that Nechung is adding up the bad karma of someone who is already have a lot of bad karma already.  This type of person actually need to be pitied instead of being pushed to do more bad deeds.
-  The ban by Dalai Lama - what I was asking is not how the ban has benefit the practice of Dorje Shugden.  But why create more bad karma for the people enforcing the ban, they can be severing the students' samaya with their guru and create so much confusion in people's mind.

Hi michaela,

 - Whether or not something is negative or positive, it depends on the outcome. In this case, those people had bad intentions but the result of it was the rise of Dorje Shugden who has benefitted an infinite number of beings. So their "bad " action is good instead because of the results.

- people enforcing the ban the correct way will not incur bad karma, but people who are overzealous and cause others to break their vows just to tow in line will incur. it is not about enforcing the ban, it is about practicing Guru devotion (to the Dalai Lama) without falling into extremes or fanaticism, in which many people has failed.

[michaela]

Dear Dharma Defender

Thank you for the reply  .  I can agree with your explanation on the followings:
- unswearing, if the intention is not there, the action is not complete.

But I can't agree (don't buy as you said hehe... ) your scenario A and B:

-  Scenario A.  You cannot compare the act of Shakyamuni Buddha killing 1 person to save the other 499 person to the acti of Dalai Lama attendants to kill Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen.  The intention could not be more different one is noble, the others are the result of delusion (evidenced by the calamities that are experienced by the Tibetans afterward due to murdering a holy being).  And if at the time of the murder, the karma to kill by the Dalai Lama attendants have not ripen, it still can be purified.  So I think it would more beneficial if nechung created the situation for Dalai Lama attendants to purify his karma instead of making them kill a holy being. 

My point of raising this issue is I don't think anyone, no matter how bad they are should be pushed to do more bad deeds that worsen their karma.  Instead, these people need to be encourage to do good.

Scenario B:  Pure speculation because it cannot be proven and the indications that happened afterward (calamities experienced due to killing a holy being and affected many people) tend to refute your argument.

Cheers

Michaela
 

 

[DharmaDefender]

Dear Dharma Defender

Thank you for the reply  .  I can agree with your explanation on the followings:
- unswearing, if the intention is not there, the action is not complete.

But I can't agree (don't buy as you said hehe... ) your scenario A and B:

-  Scenario A.  You cannot compare the act of Shakyamuni Buddha killing 1 person to save the other 499 person to the acti of Dalai Lama attendants to kill Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen.  The intention could not be more different one is noble, the others are the result of delusion (evidenced by the calamities that are experienced by the Tibetans afterward due to murdering a holy being).  And if at the time of the murder, the karma to kill by the Dalai Lama attendants have not ripen, it still can be purified.  So I think it would more beneficial if nechung created the situation for Dalai Lama attendants to purify his karma instead of making them kill a holy being. 

My point of raising this issue is I don't think anyone, no matter how bad they are should be pushed to do more bad deeds that worsen their karma.  Instead, these people need to be encourage to do good.

Scenario B:  Pure speculation because it cannot be proven and the indications that happened afterward (calamities experienced due to killing a holy being and affected many people) tend to refute your argument.

Cheers

Michaela

No argument there that no matter how bad a person is, they need to be encouraged to do good. And yes in that sense, when judging from the basis of intent then yes, the acts are totally different. But two things:

1. Looking at it from Nechungs point of view, although hes unenlightened, his motivation was noble (to create an uncommon protector for Je Tsongkhapas tradition)

2. Im just wondering then how else Nechung couldve gone about it? If Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen had no more anger in his mindstream, what other scenario could he have created in order to create such a protector?

Actually what LawrenceL says makes sense to me:  "Nechung creates circumtances for the Dalai Lama's attendants to kill Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen not the intention to kill. The intention to kill Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen is already formed. When karma ripen, even Buddha couldn't do anything."

Hahaha like I said, Scenario B is pure speculation by the way, I dont think the calamities necessarily refute my argument? Meaning theres still karma attached to killing a being, whether the being is manifested as both student and teacher (or in this case murderer and murdered).

[DharmaSpace]

This is a very interesting question.

Its like if Buddha/Enlightened Protectors can manifest countless/innumerable forms can they be at the beck and call of every being there is ever in the universe. But that is probably not the case and it is not effective. teach people how to fish not just give them fish all the time. 

a) If people were always watched over, and due to them being watched over they do ok, and if they do not get watched over then they do not ok. Its not going to work the people will never learn or be independent. Hence Buddha teach the path, and he does not wash our sins away, coz as long as we have the secret pig we will never be cleansed. 

b) I think there is a limit to the emanations versus sentient beings, I can't prove this though.

c) Can a person who has tremendous negative karma (something like schism, or wrong views can create a lot of negative karma in one's minds leading to negative actions), receive help from the dharma protector. What I saw during the oracle taking trance when Kache Marpo enters is that he continuously wipes his face over and over again. Because the karma of the beings preventing the dharma protector to render help to the beings. 

Nechung is a worldly protector but will be enlightened one day through serving the dalai Lama, if dalai lama was plain evil serving an evil person Nechung wil not be enlightened. So have faith in both the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden. 

What I am also saying is if the attendants of the Dalai Lama did not create the bad karma of killing Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen they might have still done the same actions that would have led to the same result. As what Lawrence said is true that came from the fact that Buddha and the Arhats could not save the Sakyas from being massacred as the karma to die was already manifesting. I think the attendants must have had tremendous wrong views to even have thoughts about killing another monk and a learned one as well. A monk does not harm, and these attendants are monks themselves, they must have had very strong wrong views. 

People who have a hardened mind it might be too late to reverse their downfall, it is only a question of time and who the negative action will manifest on.     

Actually it was Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen who gave them the methods to kill him by advising them to stuff khata down his throats.

I mean the person you want to kill advising you, shouldn't that ring a lot of bells not to do such a negative actions.   
 

[michaela]

Dear Dharma Defender

The problem with Lawrence L's argument is at the time when Nechung created the situation, the karma of these attendants have not been ripened yet.  It appears to me that by Nechung creating the situation for Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen to generate wrath, Nechung pushed these people to commit the deed thus ripening the karma. otherwise, the act of killing would not have been done.

My point is would it be more beneficial for Nechung to push these people to purify their karma instead of pushing them to kill a holy being?

Michaela

[beggar]

Another perspective:
it is by the murder that Dorje Shugden could arise in this current form as a Dharma Protector and thus benefit countless other beings. So in a twisted, roundabout way, the murderers made it possible for us to even be on this forum talking about Dorje Shugden.

So it could perhaps also work like this: while TDG's murderers collect very heavy negative karma for killing, they are also continuing to collect a tremendous amount of merit. See, for every person that is benefited by Dorje Shugden's practice and help since then onwards, they may be getting the "returns" of the merit, generated by being the cause of him arising as a Dharma protector in the first place.

In this way, Nechung creates a cause for them to be directly connected to something that would be HUGE and very much beneficial in the long term. Yes, they do collect negative karma from killing a high being and would have to suffer the effects of that karma, but the merit accrued from being thus connected to a high being would also reap much, much, much more merit that would last long into the future. 

[Big Uncle]

This is a very interesting discussion here and I do agree with most what has been mentioned. However, I don't think we should be too fixated with the point of the killing Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen so much because the High Lama knew and was prepared for the murder. In fact, he helped his assassins to end his life. If he was a real Lama and he knew that his assassins was about to commit their worst negative karma ever, wouldn't he stop them? Wouldn't he find another way like committing suicide himself or something.

Due to their delusions, they committed murder and one way or another, they would have done something of lesser or equal magnitude. However, that would have been it and they suffer the consequences and have no Dharma seeds after that. But for these few assassins, they have gained the merit of becoming the cause for a fully enlightened Dharma Protector to arise. After suffering the repercussions, they would have a good rebirth and perhaps practice Dorje Shugden. Any contact with Dorje Shugden or Manjushri no matter how bad the initial motivation would definitely arise as benefit in the long run. That's the power and motivation of a fully enlightened being.

I think the same reasoning and logic can also be applied with the motivation behind the ban on Dorje Shugden

[DharmaSpace]

It is said that Shariputra was an emanation of Buddha Shakyamuni as no one else knew how to ask the right questions for the beings to learn more. the High Level Bodhisattvas could have asked the right questions which will lead to Buddha Shakyamuni teaching much much more but not many beings then could see the mahasattvas or even have the right perception to hear or see them. So DharmaDefender has a point that the attendants could actually be emanations of Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen.

On page 549 of the Liberation in the Palm of your hand, Shariputra wanted to teach certain group of monks the Hinayana dharma, But Manjushri taught them the Mahayana Dharma first and this was too much for the monks and they went to hell. Shariputra asked the Buddha why ? To which Buddha exclaimed "how skilful is Manjushri. If I am not wrong the monks eventually became enlightened much faster.

[Ensapa]

Dear Dharma Defender

The problem with Lawrence L's argument is at the time when Nechung created the situation, the karma of these attendants have not been ripened yet.  It appears to me that by Nechung creating the situation for Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen to generate wrath, Nechung pushed these people to commit the deed thus ripening the karma. otherwise, the act of killing would not have been done.

My point is would it be more beneficial for Nechung to push these people to purify their karma instead of pushing them to kill a holy being?

Michaela

perhaps by killing this holy being, an even more holier being that can benefit even more people would appear and from that they gain a lot of merits? Dorje Shugden has and can benefit so many more and he can bring everyone to the right paths for them. Have you saw it from that angle before? Also, the 5th Dalai Lama's main attendant, Sangye Gyatso returns as a reincarnate Lama and even has 2 reincarnations: one in Drepung monastery and the other as Sogyal Rinpoche. So the killing of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen is but another illusory play in order to benefit us, living beings.

[Big Uncle]

perhaps by killing this holy being, an even more holier being that can benefit even more people would appear and from that they gain a lot of merits? Dorje Shugden has and can benefit so many more and he can bring everyone to the right paths for them. Have you saw it from that angle before? Also, the 5th Dalai Lama's main attendant, Sangye Gyatso returns as a reincarnate Lama and even has 2 reincarnations: one in Drepung monastery and the other as Sogyal Rinpoche. So the killing of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen is but another illusory play in order to benefit us, living beings.

Dear Ensapa,

What do you mean by an even 'holier being'? Are you saying that Dorje Shugden is even holier than Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen? Or are you really saying that a Dharma Protector is holier than a Lama. I wouldn't say that. I would say that Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen kept his promise by allowing himself to be assassinated. This promise was made several incarnations ago to preserve and protect the special teachings of Lama Tsongkhapa. In that way, Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen would be able to benefit countless beings. I am sure that there are many emanations of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen all over.

Even when these few negative beings committed very bad karma, they did it but also created a powerful bond with an emanation of Manjushri. Therefore, they will be somehow saved perhaps not in that lifetime but in another lifetime. No matter what actions that one commit towards a holy being, the connection created would eventually bring benefit to them. With such negative minds, they would have committed other forms of negative actions eventually. However, I am pretty sure, they had created a powerful cause towards Manjushri. That would be their eventual salvation later.