Bad Karma Surrounding DS

[honeydakini]

Even when these few negative beings committed very bad karma, they did it but also created a powerful bond with an emanation of Manjushri. Therefore, they will be somehow saved perhaps not in that lifetime but in another lifetime. No matter what actions that one commit towards a holy being, the connection created would eventually bring benefit to them. With such negative minds, they would have committed other forms of negative actions eventually. However, I am pretty sure, they had created a powerful cause towards Manjushri. That would be their eventual salvation later.

Hi Big Uncle
I understand what you mean about creating a connection with an enlightened being, but the negativity that you create by making that connection in such a terrible way would surely almost make that connection a very negligible one. And surely there are many other ways of creating a connection instead of killing him! Isn't that one of the heinous crimes - to kill a Buddha? So yes, although it is Manjushri, and we create a connection with him, we are also killing him. Wouldn't we then also take on the karma of all the beings that he could have helped in that incarnation but didn't because he was killed? It would take aeons upon aeons upon aeons before this person who killed Manjushri could come back out again to even stand a chance at practicing.

[Ensapa]

Dear Ensapa,

What do you mean by an even 'holier being'? Are you saying that Dorje Shugden is even holier than Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen? Or are you really saying that a Dharma Protector is holier than a Lama. I wouldn't say that. I would say that Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen kept his promise by allowing himself to be assassinated. This promise was made several incarnations ago to preserve and protect the special teachings of Lama Tsongkhapa. In that way, Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen would be able to benefit countless beings. I am sure that there are many emanations of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen all over.
I meant that Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen could already benefit so many beings as Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, but if he took the form of Dorje Shugden, he could benefit even more beings and it was not possible for him to appear as Dorje Shugden if his human form was still around. So he allowed himself to be killed so that he could become that greater being, and the people involved in this would be the ones who caused Dorje Shugden to arise.

Even when these few negative beings committed very bad karma, they did it but also created a powerful bond with an emanation of Manjushri. Therefore, they will be somehow saved perhaps not in that lifetime but in another lifetime. No matter what actions that one commit towards a holy being, the connection created would eventually bring benefit to them. With such negative minds, they would have committed other forms of negative actions eventually. However, I am pretty sure, they had created a powerful cause towards Manjushri. That would be their eventual salvation later.
Desi Sangye Gyatso (which is assumed to be the one who planned it) was killed and disgraced during that lifetime after evoking the anger of Lazhang Khan. But perhaps, it is better to create negativity towards a holy being as opposed to an ordinary person because the holy being will still eventually pull that offender back onto the path.

Thanks for the input, Big Uncle, but i was just sort of giving alternatives to the incident to help us think I think this is an important topic that we should try and reconcile and understand with because people will ask about this.

[DharmaSpace]

Yes the attendants did kill a holy being, but the result was a peerless dharma protector has come to tame the world, how wonderful is that! So comparing the negative karma they have created is small compared to to the MERIT they have created, this might in the long ru have quickened their path to liberation.

I recall Shariputra was asking why did Manjushri taught emptiness to 500 monks who were not ready for it hence they developed wrong views and many went to hell, but the skilful means of Manjushri to quicken their path out of samsara. I felt as before the attendants were already heading to hell, nechung just manifest the conditions for the attendants to act it out, but it coud be any other condition later that triggers these attendants heading to hell. 

[Ensapa]

Hi Big Uncle
I understand what you mean about creating a connection with an enlightened being, but the negativity that you create by making that connection in such a terrible way would surely almost make that connection a very negligible one. And surely there are many other ways of creating a connection instead of killing him! Isn't that one of the heinous crimes - to kill a Buddha? So yes, although it is Manjushri, and we create a connection with him, we are also killing him. Wouldn't we then also take on the karma of all the beings that he could have helped in that incarnation but didn't because he was killed? It would take aeons upon aeons upon aeons before this person who killed Manjushri could come back out again to even stand a chance at practicing.

yes it is one of the 5 heinous crimes, but does a Buddha can only bring benefit and not harm? So if the Buddha can only bring benefit, although killing him generates tremendous amounts of negative karma, the killers will eventually be able to get back on the right path again someday after the negative karma ends. I am not supporting the idea that it is acceptable to kill Buddhas, but merely reconciling the fact that the Buddhas can only benefit, so if the Buddhas can only benefit living beings, how can any action towards the Buddhas send them to hell for eternity? Nobody can deny the negative karma that the people who killed Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen has created, but who else can deny that they also collect the merits for creating the environmental causes for Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen to arise as Dorje Shugden?

[yontenjamyang]

Dear All,

My opinion about this issue is that it is the results that is the most important. What is the results of the 5th Dalai Lama's attendants "killing" Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen? What is the result of the 14th Dalai Lama banning the practice. The first resulted in the protector arising and the the second the protector practice spread far and wide and is continuing to spread.

The immediate results of committing bad karma are a small price to pay. As Karma is fixed, ie must ripened on the person committing the action/cause, the 5th Dalai Lama's attendant will suffer in hell but because the results is the arising of an uncommon protector, their merits are also immeasurable. The 14th Dalai Lama is non other than Chenrezig and as such he is not subjected to karma.

[Ensapa]

Dear All,

My opinion about this issue is that it is the results that is the most important. What is the results of the 5th Dalai Lama's attendants "killing" Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen? What is the result of the 14th Dalai Lama banning the practice. The first resulted in the protector arising and the the second the protector practice spread far and wide and is continuing to spread.

The immediate results of committing bad karma are a small price to pay. As Karma is fixed, ie must ripened on the person committing the action/cause, the 5th Dalai Lama's attendant will suffer in hell but because the results is the arising of an uncommon protector, their merits are also immeasurable. The 14th Dalai Lama is non other than Chenrezig and as such he is not subjected to karma.

This is my point exactly. When one wants to consider whether or not something is bad or good, one has to see the results that come from such an action. The attendants of the 5th Dalai Lama, mainly Sanggye Gyatso had immediate  negative repercussions from what he did but at the same time he would have merits from creating the causes for Dorje Shugden to arise from Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, fulfilling Nechung's promise of creating the environmental causes for Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen to arise as a Dharma protector. Although to be honest, I do wonder why does Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen need the environmental causes to manifest as a Dharma protector, he could have manifested as a peaceful Dharma protector who can be the Yidam and Guru at the same time, like Drikung Kagyu's uncommon protector Achi Chokyi Drolma.

[Big Uncle]

Even when these few negative beings committed very bad karma, they did it but also created a powerful bond with an emanation of Manjushri. Therefore, they will be somehow saved perhaps not in that lifetime but in another lifetime. No matter what actions that one commit towards a holy being, the connection created would eventually bring benefit to them. With such negative minds, they would have committed other forms of negative actions eventually. However, I am pretty sure, they had created a powerful cause towards Manjushri. That would be their eventual salvation later.

Hi Big Uncle
I understand what you mean about creating a connection with an enlightened being, but the negativity that you create by making that connection in such a terrible way would surely almost make that connection a very negligible one. And surely there are many other ways of creating a connection instead of killing him! Isn't that one of the heinous crimes - to kill a Buddha? So yes, although it is Manjushri, and we create a connection with him, we are also killing him. Wouldn't we then also take on the karma of all the beings that he could have helped in that incarnation but didn't because he was killed? It would take aeons upon aeons upon aeons before this person who killed Manjushri could come back out again to even stand a chance at practicing.

Well honeydakini,

These assassins didn't have the merit to see the qualities of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen. They only say him as a hindrance to their lamas' works. They already had the negative karma to create such immense negative karma but however, no matter how bad the karma is, it can be purified. Even the heinous crimes can be purified by the Higher Tantras like Yamantaka. Yes, the connection could have arisen from something less negative but they didn't have the merit for that. They only had the karma for this. However, the little seed of creating this contact with Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen/Dorje Shugden/Manjushri is very powerful and cannot be destroyed. It will surface once again at a future time when the negative karma exhausts.

[Ensapa]

Even when these few negative beings committed very bad karma, they did it but also created a powerful bond with an emanation of Manjushri. Therefore, they will be somehow saved perhaps not in that lifetime but in another lifetime. No matter what actions that one commit towards a holy being, the connection created would eventually bring benefit to them. With such negative minds, they would have committed other forms of negative actions eventually. However, I am pretty sure, they had created a powerful cause towards Manjushri. That would be their eventual salvation later.

Hi Big Uncle
I understand what you mean about creating a connection with an enlightened being, but the negativity that you create by making that connection in such a terrible way would surely almost make that connection a very negligible one. And surely there are many other ways of creating a connection instead of killing him! Isn't that one of the heinous crimes - to kill a Buddha? So yes, although it is Manjushri, and we create a connection with him, we are also killing him. Wouldn't we then also take on the karma of all the beings that he could have helped in that incarnation but didn't because he was killed? It would take aeons upon aeons upon aeons before this person who killed Manjushri could come back out again to even stand a chance at practicing.

Well honeydakini,

These assassins didn't have the merit to see the qualities of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen. They only say him as a hindrance to their lamas' works. They already had the negative karma to create such immense negative karma but however, no matter how bad the karma is, it can be purified. Even the heinous crimes can be purified by the Higher Tantras like Yamantaka. Yes, the connection could have arisen from something less negative but they didn't have the merit for that. They only had the karma for this. However, the little seed of creating this contact with Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen/Dorje Shugden/Manjushri is very powerful and cannot be destroyed. It will surface once again at a future time when the negative karma exhausts.

So can we say that although their intentions were bad and their actions were even worse, Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen's murderers would have to go to hell for a long, long time but after their negative karma has exhausted, they will be disciples of Dorje Shugden/Lama Tsongkhapa? But they were the catalyst for something bigger and something more, and that is for creating the causes and conditions for Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen to arise as Dorje Shugden. However, if desi sangye gyatso is involved in this, then it would be a bit hard to explain why is it that sogyal rinpoche is considered his incarnation, and also there was another mention of his reincarnation that is studying in drepung  now? how do we reconcile this, assuming that desi sangye gyatso planned all of this.

[Dondrup Shugden]

When the result of a negative karma in murdering Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen is the arising of Dorje Shugden to benefit so many sentient beings, then can this course of action be one that is purification of a negative karma ripening?

Not that murder is good but at the same time the murder of TDG was orchestrated by Nechung so that TDG will arise with wrath which was not present in TDG in order for TDG to be a Protector.

Therefore can it be said that the murder had 2 good intentions on the part of Nechung but obviously not on the attendants of 5th Dalai Lama.

Having the above view, is it possible that the havoc to day with the Ban be orchestrated for the same results so that Dorje Shugden will be more and more well known.

Having said that can it also be possible that the broken samaya of students with their Gurus is another form of purification so that we have obstacles on our spiritual path.