Dorje Shugden only applicable to Gelug Practitioners?

[michaela]

Dear Forum Participants

In the article:  Must Watch Advice from HH Kyabje Zong Dorje Chang on Dorje Shugden Part 1

http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=7106

“If you have to or if you wish to do some kind of Dharmic activities with other sects of Buddhism, that is okay to do some kind of activities but your main practice or the principle practice, you have to make the commitment with this lineage of Lama Tsongkhapa. That’s why I mentioned before, you have to know and told that you should not take initiation if you are not sure. So once you take this initiation, then you have to make a commitment with the Gelug lineage and this is necessary not to mix up everything.”

Does it mean that practitioner from other Buddhist traditions cannot take DS initiation? 

This statement confused me because of the following:

•   Lama Tsongkhapa teachings are universal.  It takes of what is good from all traditions.  So although Lama Tsongkhapa established a Gelugpa sect, the teachings are applicable to other sects as well.  It is good reference for Buddhist teachings regardless of what sect of tradition you belong to.  Even if I am a Theravadan, I still need a protector to stabilize my practice.

•   Dorje Shugden was the re-incarnation of Sakya Pandita.  The sakyas worshipped him and have good connection with him.  So supposely I am a Sakya, can I take Dorje Shugden Initiation although I am not a Gelug practitioner?

•   Does the current Ban imposed by the Dalai Lama only applicable to Gelugpa lineage practitioners?  Does the head of other Buddhist sects, such as Karmapa from Kagyu sect concured with Dalai Lama’s current ban of Dorje Shugden’s practice?

Thank you and looking forward to your response to my queries.

Regards

Michaela

[Ensapa]

Not really. DS encourages people to only focus on their own tradition. If they are too fragmented and they go for each and every tradition and not mastering anything at the end, they give a bad impression to others that all of these traditions are bad and ineffective, driving more people away from these traditions rather than attracting them. If you think carefully, DS appeared in all 4 traditions. In Nygima, he is actually Guru Rinpoche. He was actually a kagyu lama as dulzin dragpa gyaltsen before joining Lama Tsongkhapa. In Sakya, he was Sakya Pandita and Buton Rinchen Drup. So effectively, he has traversed all 4 traditions before and he cannot be sectarian at all. People who claim he is either have their own agendas or they do not do enough research.

[michaela]

The point of the question is not whether I am claiming Dorje Shugden is a secterian deity.  What I am asking is why he is not more universal.  There are chappels everywhere in country like Cambodia and Thailand of Dorje Shugden in the common form - not other form.  For example in Thailand, Theravadan is the pre-dominant Buddhist. 

If Zong Rinpoche states that only Gelug practitioners can receive Dorje Shugden initiation and applicable for DS lineage, does that mean that the Theravadan Buddhists in Thailand who feel connections to Dorje Shugden should convert to Gelug as well?
 

[Zach]

Dorje shugden protects primarily Tsongkhapas doctrine. Of course He is a Dharmapala as well so he can be requested to help practitoners with whatever they practice.

[DharmaDefender]

The point of the question is not whether I am claiming Dorje Shugden is a secterian deity.  What I am asking is why he is not more universal.  There are chappels everywhere in country like Cambodia and Thailand of Dorje Shugden in the common form - not other form.  For example in Thailand, Theravadan is the pre-dominant Buddhist. 

If Zong Rinpoche states that only Gelug practitioners can receive Dorje Shugden initiation and applicable for DS lineage, does that mean that the Theravadan Buddhists in Thailand who feel connections to Dorje Shugden should convert to Gelug as well?
 

Michaela, I think theres been a misinterpretation of Kyabje Zong Rinpoches words and you might need to clarify your question a little. Theres a BIG difference between seeking help from a Dharmapala, and taking initiation.

Meaning theres nothing wrong with practitioners in Thailand reciting his mantra and requesting his help. Course hes going to help, hes a Buddha so that makes him very universal.

But if theyre going to take initiation, hold bodhisattva vows, then they wont be considered Theravadan anymore because as far as Im aware, Theravadans dont have a tradition of taking initiation / bodhisattva vows? I could be wrong.

So Zong Rinpoche is very right in saying that those who take initiation should make a commitment to the Gelug lineage because he doesnt want us confused by subscribing to too many schools of teachings...it applies to all schools, not just Gelug.

Teachers never encourage their students to play pick and mix with any teachings...consider it a case of them dissuading us from becoming a jack of all trades and master of none...in any case, as far as Im aware, given the nature of the yanas, if you take the bodhisattva vows (as you do during initation), your Theravadan vows are automatically covered anyway.

I suppose if Sakyas want to take initiation, they have their own lineage / tradition of teachings that they can take initiation from. Not necessary they take the Gelug lineage.

[michaela]

Dear Dharma Defender

Thank you for the explanation.  I would like to confirm one thing and I have a question:

Confirmation:  so if one is not a gelug practitioners, you cannot take DS initiation although as your admin said Shugden should no longer be considered a protector of just Je Rinpoche's lineage, but a world peace protector as Gangchen Rinpoche mentions many times. 

Question:  what are the benefits of taking DS initiation compared to just provoking his help, reciting his mantras and sadhana?

Michaela
 

[DharmaDefender]

Dear Dharma Defender

Thank you for the explanation.  I would like to confirm one thing and I have a question:

Confirmation:  so if one is not a gelug practitioners, you cannot take DS initiation although as your admin said Shugden should no longer be considered a protector of just Je Rinpoche's lineage, but a world peace protector as Gangchen Rinpoche mentions many times. 

Question:  what are the benefits of taking DS initiation compared to just provoking his help, reciting his mantras and sadhana?

Michaela

Np michaela

Yes, if one is not Gelug then DS initiation from the Gelug lineage probably isnt recommended. Its not because we dont want you, or DS wont help you if you take initiation even though youre not Gelug. I ONLY say this because if you already belong to another lineage but youre still searching for something else, chances are your ability to commit to one practice isnt very strong. When it comes to initiations of any deity, such lack of commitment is very dangerous. So you just dont want to mix up traditions.

I dont think the admin or Gangchen Rinpoche are seeing things different. I think theres just been a simple misinterpretation. Let me put it this way - is there a difference between Je Rinpoches lineage and world peace?

Ive always been taught that world peace starts with each of us (apologies for the beauty pagaentry). Once each of us sorts ourselves out (using whatever tradition we come from, or Tsongkhapas lineage in this case), then world peace starts because our perspective has shifted to assume bodhicitta (or as His Holiness likes to call it, universal responsibility). So in that way, admins perspective and Gangchen Rinpoches match.

Regarding the benefits of taking DS initiation compared to invoking his help, Im actually not too sure. Im assuming its got to do with the speed that he helps you. This is NOT what has been taught to me by the way, its just my own twisted analogy - I think that just reciting his mantra is like using dial-up internet. And after you receive initiation and you can visualise yourself as the deity, then asking for his help is like using broadband internet hahaha

[michaela]

So if DS initiation is not allowed for non-gelug practitioners.  What is the point for introducing DS to them in the first place because they cannot practice all the way. 

But anyway, I think to respond to this questions, I need to have the information about what is the benefit of having the DS initiation and just invoking DS without initiation.  The discrepancies will be the benefits that are closed to the non-gelug practitioners

[Ensapa]

So if DS initiation is not allowed for non-gelug practitioners.  What is the point for introducing DS to them in the first place because they cannot practice all the way. 

But anyway, I think to respond to this questions, I need to have the information about what is the benefit of having the DS initiation and just invoking DS without initiation.  The discrepancies will be the benefits that are closed to the non-gelug practitioners

DS initiations are not allowed to non Gelugs because a requirement of his initiation is that you need to commit to the Gelug teachings for life. The reason behind this is that if you mess up with the Gelug system by tainting it with other methods that are equally good, it would waste a lot of time as we would not be able to take advantage of Tsongkhapa's excellent methods to attain enlightenment. But this does not mean that Dorje Shugden will not aid those who are not Gelug who request his assistance. He still does as he is a Buddha after all. The initiation is simply a pledge that will make Dorje Shugden closer to you, and it is not a requirement for him to help you.

[dsiluvu]

So if DS initiation is not allowed for non-gelug practitioners.  What is the point for introducing DS to them in the first place because they cannot practice all the way. 

But anyway, I think to respond to this questions, I need to have the information about what is the benefit of having the DS initiation and just invoking DS without initiation.  The discrepancies will be the benefits that are closed to the non-gelug practitioners

DS initiations are not allowed to non Gelugs because a requirement of his initiation is that you need to commit to the Gelug teachings for life. The reason behind this is that if you mess up with the Gelug system by tainting it with other methods that are equally good, it would waste a lot of time as we would not be able to take advantage of Tsongkhapa's excellent methods to attain enlightenment. But this does not mean that Dorje Shugden will not aid those who are not Gelug who request his assistance. He still does as he is a Buddha after all. The initiation is simply a pledge that will make Dorje Shugden closer to you, and it is not a requirement for him to help you.

I agree with Ensapa's answer... by far makes most logical sense. Of course there is a difference between getting an initiation and just reciting a mantra of any Buddha. For example I am sure if you just recite Om Mani Pedme Hung you will still get the blessings and benefits of Chenrezig Buddha of Compassion. But to be initiated in to his practice is like sealing a commitment to his practice for life... this then becomes a more serious practice that will propel you in achieving faster results in your practice I believe. Hence it is always wise to understand clearly what is an initiation and what it entails, the complexity of the commitment you will be promising to keep and hold until you gain "Bodhicitta" or "Enlightenment"... it is a whole different path and commitment hence it is not just for this life, it is until you gain "Enlightenment"... hence life after life you will return to continue to practice in your lineage... until the ultimate goal is achieved. In this sense an initiation would mean you as a Dharma practitioner has taken a huge serious step in to entering a serious path to achieve HYT... which is to achieve Enlightenment, I believe this is so, correct me if I am wrong and hence it is very different from just praying to Dorje Shugden and requesting mundane help.   

Don't you find it strange how we're all weirdly somehow closer and more connected to certain lineage and teachings and not so for another? Must be because we practiced it in out previous lives? 

So if it is said that Dorje Shugden initiation is for Gelugpas, it is because Dorje Shugden is first and foremost a protector for Je Tsongkhapa's pure teachings and it is to ensure that Tsonkhapa's teachings not be polluted, mixed or perverted to the likings of unstable minds. This is just to safeguard the pure teachings and to encourage people to follow their own pure lineage which is perfect and good as well.

You see humans have the tendency to be fickle, disloyal and always looking for short cuts... I guess this is also one way to ensure this kind of mind games does not arise. To be committed to one Lama, one practice, one lineage to achieve Enlightenment is much more efficacious than mixing it all up... I guess that is why we follow what we feel most suitable for us.

Having said all that... Dorje Shugden is a universal protector and of course he will help everyone... that has nothing to do with getting his initiation... because He is after all a Dharma Protector and I am sure He will also bless you to gain the right path in achieving the ultimate - Bodhicitta (?) This is my understanding, hope it makes sense.

[beggar]

This is a very interesting discussion and I applaud you michaela for your questions. Always good to question to understand the teachings and practices better!

A few things to note:

I'd like to stress again that while Dorje Shugden arose principally to protect the teachings of the Gelug lineage, he is of course an enlightened being and would therefore help anyone who sincerely requests his help - Theravadans, hindus, christians and all included! Do remember that historically, Dorje Shugden was also widely propitiated by the Sakya school of Tibetan Buddhism too.

Secondly, we must be clear that it is NOT because the lamas, the Buddhas or protectors will be angered by us if we take teachings from other sects. This is a widely spread misunderstanding that has unfortunately developed into a wrong view that Dorje Shugden encourages sectarianism. This is absolutely not true. This practice of adhering to the teachings within one's lineage isn't just some question of loyalty. It is common sense. A gross comparison would be this - you don't go to Harvard AND Cambridge AND Oxford AND Yale universities at the same time. You stick with your course of education in Harvard and only when you have a firm foundation or are advised by your teachers would you begin to attend teachings from other schools. This is something that is practice across ALL lineages of Buddhism. A Theravadan would most likely stick with the teachings of the Theravadan traditions; a zen monk would engage principally in the teachings of zen etc.

This article might also help your understanding of this:
Does Dorje Shugden encourage sectarian practices?
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/does-dorje-shugden-encourage-sectarian-practices/

Now, understanding that, we must understand that although it is extremely powerful and efficacious, our main practices should not be focused on Dharma Protector practices. Ultimately, we should aim to rely upon the meditations and practices of a Yidam (meditation deity), lojong, the Lamrim etc. for those are the direct paths to enlightenment. The Dharma Protector practices are commonly regarded as auxilliary / supportive practices that help to remove obstacles along those direct paths and to provide the conducive conditions for us to traverse it more quickly.

So it would therefore follow that if we are receiving an initiation into a Protector practice, we should be quite advanced in other principal practices and commitments / vows within that particular school / lineage and would therefore require a "stronger" protector practice to support us. In this case, it would make sense that we are already firm within the lineage itself and consider ourselves to be followers / practitioners of the Gelug lineage, in this case. (This would apply equally for practitioners in the Sakya tradition who might also receive Dorje Shugden's initiation).

Having said that, anyone can still make a connection to Dorje Shugden by making offerings, and reciting simple prayers that can be recited without initiation. When we do this, we remove immediate obstacles to our spiritual journey and at the same time, create the causes to be able to find qualified teachers, centers, practices and a lineage / school where we can eventually, ultimately engage in deeper, stronger practices to lead us to enlightenment and freedom. Even if we feel we are "not ready" to commit to a lineage or school yet, Dorje Shugden will still help us to remove our immediate worldly obstacles and help us to find a way to a school and teacher that would be most karmically suited and beneficial to us and our spiritual journey. A possible non-Gelug  scenario: perhaps if we were strong Nyingma practitioners in a previous life and our affinity and karma is within that lineage, then praying to Dorje Shugden in this lifetime may lead us to finding a Nyingma Guru, center, and teachings for us to reconnect to the practices and lineage we pursued in our previous life. Dorje Shugden is not "greedy" for people to join just the Gelug school haha. As an enlightened being, his practice will lead us to what is most beneficial for us.

And anyway, once we're all enlightened, what difference does it really make if we got there by being Nyingma, Theravadans, zen or Gelug?

[DharmaDefender]

Not really. DS encourages people to only focus on their own tradition. If they are too fragmented and they go for each and every tradition and not mastering anything at the end, they give a bad impression to others that all of these traditions are bad and ineffective, driving more people away from these traditions rather than attracting them. If you think carefully, DS appeared in all 4 traditions. In Nygima, he is actually Guru Rinpoche. He was actually a kagyu lama as dulzin dragpa gyaltsen before joining Lama Tsongkhapa. In Sakya, he was Sakya Pandita and Buton Rinchen Drup. So effectively, he has traversed all 4 traditions before and he cannot be sectarian at all. People who claim he is either have their own agendas or they do not do enough research.

It does not mean that because you are Sakya, you cannot practise Dorje Shugden. Dorje Shugden will help you because he is an enlightened being but Zong Rinpoche has a point - playing pick and mix with our practices leads to no attainments (as I noticed Ive pointed out before, in my previous responses to this topic).

Let me put it to you another way. You go to university and assuming your administration lets you take courses from a few different degrees / departments, thats what you do. But unless your extremely accomplished, taking a few courses means youll graduate much later and itll take you longer to finish your degree. Why do you think doctors specialise in one field? That a brain surgeon doesnt try to be a heart surgeon, who doesnt try to advise on cancer or liver-related issues?

Or another example - if your a Methodist and you call out to the Lord for help, he is every bit as likely to help you as he will a Catholic. But on an everyday level, the manifestation of their practice is different.

So this is just a case of simple logic, and not at all sectarianism. When people accuse Dorje Shugden of being sectarian, actually they should level that "accusation" to ALL lamas since all of them encourage people to stick to the practices of one tradition...and do they have the balls to do that?

[Ensapa]

It does not mean that because you are Sakya, you cannot practise Dorje Shugden. Dorje Shugden will help you because he is an enlightened being but Zong Rinpoche has a point - playing pick and mix with our practices leads to no attainments (as I noticed Ive pointed out before, in my previous responses to this topic).

Let me put it to you another way. You go to university and assuming your administration lets you take courses from a few different degrees / departments, thats what you do. But unless your extremely accomplished, taking a few courses means youll graduate much later and itll take you longer to finish your degree. Why do you think doctors specialise in one field? That a brain surgeon doesnt try to be a heart surgeon, who doesnt try to advise on cancer or liver-related issues?

Or another example - if your a Methodist and you call out to the Lord for help, he is every bit as likely to help you as he will a Catholic. But on an everyday level, the manifestation of their practice is different.

So this is just a case of simple logic, and not at all sectarianism. When people accuse Dorje Shugden of being sectarian, actually they should level that "accusation" to ALL lamas since all of them encourage people to stick to the practices of one tradition...and do they have the balls to do that?

In fact, most people who accuse Dorje Shugden of being sectarian do not really know what sectarian means. Being sectarian basically means that you will only uphold your tradition and then you degrade the other traditions. I know the dictionary definition is slightly different, but the more social definition is more or less what I have posted. Does Dorje Shugden tell us the other tradition sare wrong and corrupted and we should not follow them? Does Dorje Shugden Lamas tell us the other 3 traditions will lead us to hell and that they are no longer applicable? If the answer to both is no then Dorje Shugden is not sectarian. Are people who go against Dorje Shugden sectarian? Do they say that only their way (the Dalai Lama's way) is correct and if you dont follow their way, you're wrong and evil? Yes? So now who is sectarian?

[WisdomBeing]

i was just reading the book "Oracles and Demons of Tibet" by Rene De Nebesky-Wojkowitz (Paljor Publications. July 1, 2002) and in the chapter on Nechung (Chapter XXII - The State Oracle), it is mentioned that at the Nechung Gompa, the southern gate is kept closed. This is "in accordance with an old tradition that the chos skyong rDo rje shuts ldan is waiting at this entrance for the day to come on which he will be allowed to enter the monastery, to succeed Pe har as the chief dharmapala of Tibet after the former has become a 'jig rten las 'das pa'i srung ma and has vacated the temple."

'jig rten las 'das pa'i srung ma means enlightened.

What i found interesting is that it is stated here that it has been predicted that Dorje Shugden will become the chief dharma protector of TIBET, not just of the Gelugpas. How can he be only applicable to Gelug if this is true?

[beggar]

This might be helpful reading also, to understand just how friendly and embracing all the different lineages were to each other prior to the ban on Dorje Shugden. The differences in sects were never an issue.

The autobiography of H.E. Choyang Duldzin Kuten Lama (an oracle of Dorje Shugden)
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/great-masters/recent-masters/autobiography-of-his-eminence-choyang-duldzin-kuten-lama/

Note these paragraphs in particular:

"But Phagri itself has many traditions and Dharmapala Dorje Shugden is protector to all families there, irrespective of their traditions."

"During my tenure as Secretary I worked very hard for obtaining the funds for the monks’ quarters, not only for Ganden but also for Drepung, and the Nyingma and Sakya monks as well"

These statements don't sound like something coming from a being (and the oracle that takes trance of such a being) who is sectarian. similar statements can also be found in the writings of Trijang Rinpoche - most definitely a prominent Gelug lama, but one who had also given initiations & teachings, and helped many thousands of Tibetans from other schools. The "issue" about sects and practices being exclusively for only one sect and not others  had never been an issue - until we made it one.