DS Practitioners Blessed with Conducive Conditions?

[michaela]

Dear Forum Reader

We are taught that the purpose of a protector is to help one persons to practice Dharma, by creating conducive conditions, providing their basic necessities to practice Dharma.  However, contradiction to this claim occured when looking at what happened with DS practitioners in India.  DS practitioners are expelled from their monasteries, laymen and lay women experienced discriminations and terorized.  Their lives were made difficult just because they practice DS. 

It does not seem that practicing DS for them actually have the  desired effect and creating the conducive conditions for them to practice Dharma.

I understand that it is said the ban actually made DS more famous than ever and actually this is the purpose of the ban.  However, it does not make sense to me that to make a protector famous, a group of people that are true to their faith should be sacrificed.

So by observing this condition, practicing DS for some people seems to have a contrary effect than what is desired.  What would be the explanation for this situation?

[kris]

These are my 2 cents... (may be wrong):

1. What seems to be suffering to us may not necessary suffering to others. For example, we live in a country where electricity and internet is always available and we think are are happy, and when we go to places like Nepal where electricity/internet are not easily available, we think they are "suffering". Actually, from a spiritual point of view, we have so much material things, so much facebook, is suffering.

2. How karma works, is that you cannot experience what you did not create. I am sure there are many Dorje Shugden practitioners around the world, but why some are "suffering" and some are not "suffering"? May be they have the karma to "suffer"?

Any other thoughts?

[beggar]

Suffering is subjective, no?

I have heard many accounts from people who have resided alongside DS practitioners or visited the monasteries, who have explained that although they are saddened by the ban, they are no less happy or devoted to their practice. In the form of the highest practitioner, it is said that they will embrace difficult situations as a blessing for it furthers and strengthens their practice even more. In fact, practitioners pray to be born into situations that are difficult because it will be through that suffering that they are able to inspire and help so many more people. This could be read as true in many cases - for it is by the unfortunate suffering of these people, that so, so, so many more people in the world are now hearing about DS and doing his practice. Those who are suffering for the sake of the practice to endure and grow create tremendous merit for themselves (knowingly or not) in their act of bringing DS and dharma to so many... so is it really suffering? In the long term and on a larger scale, probably not.

For most of us at this level, this may not be easy for us to understand. However, yes, as Kris has said, we all have various karmas that would ripen with or without the ban on DS. The people who are suffering as a result of the ban, would have had to suffer the ripening of that karma anyway in another time, or under a different context or situation.

In the context of DS however, their endurance of suffering and by not retaliating in any way, but continuing their practice for the sake upholding the practice for others in the future, the suffering can then result in the creation of merit - as explained above. The "negative karma" and "negative" circumstances in this case, could actually be a result of good karma because they are now in a situation where they are able to create, grow and sustain something that would reap immeasurable benefits for the world.  (after all, a situation is deemed "good" or "bad" according to what results we create from it - if we are able to bring great results, benefit to others through our own suffering experiences, then that suffering is a result of good karma; on the contrary, if we have had an easy life and because of that, become more greedy, complacent, selfish, then the easy life is a result of bad karma, for it leads us into worse and worse states). 

[Ensapa]

Dear Forum Reader

We are taught that the purpose of a protector is to help one persons to practice Dharma, by creating conducive conditions, providing their basic necessities to practice Dharma.  However, contradiction to this claim occured when looking at what happened with DS practitioners in India.  DS practitioners are expelled from their monasteries, laymen and lay women experienced discriminations and terorized.  Their lives were made difficult just because they practice DS. 

It does not seem that practicing DS for them actually have the  desired effect and creating the conducive conditions for them to practice Dharma.

I understand that it is said the ban actually made DS more famous than ever and actually this is the purpose of the ban.  However, it does not make sense to me that to make a protector famous, a group of people that are true to their faith should be sacrificed.

So by observing this condition, practicing DS for some people seems to have a contrary effect than what is desired.  What would be the explanation for this situation?

On the surface it may not appear to be conducive, but if you investigate further you will realize that it is conducive to develop their minds further. It helps train the perfection of determination that so many practitioners these days lack, and that alone will get them very far in their Dharma practice. It is the perfect condition to train to develop determination and to never give up on your Dharma practice. Dont you think so?

[triesa]

Dear Forum Reader

We are taught that the purpose of a protector is to help one persons to practice Dharma, by creating conducive conditions, providing their basic necessities to practice Dharma.  However, contradiction to this claim occured when looking at what happened with DS practitioners in India.  DS practitioners are expelled from their monasteries, laymen and lay women experienced discriminations and terorized.  Their lives were made difficult just because they practice DS. 

It does not seem that practicing DS for them actually have the  desired effect and creating the conducive conditions for them to practice Dharma.

I understand that it is said the ban actually made DS more famous than ever and actually this is the purpose of the ban.  However, it does not make sense to me that to make a protector famous, a group of people that are true to their faith should be sacrificed.

So by observing this condition, practicing DS for some people seems to have a contrary effect than what is desired.  What would be the explanation for this situation?

Buddhists explains things based on casue and effect, karma, because if it is not karma, what else can it be?

Some DS practitioners are suffering, some are not. Those who suffer, they have the karma to experience the pain as the environmental conditions favour the experience. If DS practice is bad and not condusive, then all DS practitioners should suffer, but that is not the fact.

Look at Geshe kelsang Gaytso, he is a hardcore DS practitioner, His centers are blossoming all over the world benefiting so many people. So his DS practice provides him with all the conditions he needs to spread lama Tsongkhapa teachings and DS lineage.

Also understanding the fact that one suffers, other benefits. It is like an equation, it is always balanced.  We buddhists always train ourselves to suffer for others, so that others can come into the blessing of DS practice easier and faster.

[michaela]

I agree, that for those practitioners with strong faith, the ban can actually create opportunities to create merits.  But we have forgotten to think of those middle scope or lower scope DS practitioners whose faith is relatively easy to shake whether they are Tibetan or not and those who are Buddhists but do not like to reason logically.   The ban is driving these practitioners further and further away from DS simply because Dalai Lama said that DS is a spirit. 

If DS is to be a universal protector, this group will be at disadvantage.   

[beggar]

I agree, that for those practitioners with strong faith, the ban can actually create opportunities to create merits.  But we have forgotten to think of those middle scope or lower scope DS practitioners whose faith is relatively easy to shake whether they are Tibetan or not and those who are Buddhists but do not like to reason logically.   The ban is driving these practitioners further and further away from DS simply because Dalai Lama said that DS is a spirit. 

If DS is to be a universal protector, this group will be at disadvantage.   

Yes, this is true that some of these practitioners may be "lost" in the "process". However, it is not that they are lost forever. Their initial connection with Dorje Shugden and practice of previous years will surely still have created merit and powerful imprints that can open again later for them to practice.

This is a little bit of sensitive to say, but sometimes is may be inevitable that a few be "sacrificed" just for this point of time for a larger reach and benefit to many, many more. For example, the Chinese Cultural revolution of the 1950s-60s resulted in few million Tibetans being tortured and killed... but from that, the Dalai Lama left Tibet, bringing with him the incredible lineages and teachings which he then started sharing with the world. From there, so many more millions of people all around the world have been able to start practicing and adopting the teachings into their own lives. Lamas have often said that the people who were "sacrificed" during that time of turmoil in Tibet are now back, practicing again in the midst of these new Dharma communities flourishing peacefully everywhere in the world. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

I think it's important not to look only at just this one life, as Dharma teachings encompass the many, many thousands of lives that we go through in a continuum, so a few people may "drop out" in this lifetime, but it does not mean they drop out of the practice forever. They are still somehow connected and the imprints and merit will definitely still be there, to be awakened at a future time when more of their delusions are purified and their imprints open again for deeper practice

[DharmaSpace]

There were some countries in the world that have many different unique ethnic identities among the population and in this case there is always the ruling race that is in power. And that particular race determines that their race has superior benefits from others, in terms housing, schooling benefits hence the race in power is much better off than the other races and the other races always have to work about 5-10 % to make up the difference in the disparity, they have to strive that much more.

But the race that works really hard end up much more robust, more determined and much more capable at facing difficulties than the ruling race as they had to face more adversity. Where else the ruling race became a race dependent on crutches. So who is really in a better position for the future?

[dondrup]

So by observing this condition, practicing DS for some people seems to have a contrary effect than what is desired.  What would be the explanation for this situation?

The nature of samsara is suffering.  The level of suffering that each and every DS (Dorje Shugden) practitioner experienced due to the ban also differs and is subjective.  For some the ban appears to bring tremendous amount of suffering whereas for others this adversity further strengthens their practice. 

Venerable Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is such a good example of a DS practitioner who has to abandon his Tibetan citizenship, country, monastery, and so on.  His sacrifice is unimaginable.  Alone he single-handedly founded the largest and growing Western DS group with many centres around the World today spreading the teachings of Lama Tsongkhapa and DS.  Another good example is the ex-Prime Minister of Tibetan Government in Exile, Samdong Rinpoche who has to ‘give up’ his DS practice publicly to serve HHDL (His Holiness Dalai Lama) for many years before his retirement from politics recently. How many actually realize the ‘suffering’ that Samdong Rinpoche Lama has to endure?

An enlightened Protector like DS will provide the necessary conditions for all sincere DS practitioners.  Conducive condition does not necessarily mean that our practice becomes easier, our environment and resource become better. It could mean the opposite. 

Lojong practitioners thrive on these adversities!  For the others DS practitioners who appear to be suffering from the ban, they should have complete faith in the Law of Cause and Effect.  Every single DS practitioner affected by the ban has to realize the truth and accept they are the cause of their own suffering. 

We collectively have created the cause for the ban to be imposed on DS and hence the sufferings!  HHDL who is Chenrezig and DS who is Manjushri cannot be wrong! HHDL and DS are working for the benefit of very sentient being. For the ban on DS to be lifted and suffering to be removed, every single DS practitioner has a responsibility to create the cause for it to happen.

[michaela]

Dear Beggar

Sacrificing a group of people for a "bigger" purpose is not in accordance with the spirit of Bodhichitta.  You stated that with the imprint of the previous DS practice, the more lay back DS practitioners who gave up DS practice due to the ban will have a chance to practice again in the future.  But these practitioners will also have the negative imprints of giving up DS practice that actually take them further away from DS in the future.

So I don't really agree with your point in here

[hope rainbow]

Dear Beggar

Sacrificing a group of people for a "bigger" purpose is not in accordance with the spirit of Bodhichitta.  You stated that with the imprint of the previous DS practice, the more lay back DS practitioners who gave up DS practice due to the ban will have a chance to practice again in the future.  But these practitioners will also have the negative imprints of giving up DS practice that actually take them further away from DS in the future.

So I don't really agree with your point in here

Samsara is a very difficult terrain to work from.
If my karma is to suffer this way or that way, I pray that I suffer for the sake of a larger spiritual picture that benefits many people immediately and eventually, this even if I do experience that in a future life (lives) during which I might not understand what is going on.

3 reasons for that:

1. If Chenrezig himself, or Dorje Shugden himself creates the causes for my practice to degenerate, it is karmically logical that I will eventually get these Holy beings to help me FULL FORCE to regain my grounds this life or next. I believe that.

2. The purification process of my negative karma will be much faster, and I may short-cut even a few life times!

3. The pain, tears and suffering experienced will generate merit, whether I know it when it happens or not.

So eventually I rather suffer ostracism in these circumstances rather than in worldly circumstances.

My thoughts on the matter.

[Zach]

Shugden practitoners are facing an unavoidable ripening of karma at this time, Protectors gaurd us against the severities of karma and help reduce the major effects of suffering. Practitoners may have been thrown out of their monasterys, ostracised by their friends or families and generally vilified in the exile community but things could frankly be much worse, If we have to endure such suffering now we will not have to endure it in the future such is the way of karma things like this cannot last forever, it gives us a great chance to put Dharma into practice and show others how to practice Dharma in the face of adversity I am reminded of JFK when he said " Pray not for easier lives, Pray to be stronger men" and this is what we shall take out of this situation as Dorje Shugden as our protector we can be assured that he protects the Dharma within our mind we may recieve good conditions such as more of our own monasterys opening and centre flourishing or even individual increase in good external circumstances but we have to remember this is Samsara and the good things do not last. Suffering is inevitable here and the only release is the practice of Dharma as has been said on this thread already Lojong practitoners thrive on difficult circumstances they are like peacocks whom can eat poisonous food and yet recieve only nourishment, We have to be the same way to endure that which is difficult and practice in accordence with Dharma.

[Zach]

Many people become confused with the Dalai lama's actions believing him to be chenrezig and him never to be wrong and his actions never harmful, Chenrezig is an enlightened being and does not harm sentient beings but rather helps them toward enlightenment, Dalai lama is not necessarily Chenrezig, His actions are not necessarily benefical all the time.

It is through people seeing the Dalai lama as infalible that they have come to this situation now, Without checking the Lamrim as is mentioned on the value of a spiritual teacher and what qualities they should possess people have chosen the Dalai lama as their spiritual guide without checking to see if his actions accord with the Bodhisattva ideal. Regardless the Dalai lama is still a kind mother and in no way an object of aversion his actions have created a great schism and almost destroyed the lineage of our spiritual guides, Even so we should still cherish him and pray specifically for his welfare we are practitoners of Dharma so even if we do not meet with good circumstances it is important to never lose sight of the fact that the people who harm us are also our best teachers.

[Mana]

Shugden practitoners are facing an unavoidable ripening of karma at this time, Protectors gaurd us against the severities of karma and help reduce the major effects of suffering. Practitoners may have been thrown out of their monasterys, ostracised by their friends or families and generally vilified in the exile community but things could frankly be much worse, If we have to endure such suffering now we will not have to endure it in the future such is the way of karma things like this cannot last forever, it gives us a great chance to put Dharma into practice and show others how to practice Dharma in the face of adversity I am reminded of JFK when he said " Pray not for easier lives, Pray to be stronger men" and this is what we shall take out of this situation as Dorje Shugden as our protector we can be assured that he protects the Dharma within our mind we may recieve good conditions such as more of our own monasterys opening and centre flourishing or even individual increase in good external circumstances but we have to remember this is Samsara and the good things do not last. Suffering is inevitable here and the only release is the practice of Dharma as has been said on this thread already Lojong practitoners thrive on difficult circumstances they are like peacocks whom can eat poisonous food and yet recieve only nourishment, We have to be the same way to endure that which is difficult and practice in accordence with Dharma.

Zach,
I applaud you. This is really well said. This is absolutely correct. If everyone thought like this, their spiritual practice would soar and reach it's zenith very fast.
It's not the circumstances we should pray to Shugden to change, but it is asking him to make the conditions suitable to develop the mind according to the Lojong teachings. All adversity and all conducive situations are not truly as they seem but how they are percieved by the mind. And how we react to it.

Thank you for your excellent contribution here.

Mana

[Big Uncle]

Many people become confused with the Dalai lama's actions believing him to be chenrezig and him never to be wrong and his actions never harmful, Chenrezig is an enlightened being and does not harm sentient beings but rather helps them toward enlightenment, Dalai lama is not necessarily Chenrezig, His actions are not necessarily benefical all the time.

It is through people seeing the Dalai lama as infalible that they have come to this situation now, Without checking the Lamrim as is mentioned on the value of a spiritual teacher and what qualities they should possess people have chosen the Dalai lama as their spiritual guide without checking to see if his actions accord with the Bodhisattva ideal. Regardless the Dalai lama is still a kind mother and in no way an object of aversion his actions have created a great schism and almost destroyed the lineage of our spiritual guides, Even so we should still cherish him and pray specifically for his welfare we are practitoners of Dharma so even if we do not meet with good circumstances it is important to never lose sight of the fact that the people who harm us are also our best teachers.

Zach,
If people didn't have the view of the Dalai Lama as Chenrezig, the country would have torn apart centuries ago by rivaling feudal kings. Even today, it was what kept the Tibetan monastics and people alive and working towards surviving and preservation of the Buddhadharma. However, what you said is true, if the people didn't have this much confidence in the Dalai Lama, the ban wouldn't have worked in today's world. Dorje Shugden remaining forever in obscurity as a strange Tibetan god, ineffective and probably just mythical for longer time.

I would even dare say that the ban might even be a 'hurdle' entrusted upon his loyalest followers as they could take Dorje Shugden and make it huge. Hence, there's always two sides to a coin and you did mention that the Dalai Lama is a kind mother. Sometimes, kind mothers enforces us to eat 'horrible' vegetables and make us do horrible, miserable homework so we would grow up successful and will be alright. When we were younger, we hated it and could think of nothing good of it but when we are all grown up, we have tears and sometimes regrets because we didn't realize our mother's intent, her kindness.