Nechung's Time Has Ended?

[michaela]

Dear Forum Reader
When watching this video, I couldn’t help but wonder:
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=7122
•   When a protector time is ended, what does it mean?  Does it also mean that Nechung is released from his oath to protect the Buddha Dharma?
•   If Nechung time has ended since the 13th Dalai Lama, why is he still being consulted by the 14th Dalai Lama?  Especially if his prediction has been wrong in the past and Dalai Lama is a Buddha, thus omnicient and should not have been affected by wrong predictions by unenlightened protectors.

[Big Uncle]

Hi Michaela,
What you raised is a very good question and its a wonder why the Dalai Lama still consults Nechung when he is so unreliable. I think it could also be because the basis of their relationship is not from the standpoint of consulting an enlightened Being for prophesies of the future but from the standpoint of a student serving his spiritual guide. Anyway, I am not really sure but his prophesies and so forth has been so unreliable of late and he seems to be against Dorje Shugden.

This is very strange because he was the one that requested Dorje Shugden's previous life, Duldzin Drakpa Gyltsen to make the promise that made him assume the form of Dorje Shugden. He also created the necessary circumstances for the assassination to take place during the lifetime of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen so he could eventually assume the form of Dorje Shugden. Then finally, he would even give him his name as 'Dorje Shugden Tsel'. His inaccurate prophesies of recent years is a major departure from his supporting role and it could be his collaboration with the Dalai Lama.

After all, he is said to be on the verge of enlightenment and when that finally happens, he will be relieved of his responsibility as the main Dharma Protector and Dorje Shugden would fill his place.

[beggar]

Dear Forum Reader
When watching this video, I couldn’t help but wonder:
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=7122
•   When a protector time is ended, what does it mean?  Does it also mean that Nechung is released from his oath to protect the Buddha Dharma?

Michaela, it will be useful for you to read this article "Changing of the Guardians" to understand more about what it means for a protector's time to "end": http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=143

To say that a protector's time is ending does not literally mean that he will "end". In the case of unenlightened protectors like Nechung, it means that his service as an oath-bound, unenlightened protector will be ending soon, as he will soon attain full enlightenment.

Also, it is not to be confused with the idea that he will no longer help sentient beings once his time has "ended". When he attains enlightenment, of course he will continue to help and benefit all sentient beings. This is what enlightened beings do! However, it also refers to the fact that different Dharma protectors arise at different periods of time for the sake of the changing needs and mindsets of sentient beings at the time. Dorje Shugden arose recently as a protector of our time, which is to fulfil the particular needs and propensities of practitioners now. It does not mean that one protector is "better" than another, but that they are karmically closer to us, and have arisen in specific forms with specific practices that correspond to what we need at different time periods and places. It is in this way that their practices are more effective for us at each time.

[michaela]

Dear Beggar and Big Uncle

thank you for the insightful response to my query.  I have read the article recommended by Beggar - it is very good.

Hopefully, I will understand better as I move on to watch more videos and read more articles from this website.

[beggar]

Hopefully, I will understand better as I move on to watch more videos and read more articles from this website.

Michaela,
great to see you here, reading, participating and asking questions. more questions! We like questions! Sometimes, we take for granted what people may know or not know and may get carried away with far too much terminology. So please do ask if you don't understand. that's the best way to learn.

May i also recommend the video section - there are loads of really good videos there with background information to the practice of DS as well as the unfortunate political situation. Just watch them with an open mind - it is not about taking sides or trying to point fingers or blame, but about gaining more information and knowledge about what's been going on.

May I also recommend some more information about nechung here:
Video:  "Spirits in Dharamsala": http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=3938
Article: "Nechung": http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=5609
Article: general article about dharma protectors: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=5605

Happy DS surfing!

[Ensapa]

If I remember correctly, Nechung's time has ended means that Nechung is no longer relevant to our time, meaning that all his advice and all his prophecies will start to become inaccurate or will not come true at all. Nechung has never been accurate ever since the death of the 13th Dalai Lama up till now, where in every single trance session, he would say that Tibet would be free soon, or next year, or something along those lines, but it never happened. The most recent prediction was that disaster will hit Dharamsala at the end of this year. It's already december but...hmmm?

[kris]

Thank you beggar for very detail explanation about the "time" about the protector. All the explanation makes a lot of sense.

I have one question though.. I was told by many people that Dorje Shugden is very fast and quick, because He is suited for this era which is desirous. I was wonder, for enlightened Dharma protectors, such as Setrab and all, since they are fully enlightened, why can't they "act" like Dorje Shugden and guide us the same way?

Anyone can explain a bit?

[Big Uncle]

If I remember correctly, Nechung's time has ended means that Nechung is no longer relevant to our time, meaning that all his advice and all his prophecies will start to become inaccurate or will not come true at all. Nechung has never been accurate ever since the death of the 13th Dalai Lama up till now, where in every single trance session, he would say that Tibet would be free soon, or next year, or something along those lines, but it never happened. The most recent prediction was that disaster will hit Dharamsala at the end of this year. It's already december but...hmmm?

I totally agree with you. I think Nechung's time is way over and its time to move on with the times. I wonder how would the transition be like for Dorje Shugden to take over. Would the Dalai Lama be the one recognizing Dorje Shugden's qualities finally like it was during the Great Fifth Dalai Lama's period?

Somehow, I think we are at the threshold of something really big, especially since Chotrul Trijang Rinpoche has started to teach again and I feel he would be instrumental in installing Dorje Shugden as the successor to Nechung. The prophecy of the changing of the guardians cannot be wrong because there must be a basis to such prophecies...

[dsiluvu]

Michaela, it will be useful for you to read this article "Changing of the Guardians" to understand more about what it means for a protector's time to "end": http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=143

To say that a protector's time is ending does not literally mean that he will "end". In the case of unenlightened protectors like Nechung, it means that his service as an oath-bound, unenlightened protector will be ending soon, as he will soon attain full enlightenment.

Also, it is not to be confused with the idea that he will no longer help sentient beings once his time has "ended". When he attains enlightenment, of course he will continue to help and benefit all sentient beings. This is what enlightened beings do! However, it also refers to the fact that different Dharma protectors arise at different periods of time for the sake of the changing needs and mindsets of sentient beings at the time. Dorje Shugden arose recently as a protector of our time, which is to fulfil the particular needs and propensities of practitioners now. It does not mean that one protector is "better" than another, but that they are karmically closer to us, and have arisen in specific forms with specific practices that correspond to what we need at different time periods and places. It is in this way that their practices are more effective for us at each time.

Thanks beggar for your concise yet clear answer to michaela query... I absolutely agree about different Buddhas/protectors arsing at different times to suit the times and situation of the people at that moment. They will be much more efficacious in helping us during that and is deem "closer" to us hence their help would be much swifter!

BUt yeah like what Big Uncle said... what is with all this wrong prophesies??? Is it deliberate I wonder so that the Tibetan Govt/people stop believing in Nechug's and stop all the questions already. With so many mistakes... surely people will start questioning why and basically stop relying on him. Definitely HHDL do not even need to ask Nechung... it is all a play for the students and audience always... making way for Lord Dorje Shugden....

...his prophesies and so forth has been so unreliable of late and he seems to be against Dorje Shugden.

This is very strange because he was the one that requested Dorje Shugden's previous life, Duldzin Drakpa Gyltsen to make the promise that made him assume the form of Dorje Shugden.

He also created the necessary circumstances for the assassination to take place during the lifetime of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen so he could eventually assume the form of Dorje Shugden. Then finally, he would even give him his name as 'Dorje Shugden Tsel'. His inaccurate prophesies of recent years is a major departure from his supporting role and it could be his collaboration with the Dalai Lama.

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[vajratruth]

I wonder if I may ask a somewhat silly question? If Nechung's time has ended, what is stopping Nechung from moving on to the enlightenment that he has earned after such a long service? Does Nechung have to be officially "released" by the Dalai Lama or what is the procedure to select a new State Oracle and protector for the Dalai Lama? From all accounts, it is clear that the time of Nechung's efficacy has long passed and his prophecies and advices have been proven wrong (whether done on purpose by Nechung or not, we don't know), so why this reluctance to let him go?

Nechung's role to spread news about Dorje Shugden has been tremendous and even the push for the ban (which is actually the push to make Dorje Shugden's name even more well known) by the Tibetan exiled government was in fact motivated by Nechung also. In 1996, when the Tibetan government passed a resolution demanding that “in essence government departments, organizations, associations, monasteries and their branches under the direction of the exile Tibetan government should abide by the ban against worship of Dhogyal”, they attracted unwanted attention from the media worldwide and were subsequently criticized severely for not handling the matter more delicately. After sitting for three days and not knowing how else to handle the controversy (very typical of the CTA), and not being able to decide the proper course of action for themselves...they turned to the Nechung oracle for instructions and of course Nechung manifested as an embittered opponent of Dorje Shugden. The rest is history.

[Ensapa]

I wonder if I may ask a somewhat silly question? If Nechung's time has ended, what is stopping Nechung from moving on to the enlightenment that he has earned after such a long service? Does Nechung have to be officially "released" by the Dalai Lama or what is the procedure to select a new State Oracle and protector for the Dalai Lama? From all accounts, it is clear that the time of Nechung's efficacy has long passed and his prophecies and advices have been proven wrong (whether done on purpose by Nechung or not, we don't know), so why this reluctance to let him go?

Nechung's role to spread news about Dorje Shugden has been tremendous and even the push for the ban (which is actually the push to make Dorje Shugden's name even more well known) by the Tibetan exiled government was in fact motivated by Nechung also. In 1996, when the Tibetan government passed a resolution demanding that “in essence government departments, organizations, associations, monasteries and their branches under the direction of the exile Tibetan government should abide by the ban against worship of Dhogyal”, they attracted unwanted attention from the media worldwide and were subsequently criticized severely for not handling the matter more delicately. After sitting for three days and not knowing how else to handle the controversy (very typical of the CTA), and not being able to decide the proper course of action for themselves...they turned to the Nechung oracle for instructions and of course Nechung manifested as an embittered opponent of Dorje Shugden. The rest is history.

the Tibetan government will never regain Tibet at this rate because they cant even prove themselves to be a proper government in Dharamsala alone. If they have to rely on a spirit and the Dalai Lama after 50 years of being exposed to the real world, it means that they have never grown up at all and has no initiative to actually  do something or accomplish something. I find such attitudes disturbing in more ways than one. Nechung's affinity with them has already ended, thus resulting in inaccurate answers but they still depend on him like how a child needs a mother's milk....how shameful...because they do not have a choice as they never stood up for what they want.

[shugdenpromoter]

Nechung's role to spread news about Dorje Shugden has been tremendous and even the push for the ban (which is actually the push to make Dorje Shugden's name even more well known) by the Tibetan exiled government was in fact motivated by Nechung also. In 1996, when the Tibetan government passed a resolution demanding that “in essence government departments, organizations, associations, monasteries and their branches under the direction of the exile Tibetan government should abide by the ban against worship of Dhogyal”, they attracted unwanted attention from the media worldwide and were subsequently criticized severely for not handling the matter more delicately. After sitting for three days and not knowing how else to handle the controversy (very typical of the CTA), and not being able to decide the proper course of action for themselves...they turned to the Nechung oracle for instructions and of course Nechung manifested as an embittered opponent of Dorje Shugden. The rest is history.

Great comment Ensapa. It is true that the Tibetan Government until today have to still rely on HH and other great lamas including Nechung. Come to thinks about it, I have never heard great Tibetan lay official and what they have contributed to the government or their people. None. This is bad as the lay people are still relying very heavily on HH and also in this case Nechung to run their country. And if these 2 moves on, I wonder what will happen to the government and the Tibetans

the Tibetan government will never regain Tibet at this rate because they cant even prove themselves to be a proper government in Dharamsala alone. If they have to rely on a spirit and the Dalai Lama after 50 years of being exposed to the real world, it means that they have never grown up at all and has no initiative to actually  do something or accomplish something. I find such attitudes disturbing in more ways than one. Nechung's affinity with them has already ended, thus resulting in inaccurate answers but they still depend on him like how a child needs a mother's milk....how shameful...because they do not have a choice as they never stood up for what they want.
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[Ensapa]

Great comment Ensapa. It is true that the Tibetan Government until today have to still rely on HH and other great lamas including Nechung. Come to thinks about it, I have never heard great Tibetan lay official and what they have contributed to the government or their people. None. This is bad as the lay people are still relying very heavily on HH and also in this case Nechung to run their country. And if these 2 moves on, I wonder what will happen to the government and the Tibetans

the Tibetan government will never regain Tibet at this rate because they cant even prove themselves to be a proper government in Dharamsala alone. If they have to rely on a spirit and the Dalai Lama after 50 years of being exposed to the real world, it means that they have never grown up at all and has no initiative to actually  do something or accomplish something. I find such attitudes disturbing in more ways than one. Nechung's affinity with them has already ended, thus resulting in inaccurate answers but they still depend on him like how a child needs a mother's milk....how shameful...because they do not have a choice as they never stood up for what they want.

Thank you shugdenpromoter for the kind comment. Yes, you're right. the lay people of CTA could have done so  much more to improve their situation but yet they choose to self immolate and enact the ban on Dorje Shugden, hoping for a shortcut to achieve the means to their end. But there is no substitute to real work and hard work, not even relying on the Dalai Lama can get them out of their own predicament if they do not actually do what they need to do. To me, over-reliance on the Dalai Lama, enacting the ban on Dorje Shugden and the self immolations show nothing more than the Tibetans' wish to find a shortcut to regaining independence instead of actually working for it, and therefore its a lost cause.

[dsiluvu]

I wonder if I may ask a somewhat silly question? If Nechung's time has ended, what is stopping Nechung from moving on to the enlightenment that he has earned after such a long service? Does Nechung have to be officially "released" by the Dalai Lama or what is the procedure to select a new State Oracle and protector for the Dalai Lama? From all accounts, it is clear that the time of Nechung's efficacy has long passed and his prophecies and advices have been proven wrong (whether done on purpose by Nechung or not, we don't know), so why this reluctance to let him go?

Nechung's role to spread news about Dorje Shugden has been tremendous and even the push for the ban (which is actually the push to make Dorje Shugden's name even more well known) by the Tibetan exiled government was in fact motivated by Nechung also. In 1996, when the Tibetan government passed a resolution demanding that “in essence government departments, organizations, associations, monasteries and their branches under the direction of the exile Tibetan government should abide by the ban against worship of Dhogyal”, they attracted unwanted attention from the media worldwide and were subsequently criticized severely for not handling the matter more delicately. After sitting for three days and not knowing how else to handle the controversy (very typical of the CTA), and not being able to decide the proper course of action for themselves...they turned to the Nechung oracle for instructions and of course Nechung manifested as an embittered opponent of Dorje Shugden. The rest is history.

[dsiluvu]

I wonder if I may ask a somewhat silly question? If Nechung's time has ended, what is stopping Nechung from moving on to the enlightenment that he has earned after such a long service? Does Nechung have to be officially "released" by the Dalai Lama or what is the procedure to select a new State Oracle and protector for the Dalai Lama? From all accounts, it is clear that the time of Nechung's efficacy has long passed and his prophecies and advices have been proven wrong (whether done on purpose by Nechung or not, we don't know), so why this reluctance to let him go?

Nechung's role to spread news about Dorje Shugden has been tremendous and even the push for the ban (which is actually the push to make Dorje Shugden's name even more well known) by the Tibetan exiled government was in fact motivated by Nechung also. In 1996, when the Tibetan government passed a resolution demanding that “in essence government departments, organizations, associations, monasteries and their branches under the direction of the exile Tibetan government should abide by the ban against worship of Dhogyal”, they attracted unwanted attention from the media worldwide and were subsequently criticized severely for not handling the matter more delicately. After sitting for three days and not knowing how else to handle the controversy (very typical of the CTA), and not being able to decide the proper course of action for themselves...they turned to the Nechung oracle for instructions and of course Nechung manifested as an embittered opponent of Dorje Shugden. The rest is history.

You have brought up very good questions Vajratruth. I think his time is coming to an end soon... perhaps when His Holiness passes? I cannot imagine how CTA will operate then without His Holiness, perhaps they will use Karmapa to be the next iconic source of inspiration... however there are 3 Karmapas, the one that is supported by HHDL and the one that is not. So this internal conflict itself is very confusing...

As for Nechung's dismissal of duty I think it will be a gradual one after HHDL passes and His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche becomes more and more popular. When that happens I am sure oracles of DOrje Shugden will also start appearing and start to give advices and prophesies which will be helpful and beneficial to many and from this people will then start to come and look for DOrje Shugden oracles to help them. When they get their results, word of mouth as we know will spread like wild fire! When this happens... I think we can kinda guess what's next.

People from all over the globe will start looking for Dorje Shugden... this will be so powerful that it will over shadow Nechung and the need to seek his advise will become less. May be the only people going to him stuburnly at that time will be CTA and well, and Nechung perhaps will continue to give wrong advices purposely so he can take a break and let Dorje Shugden take over? Perhaps this is why Nechung keeps giving wrong prophesies hehe.... to start us talking, so our faith grows more in Dorje Shugden... we never know how these powerful beings work but one thing is for sure, HHDL would not continue to listen to someone who keeps making mistakes unless it is all the great big scheme of things... to ursher in DOrje Shugden back indirectly? Well this is my take of it