Author Topic: Is Dorje Shugden a Spirit??  (Read 25565 times)

michaela

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Is Dorje Shugden a Spirit??
« on: January 23, 2012, 04:25:27 PM »
Dear Forum Reader

Is debate on the topic whether Dorje Shugden is a spirit allowed in monasteries that "officially claim" that they do not practice DS such as Gaden Shartse, Sera, etc.  The reason for this question is I think if this debate is allowed, the whole logical reason and foundation under the monasteries' decision to follow the ban will fall and easily refuted due to the following:

The arguments that are often raised to defend that DS is a spirit is that the fact that Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen was murdered.  And therefore, he became a spirit.

This claim is easily refuted due to the followings among other reasons:
-  DS raised from a holy enlightened beings
-  This enlightened being actually chose to be killed
-  No practice to subdue DS with the assumption that he is a spirit has ever prevailed.

I don't see any angle or logical reason that can support that DS is a spirit.  Have the monasteries mentioned above ever debate about this topic?  If so, what is their conclusion?

beggar

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Re: Is Dorje Shugden a Spirit??
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2012, 05:20:53 PM »
Michaela,

That is precisely where the conundrum and difficulty is. When the ban first arose, the many, many monks of the monasteries held debates on the "logic" of the reasoning of the ban. There are many countless refutations for the many claims that were being made by Dalai Lama and his people about Dorje Shugden being a spirit, being harmful to the DL's life, being dangerous to the cause of Tibet (I'll outline these more in detail below). The problem was that none of the arguments and reasons put forth by the Dalai Lama correlated in any way with what is taught at the most basic and fundamental level of Buddhist teachings.

Unfortunately, while the many monasteries - Gaden, Sera, Drepung, the tantric colleges etc - all know that the reasons are untrue, irrational and illogical, the issue has gone far beyond just a spiritual debate. The situation is that the monasteries are very much bound by the politics of the Tibetan exile community. Failure to comply by the ban will result in monks being ex-communicated from their monasteries and totally cut off from their community, from welfare or any association with other Tibetans. This can affect people from the simplest young monk, to the most senior abbots and abbots emeritus throughout the monasteries. A failure to comply is anything related to Dorje Shugden - from not acting in accordance with the ban in any way to associating with, or accepting sponsorship from a known DS practitioner. If a monk doesn't attend the Dalai Lama's teachings over a period of time or is not publically seen in Dalai Lama events, even this becomes a cause for suspicion; an exact instance of this resulted in a highly respected previous abbot of Gaden Jangtse being removed from the monastery overnight.

So you see, it is not that the monasteries agree with the ban or that they do not understand the logic of DS not being a spirit etc. Their hands are tied and they are very much bound to the political restrictions imposed on them from above. For many of them, they have no other recourse; if they are kicked out of their monasteries, they have no one to help them and some are simply just too old to be out on their own with no finances or physical support

beggar

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Re: Is Dorje Shugden a Spirit??
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2012, 05:32:55 PM »
Btw, read the story about the Gaden Jangtse abbot emeritus being expelled here. Do read the whole thread and see what is going on in the monasteries.

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1068.0

michaela

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Re: Is Dorje Shugden a Spirit??
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2012, 04:04:04 PM »
Dear Beggar

I have read the forum thread on the abbot of Gaden Jangtse being expelled.  Thank you very much as it definitely gave me a new insight of the whole situation.

But back to my question, is the debate on whether DS is a spirit allowed in the "non DS" monasteries?  I mean the whole reasons for bringing up this question at all is monasteries are the institute of Buddhist studies and Buddhist studies have been based on logical reasoning since the very beginning.  If the claim that DS is a spirit cannot be upheld and significantly defended, there will be no reason for these monasteries to comply with the ban.  If the majority of the monasteries could not defend claim that DS is a spirit and actually ignore the ban because they are being true to their Buddhist root and Buddhist tradition that everything should be based on logical reasoning, the ban, will be lifted much faster and DS practitioners would no longer have to suffer the discrimination.

WisdomBeing

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Re: Is Dorje Shugden a Spirit??
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2012, 03:03:58 AM »
I am sure that this topic is not allowed in any non-DS monasteries. I heard that The 13th Kundeling Tatsak Rinpoche (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=2119) has been asking HH the Dalai Lama for a ‘discussion’ (not even a debate) about the issue of the ban for years and the Dalai Lama has refused to engage with him on it.

Personally I find it strange that the Dalai Lama will not engage in a public discussion about this issue which he is obviously so passionate and adamant about. Surely a public discussion would immediately put to rest any questions people have about this issue. I would dearly love to watch this discussion if it were to ever happen!

In the meantime, do read Kundeling Rinpoche’s Answers to Questions Posed Recently by Interested Agencies
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=3113
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Big Uncle

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Re: Is Dorje Shugden a Spirit??
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2012, 04:29:38 AM »
Actually, I am quite curious about this thread as I have my own views that are perhaps different from anyone else. I have been told that Dorje Shugden is an 'enlightened' protector in a worldly form. So what worldly form does he belong to, considering the 6 worldly realms he could have taken rebirth in. I have been told that Dorje Shugden took rebirth in the God or demi-god realm. However, considering the cause of his death, which is 'anger' or in his case, vajra anger, I would surmise that he took rebirth in the spirit realm.

I know the stigma attached to this theory and people would be quick to refute this. However, I would like to put forth this notion anyway because why does everyone have to think that being a spirit means that he must be evil? Anyone who has worked with the paranormal knows that spirits are like people, in which they can be evil, benevolent or just indifferent. Hence, I think Dorje Shugden took rebirth as a spirit to uphold his promise to protect the teachings. That doesn't mean he is not Manjushri and I think being a powerful spirit that he is, he has even more freedom and a sort of karmic connection to our world that he could do much more and he IS doing much more.

On the other hand, there's this other possibility that he took rebirth as a demi-god. If I remember correctly, the realm of the demi-god is in constant strive with the powerful gods. Driven by jealousy and desire, they take great pains to equalize themselves with the powerful gods. I don't take this in the literal sense but the strength and determination to protect the teachings as encapsulated by the promise of Duldzin could have propelled him to such a rebirth. Once again, that doesn't mean he is at war with the the Gods or in this case, the Dalai Lama but in constant strife to protect practitioners and heirs of Lama Tsongkhapa's tradition. He is Manjushri and he works like a great strategist and generalissimo of Lama Tsongkhapa.

Zach

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Re: Is Dorje Shugden a Spirit??
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2012, 12:48:41 PM »
I am sure that this topic is not allowed in any non-DS monasteries. I heard that The 13th Kundeling Tatsak Rinpoche (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=2119) has been asking HH the Dalai Lama for a ‘discussion’ (not even a debate) about the issue of the ban for years and the Dalai Lama has refused to engage with him on it.

Personally I find it strange that the Dalai Lama will not engage in a public discussion about this issue which he is obviously so passionate and adamant about. Surely a public discussion would immediately put to rest any questions people have about this issue. I would dearly love to watch this discussion if it were to ever happen!

In the meantime, do read Kundeling Rinpoche’s Answers to Questions Posed Recently by Interested Agencies
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=3113


We all know HHDL's reasoning is illogical and illfounded he would loose if he where to debate...Big style.

beggar

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Re: Is Dorje Shugden a Spirit??
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2012, 03:36:53 PM »
Dear Beggar

I have read the forum thread on the abbot of Gaden Jangtse being expelled.  Thank you very much as it definitely gave me a new insight of the whole situation.

But back to my question, is the debate on whether DS is a spirit allowed in the "non DS" monasteries?  I mean the whole reasons for bringing up this question at all is monasteries are the institute of Buddhist studies and Buddhist studies have been based on logical reasoning since the very beginning.  If the claim that DS is a spirit cannot be upheld and significantly defended, there will be no reason for these monasteries to comply with the ban.  If the majority of the monasteries could not defend claim that DS is a spirit and actually ignore the ban because they are being true to their Buddhist root and Buddhist tradition that everything should be based on logical reasoning, the ban, will be lifted much faster and DS practitioners would no longer have to suffer the discrimination.

No, I don't think discussion and debate is allowed in non DS monasteries. If it had been, there would already have been debate, discussion and dialogue a long time ago. The questions that we have all been asking in this forum have already all been asked by the monks of the monastery. I have heard that IN THE EARLY DAYS, when the Dalai Lama FIRST talked about DS not being a good practice / being a spirit etc, the monks did debate this among themselves but could not come to any logical understanding of this statement.

However, the ban worsened, as we know, and questioning the statements that have been put forward or suggesting in any way that they do not acknowledge DS as evil and do not wish to denounce the practice, would put the monks under a large amount of scrutiny and even risk them expulsion.

In terms of Dharma and logic, all monks know that the logic put forward is not logical. There are great debate scholars throughout the monasteries who would be able to show clearly why the statements about DS-as-spirit are unfounded and illogical, but there is no platform at all for them to debate this.

.... So all the more, WE SHOULD. Through this forum and elsewhere, we speak and say all that the monks are unable to in their restricted communities.

Ensapa

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Re: Is Dorje Shugden a Spirit??
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2012, 04:45:19 AM »
Dorje Shugden being a spirit is just nothing more than a very weak reason to ban the practice for whatever reason the Dalai Lama wants its practice to be stopped. It is very clear from what has been pointed out in many other texts that Dorje Shugden is indeed a Buddha. The parts quoted from the biography was obviously BEFORE the great 5th realized that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha and even composed prayers to try to destroy him.

Another point that became a main reason to why Dorje Shugden was banned was because Nechung made negative comments against Dorje Shugden, that he was unhappy that Dorje Shugden was being practiced in monasteries and so on. What is strange is, nechung's predictions have started to become inaccurate since 1959 until now and he is still a worldly spirit bound by Guru Rinpoche. And he is also the one who asked Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen to manifest as a Dharma protector and now he is going against him? Dosent make sense to me at all.

the following quote was part of a letter written to Pabongkha Rinpoche from the 13th Dalai Lama urging Pabongkha to stop practicing Dorje Shugden.

From HHDL's website
Quote
The Great Nechung Choegyal who from the very beginning was commanded and entrusted to protect and guard this monastery, expressed his displeasure to the Drepung Lachi several times, saying that (due to propitiating Dolgyal) the degeneration of the Buddha dharma had been speeded up. This is the source of his displeasure

If nechung is right, how can he be wrong about Tibetan independence and losing tibet to china? Is he still trustworthy? If he is not and has been wrong for so many times, why are they still going to him for refuge?

If Shugden is not enlightened, why is this whole website still up? wouldnt the other Dharma protectors have shut it down by now? Why do monasteries and centers who practice him flourish and grow exponentially? Why would Shar Ganden and Serpom still flourish and why do so many great masters who still practice him grow and new masters continue to develop? If he really was a spirit, all of these wont be possible. Unless all the other Dharma protectors do not exist or that the Buddha is wrong about spirits.




vajrastorm

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Re: Is Dorje Shugden a Spirit??
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2012, 09:26:20 AM »
Regarding BU's theory or proposition that the worldly form that Dorje Shugden took may be that of a being of a spirit realm, I disagree, even though in the Lamrim, it is stated that Enlightened Beings may reincarnate as beings of the lower realms if it is of benefit to sentient beings.

First of all, Trijang Rinpoche, in his great classic, "Music Delighting An Ocean of Protectors", has said that if Dorje Shugden were an ordinary being of the Preta Ream, he would have been subjugated by the Fifth Dalai Lama, himself a great Holy and attained Being, and brought under his compassionate control (to become perhaps an unenlightened Protector).

Secondly, when we propitiate Dorje Shugden, we request Him to come from under Je Tsongkapa's throne in Tushita heaven, where he and His entourage reside.

Thirdly, if we study His form and iconography(especially with His dome- shaped hat and His monk's robes), He could not possibly be a being of the preta realm.

Finally, I doubt that if worldly beings of this degenerate age with our conceptual dualistic mind are told that he is a being of the preta realm ( albeit an emanation of a Buddha), we are able to accept it and be convinced that he is a Buddha in such a worldly form.

Amitabha

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Re: Is Dorje Shugden a Spirit??
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2012, 11:40:37 AM »
According to my reading, dorje shugden is the dharma protector that is same as Mahayana buddhism “weituo“ bodhisavatta, the dharma protector who is the last final 1000 buddha to be. It depends on the teaching whether is it in line to no self or buddhahood of living beings in line with buddha shakamuni teaching. 8)

Amitabha

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Re: Is Dorje Shugden a Spirit??
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2012, 11:51:58 AM »
More importantly is to develop the wisdom of living beings and if the ordained sangha is in line with liberation of buddha dharma, the ban is not justified. it is not so much about chapel of dorje but the sangha and its teaching. according scripture, when there is controversy araises, one should not base on the person but on dharma, and metta towards living beings. As without opportunity for living beings to be in contact with dharma, they have no opportunity to develop their innate wisdom. ;D

Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: Is Dorje Shugden a Spirit??
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2012, 01:10:31 PM »
... I have my own views that are perhaps different from anyone else. I have been told that Dorje Shugden is an 'enlightened' protector in a worldly form. So what worldly form does he belong to, considering the 6 worldly realms he could have taken rebirth in. I have been told that Dorje Shugden took rebirth in the God or demi-god realm. However, considering the cause of his death, which is 'anger' or in his case, vajra anger, I would surmise that he took rebirth in the spirit realm.

I know the stigma attached to this theory and people would be quick to refute this. However, I would like to put forth this notion anyway because why does everyone have to think that being a spirit means that he must be evil? ...

The term "spirit" is a bit vague.

I guess Big Uncle means "preta", or a "hungry ghost", as that is one of the realms of samsara. Nevertheless, those born into that kind of form, need attachement, grasping, greed, hunger, thirst, and so forth. If anger, hatred, malice, ill will, and so forth, is the main cause of the form of the next rebirth, one would end up in hell as a hell being, not in the hungry spirit world as a ghost.

The form of DS, as protectors' in general, is basically a from of yaksha, who are typically classified as beings of the "ashura" realm, or the "demi-god" realm. For example, the protective assistant of Buddha, Vajrapani, is called a yaksha in the classical Pali sources. Of course, ashuras could be called spirits as well, since they do not have bodies of flesh, but are more, um, spirity, so to speak, just as are gods.

It would be better if people would avoid the term "spirit", as it is too general category, meaning "unembodied being" or "being without gross physical form", which strictly taken means inhabitants of 4 realms out of the six realms of samsara (humans and animals being non-spirits). The Christian God is a spirit too, as one of his personages is the "Holy Ghost".   8)  So, if someone says that DS is a spirit or is not a spirit, one cannot be certain what is said. Please everyone, use accurate terminology that conforms to the "six realms theory" and all it's subsets of beings.

One could have a debate whether DS is a holy being who has taken the form of a yaksha, or whether he is a mere yaksha, but there is nothing to debate on the issue whether DS is a spirit or not, as it is obvious that he is one, just like all the other protectors.

michaela

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Re: Is Dorje Shugden a Spirit??
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2012, 04:28:36 PM »
This discussion thread has become very interesting  ;D.  Perhaps instead of suggesting, pleading or forcing  HHDL to lift the ban, we should instead requested an open debate about the subject whether DS is really an enlightened protector and remove all doubts that have been spreading around. 

I love HHDL and have read some of his books.  I am impressed by his level of intelligence.  I am sure he put the ban in place for a bigger purpose.  One of HHDL books that that really caught me is "Destructive Emotion:  A Scientific Dialoque with the Dalai Lama."  He invited several well known scientists to discuss about the said topic.  One thing that impressed me the most is he said (not in his exact words), if (i suppose in the topic of discussion or debate) science wins against Buddhist Philosophy, than Buddhist Philosophy has to change.  At the time, I was thinking in awe what a being with an open mind.  This kind of attitude is the very quality that attracted me to Buddhism in the first place.  Just the same with Tsongkhapa's work Lam Rim Chen Mo.  He was very clear and examined the matter from all angles.   

I agree with Big Uncle, DS can manifest as a spirit because he is fully in control.  He can manifest in any form that he wishes to benefit others, because he is in control not by the force of throwing karma. 

So ya, it may be true that if we are worshiping DS when he manifests as a spirit, we are worshiping a spirit.  But the point is not really the form that we are worshiping.  We are worshiping an enlightened mind that can guide us to the enlightened itself because he already obtained those state.


Ensapa

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Re: Is Dorje Shugden a Spirit??
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2012, 03:11:47 AM »
Hi, I have prepared a longer and more extensive reasoning.


Is Dorje Shugden a demon or a Buddha?

There are many who argue about the state of Dorje Shugden. Traditionalists, consisting of high lamas who received the practice from their masters consider Dorje Shugden an enlightened being, a Buddha on the basis that some of the most eminent Buddhist teachers of the century practice them, and also on the past reincarnations of Dorje Shugden, who comes from a long line of enlightened and erudite masters. On the other side of the camp are the Dalai Lama and his supporters, who claim that Dorje Shugden is nothing but a ghost, based on the circumstances of how Dorje Shugden came up on, his prayers, and his history based on the 5th Dalai Lama’s biography.

To explain this topic, we must first also discuss about the origins of Dorje Shugden. Dorje Shugden’s line of incarnations as explained by many enlightened masters, starts off with Virupa. Virupa is one of the enlightened Mahasiddhas of Buddhism. He was a monk in Atisha’s monastery, Vikramshila who has achieved spectacular tantric abilities to the point of having Yidams appearing to him directly. His subsequent incarnations were all of high caliber from this point forward. He was Sakya Pandita, one of the 5 founders of the Sakya tradition, Buton Rinpoche who compiled the Tibetan Buddhist Cannon, Kangyur and Tengyur before reincarnating as Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen, who built and funded Ganden Monastery, and subsequently incarnated as Panchen Sonam Dragpa who composed most of the study material for the monks, which are still being used today. The last incarnation was a very famous monk by the name of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen.

Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen was a contemporary of the 5th Dalai Lama. He is also a candidate for the Dalai Lama’s title when he was first discovered. He was immensely popular during his time, until his fame and property eclipsed those of the 5th Dalai Lama. When this happened, the attendants of the 5th Dalai Lama killed Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, who arose as Dorje Shugden. The 5th Dalai Lama, who thought he was an evil spirit as many unfortunate events happened during that time attempted to exorcize him with the highest lamas of that time. Every single one of the highly effective rituals failed to destroy Dorje Shugden, and this made the 5th Dalai Lama realize that Dorje Shugden is not an evil spirit but an enlightened Dharma protector. The Dalai Lama immediately wrote prayers to Dorje Shugden and made a statue with his own hands, which exists until today. Dorje Shugden’s practice has existed and has been practiced by the Gelugs and the Sakyas to an extent since.

According to the traditionalists, Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche got the practice of this protector from his master, Tapu Dorje Chang. Tapu Dorje Chang, who was famous for his ability to traverse other planes of existences, went to Tushita heaven where Maitreya, Atisha and Lama Tsongkhapa and their retinues resided.  There, he requested the teaching of Dorje Shugden directly from Dulzin Dragpa Gyaltsen who passed it to him with Lama Tsongkhapa’s blessings. This practice was then disseminated and practiced by the highest lamas of the Gelugpa tradition. Logically, if they practice and recommend it, surely there is nothing wrong with the practice. [Source http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=11618]

If Dorje Shugden was really an evil spirit, that would mean that all of these erudite masters such as Pabongkha Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche, Zong Rinpoche, Rilbur Rinpoche, Taktra Rinpoche, Ling Rinpoche, Domo Geshe Rinpoche and many others are also wrong and their teachings are invalid and will only lead to degeneration. Their students will also no attainments and their teachings will be invalid as well. It would also mean that Dharma protectors do not exist because they allow the Dharma to degenerate. However the opposite is happening and these teachers and their students are spreading Dharma far and wide, and there are attainments.

However, on the other side of the story, the Dalai Lama quotes from the 5th Dalai Lama’s secret biography, saying that Dorje Shugden is but a normal spirit who appeared out of distorted prayers. The biography also insinuates that Dorje Shugden is against the 5th Dalai Lama and wanted to harm him. The 5th Dalai Lama even wrote a prayer that requests the other Dharmapalas to destroy Dorje Shugden but it did not work. Also listed as reasons were a number of high lamas who were also against the Dorje Shugden practice from the 17th century up to the 19th century, stating that Kalarupa was furious at monks who practiced Dorje Shugden and killed them to “cleanse” the monastery.  However, the main point as declared by the Dalai Lama on why Dorje Shugden should not be practiced is that Dorje Shugden encourages sectarianism since Dorje Shugden encourages the practitioner to only focus on his or her own lineage, and thus harmful to the cause of Tibet and to the Dalai Lama as the current Dalai Lama would like to practice all 4 of the lineages together.  Another historical fact is that many people dreamt of Dorje Shugden, in a dream to several people, announcing the death of the 13th Dalai Lama in a “joyous and melodious tone” from Pabongkha Rinpoche’s biography, as proof of his maliciousness. All of these are proof that Dorje Shugden is against the Dalai Lama and are presented as scriptural evidence that Dorje Shugden is malicious and that he is against the Dalai Lama. On another level, since Pabongkha Rinpoche’s time, consultations with the state oracle, Nechung had stated that he was unhappy with monks practicing Dorje Shugden in Drepung monastery, and that it would speed up the degeneration of the Dharma if it continued.
[source: http://www.dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden/speeches-by-his-holiness, http://www.dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden/historical-references]

Although all of these there are a few loopholes with these scriptural references. 
-   Firstly, it is a well known fact that the 5th Dalai Lama was very against Dorje Shugden at first and tried to destroy him but realized that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha when all of the methods failed. He remedied for his mistake of writing the wrathful prayer by writing a prayer enthroning Dorje Shugden as an enlightened Dharmapala. The evidence from the 5th Dalai Lama’s biography only takes the part where the 5th Dalai Lama still thought that Dorje Shugden was still a spirit and not after. 

-   On the Kalarupa case, there was no evidence on who perceived Kalarupa acting this way. On the sectarianism of Dorje Shugden, in his prayers Dorje Shugden is requested to protect Losang’s tradition (Gelugpa). [source: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=57 ] This is however a standard feature of any Dharma protector prayer where the Dharma protector is requested to protect the lineage, and not exclusive to Dorje Shugden’s prayers alone, therefore there is nothing sectarian about Dorje Shugden’s prayers.

-   Many lamas such as Pabongkha Rinpoche has also stressed the importance on being loyal to one’s own tradition as it sends a message to others that your own tradition is not good enough, which is why you take on another lineage, giving a bad impression to others of your own lineage [Liberation of the Palm of your Hand] and Dorje Shugden encouraging this trait is not a strong or valid reason for him to be classified as sectarian.

-   As for the other historical facts, it is also well known that Dorje Shugden saved the life of the 14th Dalai Lama by asking him to flee Tibet when Nechung asked him to stay, and also Dorje Shugden asking people to form Chushi Gangdruk, a guerilla group to protect the Dalai Lama, 3 years before the uprising began [http://dorjeshugden.net/wp/?p=8850], so why would Dorje Shugden be happy for the 13th Dalai Lama’s death but protects the 14th Dalai Lama? This inconsistency does not make logical sense at all.

-   In Dorje Shugden’s biography, it is stated that Nechung specifically appeared to Dulzin Dragpa Gyaltsen and requested him to manifest as a Dharma protector for the recent times to come. In other words, Nechung was instrumental in the “creation” of Dorje Shugden, but why would he go against him now when he helped create Dorje Shugden? Did Nechung realize he made a mistake? But if he did then that would mean that he is no longer dependable as the state oracle as all his instructions and predictions would be false, including all the tulkus that he has approved. Again, there is no logical conclusion to this point.

As presented here, the points given on why Dorje Shugden is a demon is quite weak, but there is much evidence that Dorje Shugden is in reality a Buddha after heavy contemplation, reasoning and evidence.



« Last Edit: January 28, 2012, 04:14:34 PM by beggar »