Dalai Lama or Dorje Shugden? Can I choose both?

[Big Uncle]

Here is a dilemma of a Dorje Shugden practitioner:-

I have two Lamas and one of them is the Dalai Lama and I sat through a Kalachakra initiation with him. After that, I met another Lama who is a Geshe and he taught me the commentary, set me on retreats, taught me the Lamrim, 50 Verses of Guru Devotion, Mind transformation teachings and so forth. Finally, he even gave me his special secret practice - Dorje Shugden. What do I do? Do I give up Dorje Shugden and look for another Lama who does not practice Dorje Shugden? Do I forget the Dalai Lama and carry on practicing? What do I do and what are the implications of either actions? Is there an alternative for me?

[Zach]

You should have checked first. If you want to practice Dorje shugden the Dalai lama has requested you not be his student or go to his initations and if he's your Vajramaster which by default recieving the full Kalachakra tantra initation from him and not having recieved a HYT empowerment from any other master before him that would make him your Vajramaster.

Did you have the full initation or just the blessing because if it was the full initation thats a fair big commitment.

[Poonlarp]

I think you should recognize 1 guru as root guru between the 2 lamas. Choose the one which benefited you the most, and the one will keep you learning more, then follow all the way what the guru gives you.

Personally, I think choosing both is possible if my root guru is not Dalai Lama. Meaning I can still practice what DL gave me, but on the other hand I practice Dorje Shugden which my guru thinks it's beneficial to me. It's just like what DL always said, it's ok if you are Christian or Muslim, the point is you be a good person. So if practising Dorje Shugden (just like another religion) makes me a better person, to have a better life, then why not?

Sorry I am not familiar with the "rules and regulations" about initiations, but if initiations don't have restriction to practise something else from some guru else, I think you still have to freedom to do like this. Apologize if I made any silly suggestion.

[Klein]

This is a common dilemma that many practitioners have been facing and are still facing. I would continue to practise Dorje Shugden quietly and continue to support the Dalai Lama. Nobody needs to know what I practise as long as I practise what's been given to me by my Guru. Keeping my Guru samaya clean is more important if I want attainments.

In this instance, I have the best of both. The Dalai Lama obviously has a higher reason for condemning Dorje Shugden. So no point going against the Dalai Lama.  I believe that with time the ban on the practice will be lifted.

[hope rainbow]

Here is a dilemma of a Dorje Shugden practitioner:-

I have two Lamas and one of them is the Dalai Lama and I sat through a Kalachakra initiation with him. After that, I met another Lama who is a Geshe and he taught me the commentary, set me on retreats, taught me the Lamrim, 50 Verses of Guru Devotion, Mind transformation teachings and so forth. Finally, he even gave me his special secret practice - Dorje Shugden. What do I do? Do I give up Dorje Shugden and look for another Lama who does not practice Dorje Shugden? Do I forget the Dalai Lama and carry on practicing? What do I do and what are the implications of either actions? Is there an alternative for me?

Big Uncle, thank you for sharing this with us.
I am not in anyway in a situation like ours, so my thoughts on it are theoretical.

1. Is the Dalai Lama your root Guru?
I do not think that sitting at a Kalachakra initiation among many other thousands of people may be what qualifies the Dalai Lama as your root Guru, unless of course, you visualized His Holiness as your root Guru and HH also was the main Lama who brought you to Buddhism and that propelled you to start practicing, and even more so if the Dalai Lama is the monk that gave you refuge.
So, if I were you, I would find out first who is my root Guru, but I am sure you already have a clear answer on that.

2. If the Dalai Lama is not your root Guru and if your root Guru practices Dorje Shugden, I do not see any conflict to be resolved.

3. If the Dalai lama is your root Guru, there is indeed what appears to be a conflict, and you are finding yourself in a situation where many others are at the moment. And the best advise I can humbly give you is to learn as much as possible about the ban from this web-site (which is excellent) and elsewhere too and make your own decision as to the matter. Perhaps you should also request for guidance from the geshe that initiated you into the practice of Dorje Shugden.

4. At the end of the day, I would also divert from focusing onto a conflict that only has two solutions: "I practice / I don't practice", the matter may be less stringent than a choice between two solutions, there may be more than two solutions.

[hope rainbow]

Actually, I just read this post, and I find it is most remarkable and relevant to this topic also:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1614.0

And I have xtracted this:

"Similarly when we approach one Lama and we are taught one thing but the next Lama whom we meet teaches us something contradicting, we should examine ourselves and not the qualified Lamas."

[yontenjamyang]

Do what many monks do in secret. Treat both as your lamas. Keep your tantric vows and commitments if any but continue to practice DS. Do not attend DL's initiation and keep samaya clean with DL.

You did not mention which one is your root guru. If the Geshe is your root guru then do as above. If DL is your root guru, go ask the Geshe for advice if you have doubts. Otherwise, again do as above.

Personally, if I am you, I will continue both. DL has a higher reason. Don't take appearance literally. When in doubt, take Dharma as your refuge.

[pgdharma]

Well, if I am in this situation, I will choose both. However it is best to ask your Geshe if you are in doubt.  If I had taken initiation from HHDL, I will still keep a clean samaya with him, listen to his advise, put into practiced what he has taught me and at the same time do Dorje Shugden practices discreetly

Think for yourself. Has Dorje Shugden helped and benefitted you in any ways? Learn from this website that provides you with logical information. Is Dorje Shugden a spirit? Is there a bigger reason why he is banning this practice? Are we at that level to understand what HHDL is doing?

I hope the ban will be lifted soon so that people like you will have their doubts cleared and will not face with this kind of dilemma.

[lightning]

You may take may take another Kalachakra tantra initation from another Lama who will give you self generation oral transmission or You may take take Yamantaka empowerment from or any choose other three Main HYT empowerment from another Lama who give you DS empowerment. This is due to the four HYT empowerment are higher that Kalachakra tantra. That will make that Lama your root Guru instead of HHDL. Please consult that Lama for advice.

[tsangpakarpo]

Interesting topic...

Do we really have to choose only one? I too would like to choose both!

No doubt, the Dalai Lama has done so much for the benefit of mankind. Everywhere he goes, words of wisdom and compassion follows.

The same goes for our great Protector, Dorje Shugden. Interestingly, I have watched a couple of videos on youtube of Dalai Lama. The Dalai Lama was giving teachings in foreign countries and he mentioned about Dorje Shugden. Albeit negatively but it still sends out a message that this Protector exist! This will stir the curiosity of the people in that country and they will search for more information regarding this 'evil spirit'.

Can this be the Dalai Lama's way of promoting Dorje Shugden to the world?

[Aurore]

It sounds like the Geshe is your root guru. Perhaps before when you have not met this lama who has given you so much such as your retreat and practice, you would not even need to go for initiation with Dalai Lama.

One should be so lucky to have one guru who can directly give you instructions and teachings. There is nothing better than that. So if I am you, I will stick to one guru who I have the fortune to meet and train under directly and gratefully do as he ask.

On the other hand, as many others here, I believe that HHDL will be very happy if you do continue to practice DS even though it may seem like it's not. It's all an illusory play. If there are future implications, then continue your practice in private. Hope this help!

[kris]

I don't know how true is this, but I heard that there are many Dorje Shugden practitioners, who do not openly declare to the world they are practicing Dorje Shugden, still goes to HH Dalai Lama's talk and initiations. Not only that, it is said that many people who work closely with Dalai Lama are in fact serious Dorje Shugden practitioners.

I think one of the good examples is 101th Gaden Tripa. He is a very devoted Dorje Shugde practitioner. I am sure HH Dalai Lama knows he is devoted practitioner, but why still allow him to be the Gaden Tripa?

I choose to believe this is just a part of the big plan to spread Dorje Shugden and Buddhism wide and far

[brian]

I would just keep both
If I have the fortune of ever attended any of HH's inititations, I would still keep my promise to HH for this is my practice. At the same time, I have also received many other initiations from other Lamas. So I will still keep it and would hold it as my daily practice. For Dorje Shugden practice, although the practice was banned by HHDL, but based on all the facts and reality that I found out, I know I am in the right and should keep on practicising it.

[Jessie Fong]

Certainly choosing both would be the better solution, if you have the choice.  Another alternative would be not to choose between the two.   Since you had received the initiation from HH and you also have a Geshe, you would have to consider who is your root guru, for your root guru is the one person you have chose to be with you all your life.  Obviously then you would choose your Geshe who has given you the DS practice; how could you give this up?  Choose both then.

[Positive Change]

Well... Personally, I do not think one needs to "choose" per se. It is a dilemma facing a lot of people at the moment. Especially ones caught directly within the netting of the ban. And they DO NOT have a choice because either way, they are suffering either socially or spiritually. The conundrum is not an easy one but one really needs to focus on what is important for oneself... do we want mere acceptance or do we want attainments.

I know speaking from across the pond is easy but if we really dwell deeper into this so called contradiction and ban, it is clear that there is a higher purpose behind it and we should apply resilience, empathy and patience but at the same time DO NOT give up on your practice and DO NOT break your samaya with your guru!