Nechung caused the death of 13th Dalai Lama?

[vajralight]

http://www.tricycle.com/special-section/an-interview-with-geshe-kelsang-gyatso

Lopez: Do you believe that the Dalai Lama is an incarnation of Avalokiteshvara?

Geshe Kelsang Gyatso/ GKG:If he is an incarnation of Avalokiteshvara why he is causing so many people suffering? Why is he causing the spiritual life of so many people to be destroyed? Now there is big confusion. Since His Holiness the Dalai Lama removed Shugden statues from Gelugpa monasteries and temples and claimed that Shugden is a worldly, harmful spirit, people throughout the Buddhist world have begun to have doubts about the general dharma of the Gelugpa tradition, and in particular the dharma of Je Pabongka and Trijang Rinpoche. Now you can see the belief pervading everywhere that these lamas and their tradition are invalid and impure. How can His Holiness the Dalai Lama do this, unless he thinks that the dharma taught by Trijang Rinpoche is not the real dharma? What he is doing now is putting great effort to destroy the Dharma taught by his own spiritual guide. This is a very horrible example, because every Buddhist practitioner believes that relying on the spiritual guide is the root of the path and the very essence of the practice. He is showing that the lama or spiritual guide doesn’t matter. How can Avalokiteshvara do this?

[Lineageholder]

The Dalai Lama trusts oracles of worldly spirits but not his own Guru.  As Geshe Kelsang explains in that interview, because the Dalai Lama is insistent that Dorje Shugden is a spirit, this has tarnished the whole Gelugpa tradition which is seen as impure and brought his own Guru's teachings into disrepute.

This is, indeed, a strange example to show.  It's not Mahayana Dharma.

[Big Uncle]

Well, Nechung being a worldly spirit is highly unusual. He comes up with inaccurate prophesies and purportedly killed the 13th Dalai Lama with bad medicine. Then, we hear that he was the main catalyst for Dorje Shugden to arise and that he even gave Dorje Shugden his name.

He tipped the rivalry between the faction of the Great Fifth Dalai Lama and Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen that cause the assassination attempt that resulted in Dorje Shugden to arise. We hear that he is publicly against Dorje Shugden and frequently talks against Dorje Shugden. All these news paints a rather complicated imagery of Nechung. I believe whatever is his motivation right now, I feel in a way indebted towards him because he was one of the major reasons for Dorje Shugden to arise.

[harrynephew]

The Dalai Lama trusts oracles of worldly spirits but not his own Guru.  As Geshe Kelsang explains in that interview, because the Dalai Lama is insistent that Dorje Shugden is a spirit, this has tarnished the whole Gelugpa tradition which is seen as impure and brought his own Guru's teachings into disrepute.

This is, indeed, a strange example to show.  It's not Mahayana Dharma.

How true! U just reminded me of this post of what the HHDL told HH Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche in the year 2003!
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1387.0

The more you think about it, the more fire builds up in you. why is there a mountain of absurd consequences and hindrances in the way of Dorje Shugden's lineage posed by HHDL himself? Does he want this lineage to end so that the culture, transmissions and tradition of Tibet's most sacred tradition dies with this incarnation?

[Manjushri]

I've heard this from one or two people before,but not that many people seem to know about it. Its been kept very hush hush.

Found an article:

"The Controversy Regarding the Death of the 13th Dalai Lama
 
In the early writings about the death of the 13th Dalai Lama, there is no mention of Dorje Shugden being involved; yet modern polemicists had to get their digs in to distract the original story. In particular, the 13th Dalai Lama passed away on December 17, 1933 after a short illness. Bell took interest in this matter and wrote:
 
It appeared that the Precious Protector had gone to the Field on the last day of the tenth Tibetan month, corresponding with the middle of December. The day of the week was Sunday. According to Tibetan ideas, if a man dies on a Sunday or a Tuesday, it is an evil omen. People say, “He died on a stormy day.”
 
He relates stories circulating around from Lhasa about the cause of the sudden sickness:
 
He has told me about the medium of the Nechung Oracle giving the Precious Protector medicine which injured him.
 
Perhaps they were more than rumors, as Bell writes about seven months later he visited Tibet. In particular, he visited the son of a steward of one family who had been working in close contact with the Dalai Lama during the last two years of his life. Bell writes a detailed account of the clerk, which in short describes how the illness started with a small cough the first day, yet by the evening of the second day the Dalai Lama skipped his usual soup, which resulted in a summoning of the servants. Next Bell writes:
 
At about 11 p.m. the Precious Protector ordered the medium of the Oracle of Nechung, whom Kunpel La had hastily summoned, to worship the goddess, name Palhajok, whose image is in the Temple in Lhasa. The medium had come at once in a great hurry; he had not even stopped to put on his robes before coming.
 
Then:
 
The same night, between 1 and 2 a.m., the medium gave the Precious Protector some medicine in the form of a powder. When the medium came out, Champa La, the Presence’s regular doctor, said to the medium, ‘You have made a mistake in the medicine’ (Men di norra nangzha). So soon after this the medium gave the Presence another powder in accordance with what Champa La prescribed. During all this time the Presence uttered no word......"

Read more here: http://www.dorjeshugdenhistory.org/did-the-13th-dalai-lama-ban-dorje-shugden.html


Anyways, it does strike me as weird that despite the many mistakes that Nechung has made, there is still so much trust placed in him by HHDL and the Tibetan Adminstration. Why trust an unenlightened spirit who has made wrong predictions that has resulted in serious consequences. But on the other hand, hope rainbow did bring up a very interesting point..that the timing between the 13th DL's death, and the 14th DL's exile from Tibet is uncanny. And ultimately it was Nechung who created the conditions for Dorje Shugden to arise.

By the way, does Nechung collect more demerit than merit when making inaccurate predictions?

[brian]

If the DL doesn't know the difference between a Buddha and a worldly spirit, as demonstrated in the case of Dorje Shugden, why should he be able to know the difference between a true worldly spirit Nechung and a fake one ??

PS Ofcourse I don't believe the DL is Avalokiteshvara, I'm with Geshe Kelsang Gyatso on this one...... sorry....

HHDL is definitely Chenrizig. If he wasn't, why would all the Lamas and including the High Lamas proclaimed He is? That will mean the High Lamas were all wrong. It doesn't makes sense does it? High Lamas have clairvoyance and will be able to determine whether HHDL is Chenrizig or otherwise.

Same goes to the taking trance, of course any High Lama will be able to determine which deity has entered an oracle. Highly impossible that a High Lama would not be able to do so. For all his Gurus are all clairvoyant.

[jagger]

I once read somewhere that the oracle of Nechung today does not take trance of the deity Pehar Gyalpo anymore. The reason behind it is that the nuances and also behaviour of the current nechung oracle now in trance is so much different than the previous oracle.

could someone validate this?

[Rinchen]

Personally, I would believe that the Nechung Oracle is not taking any trance of Nechung at all. I believe that the spirit that the Nechung Oracle is taking trance of is a worldly spirit, and has been giving all the wrong advices to the Dalai Lama and the CTA. Hence, we can see the lack of respect that the CTA shows towards Nechung. The monks in the CTA can even joke and laugh about it. It shows the lack of trust and believe in Nechung. This is shown here in this article: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/the-answer-of-a-member-of-the-tibetan-parliament-we-dont-know-anything-about-nechung/

The forum discussion of the article would be: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=3510.0

[vajrastorm]

Nechung is as much a puzzle as HH 14th Dalai Lama. However, I believe that the Dalai Lama is Chenrezig. I also believe that Nechung is enlightened or else how  could he have acted as he had done to make Duldzin Drakpa Gyeltsen  promise to arise as a Protector to protect Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings? And how could he have made sure that Tulku Dakpa Gyeltsen remembered and kept his promise?

Nechung making wrong predictions and giving wrong advice, and sometimes with disastrous consequences also point decisively to his leaving the scene and letting Dorje Shugden take over as the future World Protector. Je Tsongkhapa's teachings, especially his wisdom teachings - his unexcelled propounding of Nargajuna's Middle View of Emptiness- must spread to the four corners of the world for the benefit of all. Who else but the Protector who arose to protect Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings, who should now rise and pave the way for the ban to be lifted?
 

[icy]

I believe Nechung was just a vehicle for the exit of the 13th Dalai Lama.  It was time for the 13th Dalai Lama to pass and Nechung was the vehicle to give him the wrong medicine for the passing.  13th Dalai Lama is Chenrizig, surely he is omniscient and would not take the wrong medicine if it was not time to go.  Poor Nechung was blamed in this episode.  Actually he is a good guy.

[DharmaSpace]

Nechung has been serving Guru Rinpoche and later the Dalai Lama for hundreds of years. Nechung through the service to Guru Rinpoche and the Dalai Lama would have collected much merits. Nechung is predicted to be enlightened.

Nechung predictions and help was reliable for hundreds of years after Guru Rinpoche's passing, so beings like this sworn to protect buddha dharma, if they were to make mistakes they would have done so since their emergence. The longer Nechung does his 'job' he would get better at it I would imagine. So I think Nechung is just pretending to be inaccurate to pave the way for Dorje Shugden to take over as the universal protector. If Nechung were to make mistakes he would have done it a long time ago.

[Rihanna]

There is just so much controversy surrounding Nechung. It is baffling why Dalai Lama would still be consulting Nechung for all advises given by Nechung were to be ineffective. But it really confuses me when i read about Nechung asking Dalai Lama to stay in Tibet when the Chinese army invaded Tibet. Nechung's advises has been increasingly under scrutiny over the years and many would doubt Nechung especially after the wrong prescription to the 13th Dalai Lama. As per all the accounts taken, one would wonder did Dalai Lama continue to rely on Nechung for a purpose? As history stretched back to Lama Tsongkhapa's time, it was Nechung who requested Lord Duldzin to be the protector Lord Dorje Shugden and yet it was Nechung who later proclaimed to Dalai Lama that Dorje Shugden is a spirit instead.