Dorje Shugden and Setrap

[michaela]

Dear All

I have read some articles and noted that it is often said that Dorje Shugden and Setrap (both enlightened protectors) are from the same mandala.  Actually what does being in the same mandala means?

[Ratna Shugden]

Perhaps you may find your answer here:

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=745.msg7385#msg7385

[tsangpakarpo]

The picture above is the MANDALA of Dorje Shugden. Reason why people say both Setrab and Dorje Shugden are from the same mandala is because they both reside in the same Mandala (celestial mansion).

You can see in the picture below - at the top of the mansion resides Buddha Amitabha followed by SETRAB at the second level and then Dorje Shugden at the first level together with His other 4 emanations.

Attending to Dorje Shugden are his entourage consisting of the nine mothers, eight guiding monks and ten youthful and wrathful deities. Beyond that, there are also two Ministers of Dorje Shugden - Kache Marpo and Namkar Barzin residing in the Mandala to assist The King in protecting and spreading the Dharma.

The article in this link: http://shugdentoday.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=775&catid=13&Itemid=25 should help you understand better!

[Ensapa]

Also, Setrap is also the same Dharmapala who has appeared to save Dorje Shugden from some of the rituals and pujas that were meant to destroy him. It does seems that Setrap and Dorje Shugden are very close to each other. Perhaps it could be that Drakpa Gyaltsen has relied on Setrap when he was alive and also in his previous incarnations as well. I quote this from an older post here:

Setrap Chen is deeply connected with Dorje Shugden as he was one of Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen's main Protectors; this is why we see him and Amithaba in the thankas of Dharmapalas mansion. I love Alexis's story about Lord Dulzin being asked whether Setrap should be painted below or above - no competition in the enlightened mind, only care and clarity! The same with Lord Setrap - he often recommends propitiation of Dorje Shugden, Kalarupa, etc. I have heard that Setrap unleashed a storm on Sera monastery when the public anti-Dorje Shugden campaign started, and told the Sangha next morning through an oracle that he wasn't amused at all! We can also see many shrines with Lords Setrap and Shugden next to each other in Tibetan monasteries.

from http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=63.0

It is very inspiring to learn of the benefits that entail when one does not give up on one's protector and do his practice sincerely every single day. Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen is a clear example of this.

[michaela]

Ensapa,

I don't think DS, an enlightened being, need to be saved by Setrap, another enlightened being.  Strange isn't it?

[triesa]

Ensapa,

I don't think DS, an enlightened being, need to be saved by Setrap, another enlightened being.  Strange isn't it?

I think "save" is a big word, Lord Setrap and King Dorje Shugden are like brothers to each other, and they interplay their enlightened activities for each other as time required or called for.

[yontenjamyang]

I have been taught to visualize both Dorje Shugden and Setrap in the same mandala or even as one. In this way we can propitiate both Protectors while doing either of their Sadhana. How wonderful!

Have anyone else here been taught this?

[biggyboy]

Either way, whenever we propitiate Setrap, DS will be there.  Likewise when we propitiate DS, Setrap will be there too.  Thus, two of them are like "brothers".  No matter whom we propitiate we have BOTH.  How neat!   

[Q]

Actually, when it comes to Dharma protectors... sry it's a little off topic but I need to clear some questions.

For example, Buddhas, we have Manjushri, the Buddha that is excellent for wisdom... and then we have Medicine Buddha, that is excellent for wellbeing and health.

Dharma protectors on the other hand (referring to enlightened Dharma protectors) only have one function.

I can understand that Buddha emanates in a variety of qualities so there are many... but if Dharma protectors only have a single function, then why are there so many Dharma protectors? shouldn't having only 1 is sufficient?

[hope rainbow]

Actually, when it comes to Dharma protectors... sry it's a little off topic but I need to clear some questions.

For example, Buddhas, we have Manjushri, the Buddha that is excellent for wisdom... and then we have Medicine Buddha, that is excellent for wellbeing and health.

Dharma protectors on the other hand (referring to enlightened Dharma protectors) only have one function.

I can understand that Buddha emanates in a variety of qualities so there are many... but if Dharma protectors only have a single function, then why are there so many Dharma protectors? shouldn't having only 1 is sufficient?

It is said that some protectors are more "powerful" than others.
For instance, Dorje Shugden is a "protector of our time".

This does not mean that the protectors or the Buddhas are different from their own side, they are different from our side. How we project them. So when they appear to "specialize", it is because we need this "simplification" from our side.

Also, we have a karmic connection with Dorje Shugden that is stronger than to another protector, and this is why Dorje Shugden is more "powerful". Again, it comes from us, not from the side of the Buddhas.

All Buddhas have achieved excellence in ALL aspects of buddhahood.
All enlightened Dharma protectors are Buddhas, and are not different from their own side, whether we call them Manjushri, Maitreya, Chenrezig or Dorje Shugden.
We make the differences, in how we project them and with our karmic affinities.

[bambi]

Before I got to know about DS, I used to propitiate in Setrab and I felt the connections of being close to Him. Little did I know that Setrab and DS were brothers residing in the same mandala.  After meeting DS, the connections were stronger than before! How beautiful! As for visualizations, I was taught and given the permission to visualize DS by my Guru when I do my prayers.

[Ensapa]

Ensapa,

I don't think DS, an enlightened being, need to be saved by Setrap, another enlightened being.  Strange isn't it?

Why do high lamas do protector practice then? Many high lamas like the Karmapa and Dalai Lama have their own personal protectors, why do they still need to be protected?

the reason why is not because they need the help, but rather they manifest in a human form and although they are enlightened but their conditions and environment, and the people they want to reach out to and help are not. also they will need help to overcome obstacles that arise due to the very reason that they are human. It might also be that they are doing this to show us an example of the benefits of holding your Dharmapala close to you.

Nothing will change the fact that Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen practiced Setrap till the very end.

[hope rainbow]

A month ago, a dear friend of mine started doing Dorje Shugden mantras with dissolution visualization.
That friend was not feeling well and needed help with health.
The very week he started reciting the mantras, he was found to have a tumor in the brain of about 2cm diameter. A tumor that nobody knew about until then.

Without further thinking, one might say: "hold on, he started the mantra and then he is diagnosed with a tumor in the brain???"
Yes, indeed, the tumor was there before, so the mantra could not possible be the cause for the tumor. No! What a silly thought...
Yet, the tumor could have gone unnoticed for a long time and grow until abilities are lost due to the pressure from the tumor on very delicate parts of the brain. Why, how was the tumor found, it seems by "chance", if not for the assistance received from Dorje Shugden.

At this point of time, something can still be done to remove it, and we can't say what would have happened if the tumor would not have been found now, but we can likely imagine the worse.
Thank you Dorje Shugden for saving the life of my friend!

[Q]

Actually, when it comes to Dharma protectors... sry it's a little off topic but I need to clear some questions.

For example, Buddhas, we have Manjushri, the Buddha that is excellent for wisdom... and then we have Medicine Buddha, that is excellent for wellbeing and health.

Dharma protectors on the other hand (referring to enlightened Dharma protectors) only have one function.

I can understand that Buddha emanates in a variety of qualities so there are many... but if Dharma protectors only have a single function, then why are there so many Dharma protectors? shouldn't having only 1 is sufficient?

It is said that some protectors are more "powerful" than others.
For instance, Dorje Shugden is a "protector of our time".

This does not mean that the protectors or the Buddhas are different from their own side, they are different from our side. How we project them. So when they appear to "specialize", it is because we need this "simplification" from our side.

Also, we have a karmic connection with Dorje Shugden that is stronger than to another protector, and this is why Dorje Shugden is more "powerful". Again, it comes from us, not from the side of the Buddhas.

All Buddhas have achieved excellence in ALL aspects of buddhahood.
All enlightened Dharma protectors are Buddhas, and are not different from their own side, whether we call them Manjushri, Maitreya, Chenrezig or Dorje Shugden.
We make the differences, in how we project them and with our karmic affinities.

Thank you for the explanation.

I understand now. So it is due to our flaws that the Buddhas appear differently and some more powerful to us. When in actuality they all are equal in their ability to bless and protect us.

When you mention karmic affinity, does it refer to our imprints? Also, if a Buddha for example Dorje Shugden and Setrap resting in the same mandala, shouldn't we have equal affinity towards both of these protectors for that very reason?

[Ensapa]

Thank you for the explanation.

I understand now. So it is due to our flaws that the Buddhas appear differently and some more powerful to us. When in actuality they all are equal in their ability to bless and protect us.

When you mention karmic affinity, does it refer to our imprints? Also, if a Buddha for example Dorje Shugden and Setrap resting in the same mandala, shouldn't we have equal affinity towards both of these protectors for that very reason?

Same mandala does not mean that they have the same qualities to help us, both of them are enlightened but they manifested differently. Setrap manifested at a time where the sangha was facing a lot of problems and Dharma protector practice was not meant for laypeople, but for people who hold the vows firmly. Thus in Setrap's iconography, the horse's tail is in a knot, representing that he can only help us if we hold our vows. Dorje Shugden does not have that in his iconography. They help different categories of people.

How many of us at this day and age can keep our vows properly? there are too many grey lines and most of us dont even know if we have broken our vows...so how can Setrap help us if we do? Dorje Shugden is more suited because he helps us to repair it even if we have broken our vows. I can vouch for that from personal experience.