The Dalai Lama DID NOT SAY...

[Tenzin K]

I agree with all the above!

The emanation of Chenrezig, is a highly respected religious master which has so many people devoted and supported from people all over the world. If we believe of his emanation, then Chenrezig will never kill.

The people who carried out the action as mentioned, are the one that created the situation even worst. How can a practitioner able to make other people suffer? No way in any of the Buddhist teaching.

I pray strongly and dedicate my merit for those people who have blindly carried out those action that hurt so many people to realize their action and do more purification work.

[Galen]

It seems to me that CTA (formerly TGIE) has gone the "extra miles" to make their guru Dalai Lama "happy", by doing a lot more things which HH Dalai Lamai did not say.

Yes, HH Dalai Lama did not say slander your teacher, etc, but when people are doing it, why is he keeping quiet? Isn't keep quiet the same as giving the approval for them to continue doing the "extra" things?

Yes, Kris you hit the point. If the CTA are doing the extra things which the Dalai Lama did not say, then why can't the Dalai Lama then instruct them again.
He could have asked the the killing to stop when there was killing of Dorje Shugden Lamas.
He could have stopped the burning and destroying of Dorje Shugden Statues.
He could have asked the slandering to stop when there was slandering.
He could have done alot of things which the Dalai Lama did not do. Then, why is this so? Is he approving of what was being done?

[Ensapa]

Yes, Kris you hit the point. If the CTA are doing the extra things which the Dalai Lama did not say, then why can't the Dalai Lama then instruct them again.
He could have asked the the killing to stop when there was killing of Dorje Shugden Lamas.
He could have stopped the burning and destroying of Dorje Shugden Statues.
He could have asked the slandering to stop when there was slandering.
He could have done alot of things which the Dalai Lama did not do. Then, why is this so? Is he approving of what was being done?

That part is something we all cannot comprehend at the moment. But there is more -- HHDL personally said to expel monks who are practicing DS from monasteries and even went as far as saying that he takes responsibility for the expulsion and all the bad karma that comes with it. Huge move indeed!! Who else but a Buddha can carry such a heavy boulder over such actions? Splitting the sangha is one of the 5 heinous crimes and no matter how we would like see it, fact is that the sangha has been split by the ban and the consequences from this action also rests on HHDL's shoulders.

This is on top of the destruction and sidelining of all the DS practitioners all over the world and all the mini schisms in various Buddhist communities around the world due to this issue.

Galen, the Dalai Lama does keep quiet on a lot of things, not just on this one. One of the issues that he has remained silent on is when he was questioned by the Sharmapa on why would he want to intervene in the choosing of the 17th Karmapa, in addition to the challenge by the 3rd Karmapa contender from Sikkim. I would not want to judge, but perhaps he sees that his words or decisions would have little effect on this time and thus chose to keep silent.

[Positive Change]

Yes, Kris you hit the point. If the CTA are doing the extra things which the Dalai Lama did not say, then why can't the Dalai Lama then instruct them again.
He could have asked the the killing to stop when there was killing of Dorje Shugden Lamas.
He could have stopped the burning and destroying of Dorje Shugden Statues.
He could have asked the slandering to stop when there was slandering.
He could have done alot of things which the Dalai Lama did not do. Then, why is this so? Is he approving of what was being done?

That part is something we all cannot comprehend at the moment. But there is more -- HHDL personally said to expel monks who are practicing DS from monasteries and even went as far as saying that he takes responsibility for the expulsion and all the bad karma that comes with it. Huge move indeed!! Who else but a Buddha can carry such a heavy boulder over such actions? Splitting the sangha is one of the 5 heinous crimes and no matter how we would like see it, fact is that the sangha has been split by the ban and the consequences from this action also rests on HHDL's shoulders.

This is on top of the destruction and sidelining of all the DS practitioners all over the world and all the mini schisms in various Buddhist communities around the world due to this issue.

Galen, the Dalai Lama does keep quiet on a lot of things, not just on this one. One of the issues that he has remained silent on is when he was questioned by the Sharmapa on why would he want to intervene in the choosing of the 17th Karmapa, in addition to the challenge by the 3rd Karmapa contender from Sikkim. I would not want to judge, but perhaps he sees that his words or decisions would have little effect on this time and thus chose to keep silent.

HHDL's motivation is beyond question or comprehension. We cannot really use our tainted explanations of theories as to why this or the other is said or done. We simply cannot! If we trust HHDL to be who he is, an emanation of Avalokiteshvara, then we certainly cannot question the motives let alone the reasoning behind it.

I personally do not question or have a reasoning as to why HHDL does and says what he does, but I believe in the higher motivation behind it. However, one can clearly deduce, based on the results of HHDL actions and words, how the bigger picture is unfolding. In the grand scheme of things there are often martyrs in the making not that i feel the hardships and pain of the ones suffering in this issue is easily thrown aside... it sometimes just is.

[Ensapa]

HHDL's motivation is beyond question or comprehension. We cannot really use our tainted explanations of theories as to why this or the other is said or done. We simply cannot! If we trust HHDL to be who he is, an emanation of Avalokiteshvara, then we certainly cannot question the motives let alone the reasoning behind it.

I personally do not question or have a reasoning as to why HHDL does and says what he does, but I believe in the higher motivation behind it. However, one can clearly deduce, based on the results of HHDL actions and words, how the bigger picture is unfolding. In the grand scheme of things there are often martyrs in the making not that i feel the hardships and pain of the ones suffering in this issue is easily thrown aside... it sometimes just is.

While it is understandable that in every battle there will be collateral damage, and in every big project there will be collateral damage as well, sometimes we do need something to rely on to keep reminding us to not be disheartened or turn against the Dalai Lama like what some people have already done which also goes against directly Trijang Rinpoche's advice as well as the protectors'. To not be disheartened we need to keep reminding ourselves that the protector has helped us so much and we need to carry out his will to not disparage HHDL yet support our supreme protector at the same time.

HHDL has and is still bearing much hardship for the sake of the Dharma to grow and spread, and to help him along of all the Dharma protectors, he chose Dorje Shugden because he is the only enlightened protector compassionate enough to go through all of the hardships that HHDL is putting him through. This action just shows who Dorje Shugden really is: an extremely compassionate Buddha.

[Positive Change]

HHDL has and is still bearing much hardship for the sake of the Dharma to grow and spread, and to help him along of all the Dharma protectors, he chose Dorje Shugden because he is the only enlightened protector compassionate enough to go through all of the hardships that HHDL is putting him through. This action just shows who Dorje Shugden really is: an extremely compassionate Buddha.

I do love what you said here Ensapa... This is certainly yet another way to look at the whole bigger picture! I had wondered about why Dorje Shugden? But then now you have clearly explained the possible reason!!! And it makes so much sense. Thank you!

[Lineageholder]

HHDL has and is still bearing much hardship for the sake of the Dharma to grow and spread, and to help him along of all the Dharma protectors, he chose Dorje Shugden because he is the only enlightened protector compassionate enough to go through all of the hardships that HHDL is putting him through. This action just shows who Dorje Shugden really is: an extremely compassionate Buddha.

I do love what you said here Ensapa... This is certainly yet another way to look at the whole bigger picture! I had wondered about why Dorje Shugden? But then now you have clearly explained the possible reason!!! And it makes so much sense. Thank you!

Um, so he chose Dorje Shugden to help him by banning him?  Strange logic...in fact, no logic.  Sorry! 

When you compare the previous lives of Buddha Shakyamuni who really did make enormous sacrifices to learn and practice Dharma, the Dalai Lama hasn't had to endure any hardships.  Everyone treats him like a King.

[Lineageholder]

HHDL's motivation is beyond question or comprehension. We cannot really use our tainted explanations of theories as to why this or the other is said or done. We simply cannot! If we trust HHDL to be who he is, an emanation of Avalokiteshvara, then we certainly cannot question the motives let alone the reasoning behind it.

Leave your rational mind at the door?  This is not what Buddha taught.  He taught that we should test everything.

We may not be able to see the motivation behind the Dalai Lama's actions directly, but we can see the result - a schism in the Sangha, families at each other's throats, Shugden practitioners being beaten and discriminated against, Shugden statues being destroyed and general spiritual degeneration.

In short, suffering.  There's no evidence that the Dalai Lama is Avalokiteshvara; in fact, quite the opposite I'm sorry to say.

When does a Buddha's actions cause suffering?  When do Buddhas disagree with their Spiritual Guides and claim to know better and practise sectarianism towards revered and genuine spiritual practices?

People use these kinds of arguments to justify irrational beliefs such as 'well, we can't really know God, so we cannot say why there is suffering in the world, but if God is the creator,  there must be some good reason for it"

It's just the same; please people, we come from a proud lineage of fine logicians such as Dignaga, Dharmakirti, Nagarjuna, Chandrakirti, Shantideva and Lama Tsongkhapa - please don't appeal to the irrational as an explanation for something that you find unexplainable or unpalatable.  Aren't we supposed to think for ourselves?  It's precisely blind faith that has led to this sectarian ban in the first place - the Dalai Lama's blind faith in the fifth Dalai Lama and his followers blind faith in him.

You are creating a 'bigger picture' - there is no evidence and no logical justification for one.  It's simply blind faith.

[DharmaSpace]

Lineageholder, some of what you say is true not all.

In Tibet dorje shugden is spreading some friends just came back from Tibet, the Chinese Government does appreciate the Dorje Shugden practitioners and support them when they know the practitioners are sincere. Many dorje Shugden practitioners are practising more and doing much more, you can see that when in India. What are the biggest buddhist organisations in the world a lot of them have links to Dorje Shugden.

If nothing else it has made us much moe able to bear difficulties due to the ban and discrimination. I will never agree with the the GREAT EXCEPTION, the GREAT EXCEPTION rules, as I saw with my own eyes the monks in India, Shar Gaden do not speak harshly about the Dalai Lama, things are more difficult but they are more practised and able to endure much more  I am sure than their counterparts who gave up dorje shugden. 

Have u heard the oracle of Dorje Shugden denouncing the Dalai Lama even once?
 

[Klein]

It seems to me that CTA (formerly TGIE) has gone the "extra miles" to make their guru Dalai Lama "happy", by doing a lot more things which HH Dalai Lamai did not say.

Yes, HH Dalai Lama did not say slander your teacher, etc, but when people are doing it, why is he keeping quiet? Isn't keep quiet the same as giving the approval for them to continue doing the "extra" things?

Yes, Kris you hit the point. If the CTA are doing the extra things which the Dalai Lama did not say, then why can't the Dalai Lama then instruct them again.
He could have asked the the killing to stop when there was killing of Dorje Shugden Lamas.
He could have stopped the burning and destroying of Dorje Shugden Statues.
He could have asked the slandering to stop when there was slandering.
He could have done alot of things which the Dalai Lama did not do. Then, why is this so? Is he approving of what was being done?

Dear Galen,

What you say is very true. However if HHDL is Avalokiteshvara, then I'm very certain he has very good reasons for staying quiet. We will only know at the end of the day when the truth reveals itself. For now, all this is beyond our comprehension.

This is the time that we need to have full trust in the Enlightened beings.

[Tammy]

Wow! It is mind-blowing to read from all of you on this subject, some of the arguments put forth made so much sense and they were certainly food for thought.

I am a simple-minded DS practitioner, I know Dorje Shugden is an enlightened dharma proctector who had helped me and my family and he will answer my prayers and I shall hold the practice dear until my last day of this life.

On the other hand, ban notwithstanding, I respect and pay homage to HHDL as the leader of our spiritual lineage. There is definitely a reason for this ban which would be disclosed very soon.

[Ensapa]

Um, so he chose Dorje Shugden to help him by banning him?  Strange logic...in fact, no logic.  Sorry! 

When you compare the previous lives of Buddha Shakyamuni who really did make enormous sacrifices to learn and practice Dharma, the Dalai Lama hasn't had to endure any hardships.  Everyone treats him like a King.

Lets just use this scenario: A Guru will only scold and give intense and harsh treatments to the student who can bear it so that they can transform faster. Perhaps this student will always be the target of "irrational" scoldings from the Guru which will scold him for no reason at all, or made to do harsh works like Milarepa. Why did the Guru choose this student out of the many to be treated this way? Because the Guru knows he can take it. And sometimes the student who chooses to be placed in the situation so that he can be an example to other students is indeed compassionate and shows that he has a certain level of attainments (like Milarepa)

This is the same logic applied to Dorje Shugden and the Dalai Lama in this scenario.

Sure, on a conventional level it may appear that everyone treats HHDL as a king, but do you know the amount of indirect threats he had to endure? There are many groups in Tibet who threaten HHDL to complying with them with lots of indirect threats and HHDL has to make the right choice to prevent bloodshed. To see Reting Rinpoche, his root Guru that is like his father being tortured under the dungeon? Can you endure that? How does it feel to be put at the frontline, where everybody just shoves their problems to you and hope that you would give them a solution? That is what HHDL is to the Tibetans, and that is what he can endure to "live like a king". If you can go through all those, then yeah you can say what you say.

[Lineageholder]

Lets just use this scenario: A Guru will only scold and give intense and harsh treatments to the student who can bear it so that they can transform faster. Perhaps this student will always be the target of "irrational" scoldings from the Guru which will scold him for no reason at all, or made to do harsh works like Milarepa. Why did the Guru choose this student out of the many to be treated this way? Because the Guru knows he can take it. And sometimes the student who chooses to be placed in the situation so that he can be an example to other students is indeed compassionate and shows that he has a certain level of attainments (like Milarepa)

This is the same logic applied to Dorje Shugden and the Dalai Lama in this scenario.

I'm sorry, my friend, but that doesn't make any sense either.  The Guru scolds students who can take it because he wants to purify them of negative karma and their ability to receive the wrathful blessings of Guru Heruka because of their faith is the quickest way to do it.  Dorje Shugden is a Buddha, he doesn't need to purify negative karma so he doesn't need to be treated harshly.

The evidence is that the Dalai Lama relies on superstition.  He's not using Dorje Shugden to do anything - he only disparages the lineage of his Gelugpa Gurus and says that they were wrong.  The Dalai Lama knows that people have blind faith in him and they will follow what he says.  His intention to destroy Dorje Shugden practice is real, based on all the evidence.

Sure, on a conventional level it may appear that everyone treats HHDL as a king, but do you know the amount of indirect threats he had to endure? There are many groups in Tibet who threaten HHDL to complying with them with lots of indirect threats and HHDL has to make the right choice to prevent bloodshed. To see Reting Rinpoche, his root Guru that is like his father being tortured under the dungeon? Can you endure that? How does it feel to be put at the frontline, where everybody just shoves their problems to you and hope that you would give them a solution? That is what HHDL is to the Tibetans, and that is what he can endure to "live like a king". If you can go through all those, then yeah you can say what you say.

There's no evidence that the Dalai Lama has had to endure any threats, apart from the ones that he falsely accuses Dorje Shugden practitioners of making. If he's a Buddha, they don't bother him anyway.  You can't have your cake and eat it, one minute claiming that the Dalai Lama is a Buddha but then claiming that he's under pressure from various threats!  The two don't go together.

Furthermore, if the Dalai Lama really is a pure Spiritual Teacher, let alone a Buddha, he would never allow Dharma to become mixed with politics in the way that he has done and would never use his position to destroy a pure spiritual tradition.  Even if threatened, he would act in accordance with Dharma.   We don't make excuses for delusions, claiming that there is some 'bigger picture' for having them - when you see faults you need to recognise them as such, especially when their recognition is supported by reason.  Practising pure view is not about denying conventional truths appearing to valid minds.

Probably this is enough said on this topic, thanks at least for considering my reasons.

[Lineageholder]

Lineageholder, some of what you say is true not all.

In Tibet dorje shugden is spreading some friends just came back from Tibet, the Chinese Government does appreciate the Dorje Shugden practitioners and support them when they know the practitioners are sincere. Many dorje Shugden practitioners are practising more and doing much more, you can see that when in India. What are the biggest buddhist organisations in the world a lot of them have links to Dorje Shugden.

If nothing else it has made us much moe able to bear difficulties due to the ban and discrimination. I will never agree with the the GREAT EXCEPTION, the GREAT EXCEPTION rules, as I saw with my own eyes the monks in India, Shar Gaden do not speak harshly about the Dalai Lama, things are more difficult but they are more practised and able to endure much more  I am sure than their counterparts who gave up dorje shugden. 

Have u heard the oracle of Dorje Shugden denouncing the Dalai Lama even once?

If Dorje Shugden practice is growing, that's due to the greatness of Dorje Shugden.  It's got nothing to do with the Dalai Lama's attempts to destroy the lineage - not surprisingly!

[DharmaSpace]

Have u heard the oracle of Dorje Shugden denouncing the Dalai Lama even once?

I hope you are not like Moose on phayul who dodges, please answer the question. Thank you.