Author Topic: HH 17th Gyalwang Karmapa Thaye Dorje supports Dorje Shugden!  (Read 10085 times)

WisdomBeing

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HH 17th Gyalwang Karmapa Thaye Dorje supports Dorje Shugden!
« on: February 05, 2012, 11:33:05 PM »
i came across this interesting article online today. It states that HH Sharmapa and HH 17th Gyalwang Karmapa Thaye Dorje support Dorje Shugden! However there is a disclaimer at the end of the article that the content of the article is not substantiated. Does anyone else have any other news about this? I know that this Karmapa is controversial as he is NOT endorsed by HH Dalai Lama.. but then neither are we!

I have highlighted the relevant section in green and bold below.

Dalai Lama overstepped his authority in Rumtek controversy: Karmapa Thaye Dorje
http://isikkim.com/2012-02-dalai-lama-overstepped-his-authority-in-rumtek-controversy-karmapa-thaye-dorje-05-03/

Soumik Dutta
Kalimpong/Gangtok:
February 5, 2012

On the side lines of Sonam Losar, Tamang Buddhist New Year celebrations in Kalimpong, Karmapa Trinley Thaye Dorje in an exclusive interview to Soumik Datta said that His Holiness the Dalai Lama had advertently or inadvertently over stepped his authority in endorsing Rinpoche Ugyen Trinley. The Karmapa said that HH the Dalai Lama did so perhaps keeping in mind the interests of the Tiebtan government in exile. The Karmapa also said that he and his mentor the 14th Shamarpa believe that a consensus and a peaceful solution is possible with HH the Dalai Lama also being involved in it.

Talking on the existing controversy regarding the genuineness of Karmapa for Rumtek, HH echoed his mentor the 14th Kunzig Shamarpa in stating that it was politics that had created the entire controversy, spoiling relationships, breaching trust and creating factionalism within the Karma Kagyu lineage in general.

The 14th Shamarpa, reincarnation, Mipham Chokyi Lodro had earlier in an interview to this reporter had said, “Politics should not interfere in religoius matters. Shamarpa said, ”Frankly, the then Sikkim Chief Minister N B Bhandari made a mistake by interfering in religious matters of the Rumtek Monastery. That was the turning point in the history of the selection and reinstatement of the 17th Gyalwang Karmapa. The controversies have since kept on.”

Shamarpa had further said, ”Bhandari had his vested interest in the forcible takeover of the Monastery in August 1993 from me and the other monks of the Karmapa Charitable Trust, who were ousted by sheer force. He was paid a staggering 2.5 million dollars in bribe money through Chen Lu An, a devotee of Tai Situ Rinpoche”.

When asked about the role played by HH the Dalai Lama in the entire episode of the controversy, HH Karmapa Thaye Dorje said, ”The seat of the 17th Gyalwang Karmapa does not need public endorsement or support. Traditionally it has been governed by Kagyu tradition of prediction letters left by Karmapas as to who would be their reincarnations. Unfortunately, the late 16th Gyalwang Karmapa Rangjung Rigpei Dorje, did not leave such a letter. Rinpoche Tai Situ produced a prediction letter proclaiming Rinpoche Ugyen Trinley as the 17th Gyalwang Karmapa, which my mentor the 14th Kunzig Shamarpa had objected to and asked to undergo a forensic examination for authentication. However, this was disallowed and subsequently HH Dalai Lama too endorsed Rinpoche Ugyen Trinley Dorje. Since then and the forceful takeover of the Rumtek Monastery, the Karmapa controversy has lived on.”

Does the Dalai Lama have any further role to play in finding an amicable settlement to the more than decade old Karmapa controversy? Karmapa Thaye Dorje smiled in a way high incarnated lamas do and added that Dalai Lama would remain a respectable figure, however, he had advertently or inadvertently over stepped his authority, perhaps in keeping in mind interests of his exile government. Both me and my mentor the 14th Shamarpa believe that a consensus and a peaceful solution is possible with HH the Dalai Lama also being involved in it, added the Karmapa.

Dalai Lama had decreed a ban on the worship of Dorje Shugden amongst his Tibetan followers on 7 March, 1996. Shamarpa, a supporter of religious freedom had opposed HH the Dalai Lama on the issue and he reiterated the stance by saying “Dharma is about thinking for yourself. It is not about automatically following a teacher in all things, no matter how respected that teacher may be. More than anyone else, Buddhist should respect other people’s rights – their human rights and their religious freedom. I understand when Tibetans feel this way; their livelihood may depend on being on good terms with the Tibetan exile administration in India. Maybe they would lose their job if they questioned the Dalai Lama’s right to choose the Karmapa.”

And which deity to worship or not, this is an unhealthy development in Buddhism, do you endorse the views of your mentor on this issue? The Karmapa smiled in the affirmative.


Earlier, while delivering His spiritual discourse on Sunday, the final event of the three-day long ceremony organized on the auspicious occasion of Sonam Losar, HH stressed on the need to maintain positive approach and mind that is always aimed at the universal well being. He enlightened the devotees saying, “Due to the nature of the individual and collective ignorance, let’s say, in some ways lack of knowing, essentially not knowing the truth, this brings actually all kinds of problems in an individual’s life. So, when the truth of ignorance is not well known, on such terms, violence and non-violence both come into the picture. From my personal perspective, yes, it is the path of non-violence but basically it is more than that. One has to use certain terminology such as non-violence but basically it is emphasizing what in Buddhism is known as Buddha Nature.

“The youth must realize and understand the importance of true wisdom and compassion, only then can they understand the meaning of dharma. The parents would have to play the role of the real teachers in helping and guiding them”, said 17th Karmapa Trinley Thaye Dorje in his message to the society.


(iSikkim.com has not been able to confirm the above story from other sources. iSikkim.com bears no responsibility about the truth of the above story.)
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Ratna Shugden

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Re: HH 17th Gyalwang Karmapa Thaye Dorje supports Dorje Shugden!
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2012, 01:40:28 PM »
If this story is true, I would interpret it in the following way:

HH Sharmapa and HH 17th Gyalwang Karmapa Thaye sees the ban on the practice of Dorje Shugen (Dorje Shugden Controversy) as a violation of religious freedom & that people should decide for themselves what is right & what is wrong based on Dharma teachings in all issues of life.

I believe Their main priority now & for all Karmapas would be to resolve the 'Karmapa Controversy', as soon as possible & in a way in which this unfortunate event would not be seen as black mark in the history of the Karmapa Tradition in the eyes of current & future generations of Karmapa, not to mention the rest of the world but as a story illustrating how Bodhichitta & skilful means of Karmapa masters resolve a crisis, inspiring all Karmapas through such enlightened deeds, and using this event as a stepping stone to bring the development of their tradition to a more enlightened level.

May the Dharma Protectors of the Karmapa Tradition work to make this happen!

DharmaDefender

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Re: HH 17th Gyalwang Karmapa Thaye Dorje supports Dorje Shugden!
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2012, 03:00:36 PM »
That makes no sense. The website publishes an article by one of their authors, but doesnt endorse it? What next? FOX News doesnt REALLY endorse its neo-conservative views? Why publish an article without the confidence that their author did the necessary investigative work?

Perhaps iSikkim just doesnt want to rub the CTA up the wrong way. God knows why though since the CTA are hardly an authority in world politics and news!

Ensapa

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Re: HH 17th Gyalwang Karmapa Thaye Dorje supports Dorje Shugden!
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2012, 10:02:19 AM »
That makes no sense. The website publishes an article by one of their authors, but doesnt endorse it? What next? FOX News doesnt REALLY endorse its neo-conservative views? Why publish an article without the confidence that their author did the necessary investigative work?

Perhaps iSikkim just doesnt want to rub the CTA up the wrong way. God knows why though since the CTA are hardly an authority in world politics and news!

Sikkim still has a huge Tibetan community there. And obviously the Tibetan community follows CTA. And they would not want to offend the huge amount of readership they have with the Tibetan community.

Now, it is interesting that Thaye Dorje supports Dorje Shugden, because the 16th Karmapa did as well. Orgyen Trinley has been quiet about this issue, surprisingly.

The Kagyu's current situation is due to schism created by one of their lamas who is, for some reason, manifesting the need for property and wealth. What I find most interesting is that neither he or the Sharmapa has spoken negative things against Orgyen Trinely. And Thaye Dorje is displaying more and more signs and qualities of the previous Karmapa while Orgyen Trinley has been very low key and quiet.

Hopefully, Thaye Dorje's embrace of Dorje Shugden will hasten the unbanning of our protector and also show definite proof to the other lineages that Dorje Shugden is not harmful. His endorsement is very powerful indeed. Perhaps we will have a Kagyu Dorje Shugden sadhana/lineage? That is exciting indeed!

Zach

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Re: HH 17th Gyalwang Karmapa Thaye Dorje supports Dorje Shugden!
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2012, 01:58:40 PM »
The article previously published about His Holiness the 17th Karmapa Trinley Thaye Dorje contained factual inaccuracies and thus had to be removed. We sincerely regret the inconvenience caused to all our readers and faithful devotees of HH across the world.

WisdomBeing

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Re: HH 17th Gyalwang Karmapa Thaye Dorje supports Dorje Shugden!
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2012, 10:38:28 AM »
Hi Zach

I was kind of expecting that with the disclaimer they initially put on the article. I am curious why DID they  post it up if there was doubt about the authenticity of the source though. Are they so desperate for news about Dorje Shugden? They could easily get the latest news about DS from this website LOL

As Ensapa said, the 16th Karmapa was known to be supportive of Dorje Shugden. On the thread http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=819.0, Dharma Defender said:
Quote
While the Sixteenth Karmapa (the previous Karmapa) was on a pilgrimage in Nepal he stopped at Urgyen Rinpoche’s new monastery. At that time the Nepalese king and queen were there and came out to greet him with a scarf. When he went into the monastery there was a statue of Guru Dragpo with Dharmapala Shugden being pressed down under the statue’s feet. The Karmapa stood in the presence of the statue for awhile, then pointed his finger at it and asked “who is the person that said to build this statue?  This isn’t Nyingma nor Sakya, certainly not Gelug and not Kagyu either. I didn’t say to build it, this is not one of the deities you can’t rely on (meaning you can rely on Dorje Shugden). Although the time is a little early in the future you will definitely need to rely on this deity.” (Dorje Shugden) Out of all the abbots and masters present not one came forward to answer. The Karmapa said “remove this now.” Immediately a person with an axe and shovel came and had to remove it. Many lamas present at that time definitely remember, a seventy five year old man from Chamdo called Samcho witnessed this event.


I love this story as it shows the non-sectarian nature of the 16th Karmapa and I especially love his prophecy that in time, we will need to rely on Dorje Shugden!
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

michaela

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Re: HH 17th Gyalwang Karmapa Thaye Dorje supports Dorje Shugden!
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2012, 12:53:26 PM »

Dalai Lama had decreed a ban on the worship of Dorje Shugden amongst his Tibetan followers on 7 March, 1996. Shamarpa, a supporter of religious freedom had opposed HH the Dalai Lama on the issue and he reiterated the stance by saying “Dharma is about thinking for yourself. It is not about automatically following a teacher in all things, no matter how respected that teacher may be. More than anyone else, Buddhist should respect other people’s rights – their human rights and their religious freedom. I understand when Tibetans feel this way; their livelihood may depend on being on good terms with the Tibetan exile administration in India. Maybe they would lose their job if they questioned the Dalai Lama’s right to choose the Karmapa.”

And which deity to worship or not, this is an unhealthy development in Buddhism, do you endorse the views of your mentor on this issue? The Karmapa smiled in the affirmative.



(iSikkim.com has not been able to confirm the above story from other sources. iSikkim.com bears no responsibility about the truth of the above story.)


I love what he said that "“Dharma is about thinking for yourself. It is not about automatically following a teacher in all things, no matter how respected that teacher may be. More than anyone else, Buddhist should respect other people’s rights"  It resonates well with me  ;D

Ensapa

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Re: HH 17th Gyalwang Karmapa Thaye Dorje supports Dorje Shugden!
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2013, 07:05:45 AM »
Hi Zach

I was kind of expecting that with the disclaimer they initially put on the article. I am curious why DID they  post it up if there was doubt about the authenticity of the source though. Are they so desperate for news about Dorje Shugden? They could easily get the latest news about DS from this website LOL

As Ensapa said, the 16th Karmapa was known to be supportive of Dorje Shugden. On the thread http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=819.0, Dharma Defender said:
Quote
While the Sixteenth Karmapa (the previous Karmapa) was on a pilgrimage in Nepal he stopped at Urgyen Rinpoche’s new monastery. At that time the Nepalese king and queen were there and came out to greet him with a scarf. When he went into the monastery there was a statue of Guru Dragpo with Dharmapala Shugden being pressed down under the statue’s feet. The Karmapa stood in the presence of the statue for awhile, then pointed his finger at it and asked “who is the person that said to build this statue?  This isn’t Nyingma nor Sakya, certainly not Gelug and not Kagyu either. I didn’t say to build it, this is not one of the deities you can’t rely on (meaning you can rely on Dorje Shugden). Although the time is a little early in the future you will definitely need to rely on this deity.” (Dorje Shugden) Out of all the abbots and masters present not one came forward to answer. The Karmapa said “remove this now.” Immediately a person with an axe and shovel came and had to remove it. Many lamas present at that time definitely remember, a seventy five year old man from Chamdo called Samcho witnessed this event.


I love this story as it shows the non-sectarian nature of the 16th Karmapa and I especially love his prophecy that in time, we will need to rely on Dorje Shugden!


Personally, I would say that the Karmapa that supports Dorje Shugden is the real karmapa, and then the karma kagyus can put an end to their whole who is the real karmapa issue. The 16th Karmapa supports Dorje Shugden and is very close to Trijang Rinpoche so it is only natural if the 17th one does the same as well. Appealing to the Dalai Lama and betraying one's own cause and true nature would not be something that a high lama would do. I hope that Thaye Dorje would make more effort to associate himself with Trijang Rinpoche despite the Dorje Shugden controversy because it will be very sad if their relationship that has been very close for so many lifetimes be sabotaged by this ban.

Rinchen

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Re: HH 17th Gyalwang Karmapa Thaye Dorje supports Dorje Shugden!
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2013, 11:53:06 AM »
Personally, I would say that the Karmapa that supports Dorje Shugden is the real karmapa, and then the karma kagyus can put an end to their whole who is the real karmapa issue. The 16th Karmapa supports Dorje Shugden and is very close to Trijang Rinpoche so it is only natural if the 17th one does the same as well. Appealing to the Dalai Lama and betraying one's own cause and true nature would not be something that a high lama would do. I hope that Thaye Dorje would make more effort to associate himself with Trijang Rinpoche despite the Dorje Shugden controversy because it will be very sad if their relationship that has been very close for so many lifetimes be sabotaged by this ban.

Totally agree with what you said. It is factual that the 16th Karmapa supports Dorje Shugden based on what is being written above by Wisdom Being. Hence, it would only be logical if the current Karmapa too supports Dorje Shudgen. Through the prophecy we could tell that definitely there would be a day where the ban is lifted and hence benefitting all of us. I am just so excited for that day to come.

vajrastorm

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Re: HH 17th Gyalwang Karmapa Thaye Dorje supports Dorje Shugden!
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2013, 09:38:54 AM »
Whether this article's authenticity is or isn't substantiated, I like the words of Thaye Dorje in regard to the youth of today. I like his polite way of showing his disagreement with HH Dalai Lama's involvement in the controversy over who is the genuine Karmapa. i like his supporting the practice of Dorje Shugden on grounds of religious freedom.

Here are the words in his message re youth of today: "The youth must realize and understand the importance of true wisdom and compassion, only then can they understand the meaning of Dharma".
His very reasonable words, in support of the worship of Shugden and in direct opposition to the ban,are the following: "Dharma is about thinking for yourself. It is not about following a teacher in all things., no matter how respected that teacher may be".   

As for the Dalai Lama overstepping his authority in the Rumtek controversy, and the Chief Minister of Sikkim interfering in religious matters, he responds with merely saying that politics came into the controversy. (THough he did add that the act of interference  was an act of breaching trust and creating factionalism).

Last but not least, i fail to understand why the "letter of prediction", supposedly left by the 16th Karmapa, was not allowed to be examined by a forensic expert, thus leaving the issue of the more than a decade long controversy of the rightful 17th Karmapa unresolved.

                 


samayakeeper

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Re: HH 17th Gyalwang Karmapa Thaye Dorje supports Dorje Shugden!
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2013, 10:52:57 AM »
It was a good mistake though. Maybe the divine working of Dorje Shugden?

A friend of mine was on a pilgrimage in Nepal a few years ago and he saw the statue at Asura Cave situated at the village of Pharping.



Hi Zach

I was kind of expecting that with the disclaimer they initially put on the article. I am curious why DID they  post it up if there was doubt about the authenticity of the source though. Are they so desperate for news about Dorje Shugden? They could easily get the latest news about DS from this website LOL

As Ensapa said, the 16th Karmapa was known to be supportive of Dorje Shugden. On the thread http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=819.0, Dharma Defender said:
Quote
While the Sixteenth Karmapa (the previous Karmapa) was on a pilgrimage in Nepal he stopped at Urgyen Rinpoche’s new monastery. At that time the Nepalese king and queen were there and came out to greet him with a scarf. When he went into the monastery there was a statue of Guru Dragpo with Dharmapala Shugden being pressed down under the statue’s feet. The Karmapa stood in the presence of the statue for awhile, then pointed his finger at it and asked “who is the person that said to build this statue?  This isn’t Nyingma nor Sakya, certainly not Gelug and not Kagyu either. I didn’t say to build it, this is not one of the deities you can’t rely on (meaning you can rely on Dorje Shugden). Although the time is a little early in the future you will definitely need to rely on this deity.” (Dorje Shugden) Out of all the abbots and masters present not one came forward to answer. The Karmapa said “remove this now.” Immediately a person with an axe and shovel came and had to remove it. Many lamas present at that time definitely remember, a seventy five year old man from Chamdo called Samcho witnessed this event.


I love this story as it shows the non-sectarian nature of the 16th Karmapa and I especially love his prophecy that in time, we will need to rely on Dorje Shugden!

Big Uncle

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Re: HH 17th Gyalwang Karmapa Thaye Dorje supports Dorje Shugden!
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2013, 03:50:42 PM »
I believe that the Karmapa was speaking on the principle behind the ban on Dorje Shugden. By the way, I do think that this is not a factual inaccuracy but is just a coverup to avoid further backlash by the larger Tibetan Buddhist community regarding this matter. Anyway, I think the Karmapa is speaking with regards to the unfair persecution and segregation that is condone through such a ban. The very act is unbuddhist and the Dalai Lama has no right no do this and the Karmapa is a few who dare to speak up where others dare not or would not in the name of politics. I don't think the Karmapa actually supports Dorje Shugden as it does not really belong to his lineage but he sees the hypocrisy surrounding the nature of the ban, especially with the people implementing it. I do hope what the previous Karmapa had said about Dorje Shugden would come to pass quickly.

Blueupali

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Re: HH 17th Gyalwang Karmapa Thaye Dorje supports Dorje Shugden!
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2013, 08:22:53 PM »
I don't think this article sounds verbatim like how the Karmapa (Thaye Dorje) actually talks; he is very gentle and soft spoken, generally.  Also, how do you "smile in the affirmative?"
  That said, I have always noticed that Karmapa and Shamar Rinpoche are non-sectarian.

DharmaSpace

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Re: HH 17th Gyalwang Karmapa Thaye Dorje supports Dorje Shugden!
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2013, 01:25:23 AM »
Quote
Dalai Lama had decreed a ban on the worship of Dorje Shugden amongst his Tibetan followers on 7 March, 1996. Shamarpa, a supporter of religious freedom had opposed HH the Dalai Lama on the issue and he reiterated the stance by saying “Dharma is about thinking for yourself. It is not about automatically following a teacher in all things, no matter how respected that teacher may be. More than anyone else, Buddhist should respect other people’s rights – their human rights and their religious freedom. I understand when Tibetans feel this way; their livelihood may depend on being on good terms with the Tibetan exile administration in India. Maybe they would lose their job if they questioned the Dalai Lama’s right to choose the Karmapa.”

Buddhism is not about questioning non stop, it is about questioning so one can get the clarity of mind and thought.   When one gets their doubt clarified and removed understanding, faith and realisation can arise within their minds. I thank the Karmapa for once again reminding his followers and all Buddhists that the job of all practitioners to learn and study the truth and come to their own conclusions about what is the truth.