what kind of rebirth does one get from grey karma?

[hope rainbow]

Sometimes I hear people telling me: "but I do nothing wrong, I have killed no one, I am faithful to my wife, I don't cheat taxes, I don't get angry...". And yet, some of the same people also do not engage in any activity to create white karma neither.

Their karma is grey, not creating white karma, not creating black karma.
Grey karma.

What kind of rebirth does one get from grey karma?

[Aurore]

Gray karma leads to a rebirth in any of the six realms because one who does nothing does nothing to purify our negative karma. To purely exist as a human is due to our previous life's negative karma such as our selfishness, attachment, chasing after wealth, laziness to think beyond benefitting others but ourselves.

So even if one does not commit anything "wrong", pure attachments to the self keeps us remaining in samsara.

[KhedrubGyatso]

As in our daily prayers  - it is by the virtue of giving and other perfections that we can take rebirth in the human realm.

However, if we don't do any virtues in this human life; it's just a matter of time that the results of our black karma will ripen without the balancing input of white karma.

Only human have the great opportunity to practice virtues. To not do any virtuous deeds is as good as throwing away a gold nugget !

Grey karma is just a nice way of labelling the negative karma of not taking responsibility or not caring. It is the manifestation of our selfish mind . Hitler could kill millions of Jews because the rest of the world allowed him to do so by not doing anything about the situation.

Personally, I think if one claims he/she has not done any non virtues but by NOT doing anything good for others[/b] at all will result in rebirth in any of the 3 lower realms.

[kurava]

While the practice of the paramitas will lead us to human rebirth and beyond, the main cause of human rebirth is moral discipline.if we did not practice giving, even if we are born human , we will be poor as a church mouse or never be able to hold on to any wealth even when we have it.
Grey karma means we did not accumulate merit to top up whatever we had used up. In addition it means we also never do any purification of old karma which will lead us to continue our bad ways and more demerits.
hence although the speed of being reborn in the lower realms may be slower and the depths of hell less deep, compared to those with black karma nevertheless we go down just them.

[hope rainbow]

As in our daily prayers  - it is by the virtue of giving and other perfections that we can take rebirth in the human realm.

However, if we don't do any virtues in this human life; it's just a matter of time that the results of our black karma will ripen without the balancing input of white karma.

Only human have the great opportunity to practice virtues. To not do any virtuous deeds is as good as throwing away a gold nugget !

Grey karma is just a nice way of labelling the negative karma of not taking responsibility or not caring. It is the manifestation of our selfish mind . Hitler could kill millions of Jews because the rest of the world allowed him to do so by not doing anything about the situation.

Personally, I think if one claims he/she has not done any non virtues but by NOT doing anything good for others[/b] at all will result in rebirth in any of the 3 lower realms.

Thank you for sharing KG.

I read you, however, I understand that by following the refuge vows, one ensures a human rebirth.
Correct?

And yet, the refuge vows make us refrain from non virtuous actions,
they are not vows that makes us engage in virtuous actions creating white karma...

We don't do evil, yet we don't do virtuous.
Thus it is grey karma that is created created, right?

Can you help me understand this point?

[Amitabha]

if you would to aware of 6th chan patriarch huineng, he was living together with the bandit to optimise towards the fairly supreme enlightenment. he could have travel to the monastery instead, but did not. refuge vow is enlightenment. one ought to realize enlightenment and harness it to a high level. as for grey karma mentioned above, this the category of ignornce beings who does not know innate refuge vow and will follow the last breath. basically, if you cause harm to livimg beings like non vegetarianism is in itself not a wise karmic. it depends on their last breath, usually there will be karmic debtors to collect debt in its last breath as the mind in last breath is usually filmsy losting their awareness. hope its helpful. amitabha

[pgdharma]

How fortunate to be born as a human in a conducive environment where dharma can be heard. Yet to be born as a human and not doing anything to collect merits for future lives is a waste of this precious human body.

In previous lives, we collect positive and negative karma. If  we do nothing to purify our previous negative karma in this live and accumulate merits to replenish what we have used up to take this human rebirth to learn the dharma  than our negative karma will be more than our positive karma which will keep accumulating and bring us down to the three lower realms.

By not doing anything good for others due to our laziness, ego, attachment, selfishness, laid back attitude is  negative karma so this will bring us down to the three lower realms.

[kurava]

Yes HR , as KG said if we don't do non virtues following the refuge vows  it will be a matter of time that our positive karma be all used up and results of  the negative actions done in previous life times ripen. So accumulating grey karma alone in this life time is NOT a guarantee that one will not fall into any one of the 3 lower realms in the next life !

[DSFriend]

Sometimes I hear people telling me: "but I do nothing wrong, I have killed no one, I am faithful to my wife, I don't cheat taxes, I don't get angry...". And yet, some of the same people also do not engage in any activity to create white karma neither.

Their karma is grey, not creating white karma, not creating black karma.
Grey karma.

What kind of rebirth does one get from grey karma?

Well, if any one truly does what is stated in the above (ie., do nothing wrong, etc etc...  don't get angry) this person would have been quite highly evolved and attained. If this person were to be able to do this, logically this person would have some realization on karma thus, have stopped creating negative karma.

Unfortunately, most of us "think" we are doing no wrong, etc.. because the society's standard where we grew up in is totally off! The best measuring tool is to use the Lamrim or if one is fortunate to be close to a qualified Guru, then the blessings will be tremendous in mirroring back on how we are doing.

[triesa]

Yes HR , as KG said if we don't do non virtues following the refuge vows  it will be a matter of time that our positive karma be all used up and results of  the negative actions done in previous life times ripen. So accumulating grey karma alone in this life time is NOT a guarantee that one will not fall into any one of the 3 lower realms in the next life !

You are right Kurava. I label "Grey Karma" as neutral karma. When we engage in activities that only generate grey karma, we are not adding "bonus points" to our merit bank, while everyday we live, we uses up the "bonus points" in our merit bank, as a result, these bonus points are fastly depleting.

Then there will come a situation that the negative karma , I label it as " interests due"  will catch up on us. Then it is pay back time!

The function of negative karma is to bring us down....to the 3 lower realms.

So to answer the question, if we only create grey karma during our life, we will be shooting down to the 3 lower realms sooner or later.

[Positive Change]

Yes HR , as KG said if we don't do non virtues following the refuge vows  it will be a matter of time that our positive karma be all used up and results of  the negative actions done in previous life times ripen. So accumulating grey karma alone in this life time is NOT a guarantee that one will not fall into any one of the 3 lower realms in the next life !

You are right Kurava. I label "Grey Karma" as neutral karma. When we engage in activities that only generate grey karma, we are not adding "bonus points" to our merit bank, while everyday we live, we uses up the "bonus points" in our merit bank, as a result, these bonus points are fastly depleting.

Then there will come a situation that the negative karma , I label it as " interests due"  will catch up on us. Then it is pay back time!

The function of negative karma is to bring us down....to the 3 lower realms.

So to answer the question, if we only create grey karma during our life, we will be shooting down to the 3 lower realms sooner or later.

Hmmm... interesting thread. One could summarize the following then:

White Karma = Fixed Deposit
Black Karma = Overdraft
Grey Karma = Keeping cash in our pillows (we will run out sooner or later)

I do like the analogy of Karma being like a bank account. Whereby we will inevitably use it up unless we continue to "deposit" (white karma)... we do not ever want our bank account to be overdrawn (black karma ripening). And the thing is, karma exist whether we believe it so, if you ask me, lets play it safe and keep depositing!

[Tammy]

I like the analogy of our karma as a Bank Account and would like to take it a step further:

At birth - was are carrying our karma with us like a Balance Sheet (an accounting term)

Balance Sheet contain the following (in a simplified form):

(A) Long Term Assets - White karma that would ripen beyond this life time
(B) Current Assets - White karma that would ripen in this life time

(C) Long Term Liabilities - Black karma that would ripen beyond this life time
(D) Current Liabilities - Black karma that would ripen in this life time

Each of us were born with a NET balance of either black karma (A+B) < (C+D) or
white karma (A+B)>(C+D)

If we have a huge amount of B, we will have a very comfortable life - but the catch is this -> it will be depleted, by enjoying the result of white karma, we also using it like money in a bank !!! Hence if we don't accumulate white karma in this life time (even though we do not collect Black karma), the white karma will eventually be depleted and very soon, we will face rebirths with net black karma and suffering with begin, let alone progressing in spiritual path.

Conclusion - do good deeds, practice giving and generosity, collect white karma while we can, in all our lives from now on and at the same time avoid bad deeds, engage in dharma work and prayers to purify accumulated black karma - work on our karma balance sheet!!

I hope i did not confuse anyone :-p

[Positive Change]

I like the analogy of our karma as a Bank Account and would like to take it a step further:

At birth - was are carrying our karma with us like a Balance Sheet (an accounting term)

Balance Sheet contain the following (in a simplified form):

(A) Long Term Assets - White karma that would ripen beyond this life time
(B) Current Assets - White karma that would ripen in this life time

(C) Long Term Liabilities - Black karma that would ripen beyond this life time
(D) Current Liabilities - Black karma that would ripen in this life time

Each of us were born with a NET balance of either black karma (A+B) < (C+D) or
white karma (A+B)>(C+D)

If we have a huge amount of B, we will have a very comfortable life - but the catch is this -> it will be depleted, by enjoying the result of white karma, we also using it like money in a bank !!! Hence if we don't accumulate white karma in this life time (even though we do not collect Black karma), the white karma will eventually be depleted and very soon, we will face rebirths with net black karma and suffering with begin, let alone progressing in spiritual path.

Conclusion - do good deeds, practice giving and generosity, collect white karma while we can, in all our lives from now on and at the same time avoid bad deeds, engage in dharma work and prayers to purify accumulated black karma - work on our karma balance sheet!!

I hope i did not confuse anyone :-p

I love how you did indeed take it a notch better... I may use this if I may to explain Karma to some of my non-believing friends and relatives... Life is about a balance, why should Karma be any different!

So in your opinion what are the White Karma that ends up being Long Term Assets and Current Assets? And same goes for Black Karma. What are the causes or triggers that makes them open in this life or another and is there a way of "preventing" Black Karma from ripening?

[hope rainbow]

I like the analogy of our karma as a Bank Account and would like to take it a step further:

At birth - was are carrying our karma with us like a Balance Sheet (an accounting term)

Balance Sheet contain the following (in a simplified form):

(A) Long Term Assets - White karma that would ripen beyond this life time
(B) Current Assets - White karma that would ripen in this life time

(C) Long Term Liabilities - Black karma that would ripen beyond this life time
(D) Current Liabilities - Black karma that would ripen in this life time

Each of us were born with a NET balance of either black karma (A+B) < (C+D) or
white karma (A+B)>(C+D)

If we have a huge amount of B, we will have a very comfortable life - but the catch is this -> it will be depleted, by enjoying the result of white karma, we also using it like money in a bank !!! Hence if we don't accumulate white karma in this life time (even though we do not collect Black karma), the white karma will eventually be depleted and very soon, we will face rebirths with net black karma and suffering with begin, let alone progressing in spiritual path.

Conclusion - do good deeds, practice giving and generosity, collect white karma while we can, in all our lives from now on and at the same time avoid bad deeds, engage in dharma work and prayers to purify accumulated black karma - work on our karma balance sheet!!

I hope i did not confuse anyone :-p

I love how you did indeed take it a notch better... I may use this if I may to explain Karma to some of my non-believing friends and relatives... Life is about a balance, why should Karma be any different!

So in your opinion what are the White Karma that ends up being Long Term Assets and Current Assets? And same goes for Black Karma. What are the causes or triggers that makes them open in this life or another and is there a way of "preventing" Black Karma from ripening?

Actually, there is no way to avoid black karma (or any karma) from ripening.
The good news is this though: karma is impermanent, it changes and so we can modify the effect of black karma even if we can't avoid it.
In the same logic, we can "prevent" black karma from ripening within circumstances that are not beneficial for our spiritual practice and create conditions for the karma to ripen in conditions that are beneficial for our practice.

Often I have seen that people doing retreat see a "worsening" of their situation, "bad things" happen, obstacles arise. To surmount obstacles during a retreat is purifying the black karma and turning it into experiences that benefit our spiritual journey.

When black karma opens when we are not in retreat or not even within a spiritual journey, it's basically unpleasant and that's it... That's it...

[kurava]

Yes, agree with HR.

With spiritual training, we change our views and thereby changing the experience of black karma. The examples of monks with their spirits held high no matter what tortures they endured, ordinary people born with severe disability but excelled against all odds and become a shinning beacon to many, etc. Karma is a very dynamic force, there are so many factors and conditions involved that only an enlightened mind can see clearly and unmistakenly the karma of an individual at a particular instance.

During one of the teachings by my Guru, he said something that changes my view of what is good and bad karma.

He said "what we ordinary folks consider as BAD karma is actually our good karma ripening " because most often we seek spirituality when we meet the result of our negative karma. Through spiritual training we gain knowledge on the right causes for true happiness. Thus "bad" karma turns out to be good one.
On the other hand , some one born with a silver spoon who from a worldly perception is enjoying the fruit of his good karma ; if he does not use his good condition to benefit others will most certainly exhaust all his good karma and this will be the condition for him to open up his bad karma potentiality.

To sum up, there is fixed "bad" or "good" karmas. It  depends on how we use our conditions to improve , develop and explore our potentiality to its fullest.