what kind of rebirth does one get from grey karma?

[KhedrubGyatso]

I read you, however, I understand that by following the refuge vows, one ensures a human rebirth.
Correct?

And yet, the refuge vows make us refrain from non virtuous actions,
they are not vows that makes us engage in virtuous actions creating white karma...

We don't do evil, yet we don't do virtuous.
Thus it is grey karma that is created created, right?

Can you help me understand this point? ( from HR )

Simply taking refuge and following the vows will only protect us from lower realm rebirths for a few lifetimes. It is not a guarantee.
The real protection comes from practicing moral discipline understanding the laws of karma after taking refuge. Why? , Without deep conviction in karma , we will continue to break our vows even if we have them, we will not be able to generate correct motivations to fully potentialize whatever positive actions we are doing. Observing the laws of our country does not necessarily make one a moral person because it is not coming from one's own wisdom about the faults of negative behaviour but rather from the fear of punishment.
HR, your understanding of grey karma here is pretty sound ! Grey of neutral karma can also be actions like coughing , sneezing, breathing which have no consequences as they are involuntary actions. Actions which are very mild can also be placed under the grey karma category, whether they are positive or negative.They are too weak to produce any results - like diluted medicine.

[Positive Change]

Actually, there is no way to avoid black karma (or any karma) from ripening.
The good news is this though: karma is impermanent, it changes and so we can modify the effect of black karma even if we can't avoid it.
In the same logic, we can "prevent" black karma from ripening within circumstances that are not beneficial for our spiritual practice and create conditions for the karma to ripen in conditions that are beneficial for our practice.

Often I have seen that people doing retreat see a "worsening" of their situation, "bad things" happen, obstacles arise. To surmount obstacles during a retreat is purifying the black karma and turning it into experiences that benefit our spiritual journey.

When black karma opens when we are not in retreat or not even within a spiritual journey, it's basically unpleasant and that's it... That's it...

Veru true HR... It reminds me of a teaching by my Lama who describes Black Karma (Negative Karma) and how to "avoid" it in the following way:

Negative Karma will ripen and is inevitable! This we have to face. However it does not mean we cannot "avoid" it. Take for example a village in the valley of the mountains. There is a river that runs right through the village providing it the sustenance it needs, however this very river will also bring disaster (flooding) in the event of heavy snow or downpour in the mountains as the banks will surely overflow and a flood will ensue. This is inevitable and many people will suffer.

How do we stop this? We cannot stop the heavy deluge that will come down on the mountains but we can certainly divert the river.  At this point my Lama draws the village the the foothills of the valley and a river that runs through it. Then my Lama proceeds to draw two lines on either side of the river at the start of the village indicating the trenches one could create to lessen the force of the river and also redirect it somewhat when the inevitable comes. (diagram shown below)

This clearly indicates we cannot stop the karma from ripening but we can take measures to lessen the impact by "creating" circumstances that "cushions" the effects of the negative karma. It still happens with the intensity that is has but the results are lesser when we are prepared!

[DSFriend]

Negative Karma will ripen and is inevitable! This we have to face. However it does not mean we cannot "avoid" it. Take for example a village in the valley of the mountains. There is a river that runs right through the village providing it the sustenance it needs, however this very river will also bring disaster (flooding) in the event of heavy snow or downpour in the mountains as the banks will surely overflow and a flood will ensue. This is inevitable and many people will suffer.

How do we stop this? We cannot stop the heavy deluge that will come down on the mountains but we can certainly divert the river.  At this point my Lama draws the village the the foothills of the valley and a river that runs through it. Then my Lama proceeds to draw two lines on either side of the river at the start of the village indicating the trenches one could create to lessen the force of the river and also redirect it somewhat when the inevitable comes. (diagram shown below)

Dear Positive Change
I appreciate the illustration of the river. How skillful. You are very fortunate to have such a lama to teach you.

[hope rainbow]

During one of the teachings by my Guru, he said something that changes my view of what is good and bad karma.

He said "what we ordinary folks consider as BAD karma is actually our good karma ripening " because most often we seek spirituality when we meet the result of our negative karma. Through spiritual training we gain knowledge on the right causes for true happiness. Thus "bad" karma turns out to be good one.
On the other hand , some one born with a silver spoon who from a worldly perception is enjoying the fruit of his good karma ; if he does not use his good condition to benefit others will most certainly exhaust all his good karma and this will be the condition for him to open up his bad karma potentiality.

Thanks Kurava,

On the same line of thoughts, this is what my Teacher told me:

"you were born in a rich country, in a rich family, you endured no hardship, you got all the things you needed and all the things you wanted, you have had heating when it was cold, you have had air-conditioning when it was hot, never did a meal not manifest for you, at least three times a day, you had a comfortable bed and your own bedroom, you had a doctor, 2 doctors, 3 specialists whenever you fell ill, you had education, you had university, you had the pubs and the parties, you had the girls, you had the social friends, you have money easily, you had insurances for everything, you were born in hell because none of this made you a better person."

So what is positive and negative karma indeed?
Whether we impute the karmic results to be at the service of worldly pursuits or at the service of spirituality, the "definition" changes.

[Positive Change]

During one of the teachings by my Guru, he said something that changes my view of what is good and bad karma.

He said "what we ordinary folks consider as BAD karma is actually our good karma ripening " because most often we seek spirituality when we meet the result of our negative karma. Through spiritual training we gain knowledge on the right causes for true happiness. Thus "bad" karma turns out to be good one.
On the other hand , some one born with a silver spoon who from a worldly perception is enjoying the fruit of his good karma ; if he does not use his good condition to benefit others will most certainly exhaust all his good karma and this will be the condition for him to open up his bad karma potentiality.

Thanks Kurava,

On the same line of thoughts, this is what my Teacher told me:

"you were born in a rich country, in a rich family, you endured no hardship, you got all the things you needed and all the things you wanted, you have had heating when it was cold, you have had air-conditioning when it was hot, never did a meal not manifest for you, at least three times a day, you had a comfortable bed and your own bedroom, you had a doctor, 2 doctors, 3 specialists whenever you fell ill, you had education, you had university, you had the pubs and the parties, you had the girls, you had the social friends, you have money easily, you had insurances for everything, you were born in hell because none of this made you a better person."

So what is positive and negative karma indeed?
Whether we impute the karmic results to be at the service of worldly pursuits or at the service of spirituality, the "definition" changes.

How true! It clearly illustrates the point of one's perception based only from one's own perspective. And in line with what has been said above, poverty in a sense may not be so bad after all. Is it really suffering? We who are privileged may find it to be suffering but for those who have a roof over their heads (whether or not it is shack) and ample food, they may not need the so called "comforts" of modern society.

We have perhaps created our own hell... thus we are deemed to be in the degenerate time! However it does not mean being rich is bad altogether either. It could be the result of positive karma if the wealth leads us to a betterment of our spiritual goals and life in general. Using the wealth as a tool to help the Dharma. Then that is truly positive karma ripening as it will propel us further in merit making.

Whatever my hell is, I must have done something right in my previous lives to be in an opportune condition to practice and have a Guru.

[Dondrup Shugden]

Logically there is no grey karma. Positive actions create white karma and at the same time suppress the ripening of negative karma.

Negative actions create new negative karma or enhances negative karma and suppresses the opening of positive karma.

So doing nothing with this life only means, we are self absorbed and will sit around protecting our self creating indifference, don't care attitude and not lifting our hands to either help ourselves and others.

Would such a situation create duress to people around us and we become energy sucking beings who will take from everyone and every space.  Even breathing the air, though free is a valuable commodity for survival of the sentient beings on this earth, are we not depleting what can be better used by another person who will go out to help others to be better off.

With the above thoughts, it is my point of view that grey karma equates negative karma.  Sorry to say!!!!

[fruven]

Logically there is no grey karma. Positive actions create white karma and at the same time suppress the ripening of negative karma.

Negative actions create new negative karma or enhances negative karma and suppresses the opening of positive karma.

So doing nothing with this life only means, we are self absorbed and will sit around protecting our self creating indifference, don't care attitude and not lifting our hands to either help ourselves and others.

Would such a situation create duress to people around us and we become energy sucking beings who will take from everyone and every space.  Even breathing the air, though free is a valuable commodity for survival of the sentient beings on this earth, are we not depleting what can be better used by another person who will go out to help others to be better off.

With the above thoughts, it is my point of view that grey karma equates negative karma.  Sorry to say!!!!

I agreed with your points. We may not harm other people directly but how we use our lives definitely affect others. As an example when we use air conditioning we are contributing to the demand of more energy. Petrol and coal are burned as a result of this demand contributing to global warming. The warm weather is affecting quality of life of other sentient beings. Isn't this causing suffering to others?

As long as we live in samsara and just simply living we are continually affecting others' life unknowingly. Therefore actions that seems neutral could be negative karma.