Untimely Death of Sonam Yeshe Wangpo (1556-1593)

[michaela]

Dear Forum Reader

In Music Delighting, http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=52/#1, one of DS incarnation is Sonam Yeshe Wangpo.  He passed away at 37 year old.  Seems to be very young compared to his other incarnations.  I have been thinking about this.

My precious Lama once said that when a Lama does not have a conducive condition to practice Dharma and do what he has to do, he may die young to take another rebirth in a more conducive condition because he has control over this.

But, Sonam Yeshe Wangpo seemed to have all the conducive conditions required.  Why did he choose to die young while he can benefit so many in that life?

My initial thought go to the possibilities that there are other places that need him more.  But this argument quickly got refuted by myself because an enlightened being can take rebirth simultaneously at the same time.

Anyone can offer an explanation about this?

[Ensapa]

when the students do not provide the conducive conditions for the lama to remain or when they do not have enough merits for the lama to remain, the lama will pass away earlier so that he does not waste his time on students with no results. This seems to be the case.

Also, for many students, the start of their practice only begins when the lama passes away, where they REALLY learn to be independent in their practice instead of standing still and waiting for prompting from their lama. In this cases, the lama will give very intense teachings and then pass away when all has been taught to give room for the students to be independent.

That is why it is important that we show initiative to our lama to show him we are capable of being independent.

[michaela]

Ensapa

If you're claiming that the students' of Sonam Yeshe Wangpo are not following through with the practice, do you have any reference to this, or only your pure speculation?

[Ensapa]

Ensapa

If you're claiming that the students' of Sonam Yeshe Wangpo are not following through with the practice, do you have any reference to this, or only your pure speculation?

No I am not claiming that at all. I am just listing down the possibilities. It is impossible for us to know what really happened, as most be-bums (hagiographies) usually gloss over the death of high lamas. For example, in the case of the Dalai Lamas, it was simply written that they decided to pass away at the age of 18, 21 etc. Which does not make sense and now many scholars are speculating that they might have been murdered or poisoned.

Other possibilities are from observations of very high lamas. most of them do not live past the age of 50, apparently as my lama has shared. Sometimes the Lama may give extraordinary teachings to an area that would normally not be receptive to the Dharma and "burn out" faster due to absorbing the negative karma of the students. An example of this is Chongyam Trungpa. He died relatively young at 47.

[michaela]

So it is still left unanswered.  The particular reasons that made this high Lama to die at a relatively young age.

[michaela]

Sonam Yeshe Wangpo was not the only incarnation who died young.  Another DS incarnation of Ngawang Sonam Geleg Pelzang also passed away at a very young age, 22 years old.

The conditions accompanying these high Lamas seems to be condusive to uphold the teaching.  So, it raised more curiosity why did they chose to die young.

[jeremyg]

Even though as you say Michaela that the conditions were right to uphold the teachings doesn't necessarily mean that the students have enough merits to receive the teachings.

For a high lama to remain, especially an emanation of Dorje Shugden, the students and everyone around that emanation need extremely high merits, just to maintain the life of such a high being. So they most likely died young because the students around did not have enough merits.

Secondly, as Ensapa pointed out, some students only really begin to practice when their lama has passed away. So therefore the lama will pass away at the exact time to benefit the students the most, even if this means passing away at a very young age. It may seem from the outside that the lama passed away at a very young age, however he would only do this because his passing at a certain time would bring the most benefit. If their coming and going in a short time brings the best to their students, that is what they will do.

I hope this clarifies your query.

[negra orquida]

totally agree with jeremyg.

Why did he choose to die young while he can benefit so many in that life?

it will definitely be very painful for the students whose Guru had died young in THAT life, but from a broader and longer term view, such timing may be the most beneficial to the most number of beings for the most number of lifetimes, since the Guru will use every opportunity to benefit as many of his students + others. 

Maybe the Guru works with whatever merit balances his students have and chooses the most suitable time (given the amount of merits available) to pass away?

[pgdharma]

"It may seem from the outside that the lama passed away at a very young age, however he would only do this because his passing at a certain time would bring the most benefit. If their coming and going in a short time brings the best to their students, that is what they will do."

If they find it more beneficial to end their life at a young age and take another rebirth then they will just go into clear light and take a new rebirth . Sometimes, high lamas manifest signs of leaving, it is like a wake up call for the students to transform, push themselves harder and put more effort in their dharma practice so that they can move on to the next level.  If their passing away brings the best to their students, they will do it.

For a high lama to remain,  the students must have tremendous merits to be near this holy being. Out of compassion, the lama or Guru, will absorb the negative karma of his students. The students need to collect merits to be near  their Guru and do long life pujas for their Guru asking him to remain with them and teach the dharma. If there is no sign of students wanting to transform it is no point for the Lama to live until a ripe old age when he can do and benefit more in a new incarnation.

It is very sad to see a Guru leaves his students but it is the students who do not create the cause for the Guru to remain with them.

[diamond girl]

Even though as you say Michaela that the conditions were right to uphold the teachings doesn't necessarily mean that the students have enough merits to receive the teachings.

For a high lama to remain, especially an emanation of Dorje Shugden, the students and everyone around that emanation need extremely high merits, just to maintain the life of such a high being. So they most likely died young because the students around did not have enough merits.

Secondly, as Ensapa pointed out, some students only really begin to practice when their lama has passed away. So therefore the lama will pass away at the exact time to benefit the students the most, even if this means passing away at a very young age. It may seem from the outside that the lama passed away at a very young age, however he would only do this because his passing at a certain time would bring the most benefit. If their coming and going in a short time brings the best to their students, that is what they will do.

I hope this clarifies your query.

Thank you Jeremyg. Your reply seems most neutral here and logical. When I read this thread, I seem to feel that we are looking for someone to blame for the early passing of a Lama. I have heard many explanations on why some high Lamas pass away at a young age. And the many reasons explained here I have heard before. I do think that it is all an accumulation of factors not necessarily one particular reason. Students having the merits, benefiting more with death, conducive environments, karma, etc - these all play a part.

At the end of it all, a Lama's goal is to spread the Dharma in whatever skillful ways the Lama knows best and also it is dependent on the era the Lama existed. The important thing is that as students do we learn from our Lama to develop the Buddha in all of us through our Mind Transformation. If we transform and develop the Buddha within, centers and teachings of many Lamas, who pass away young, will still flourish after the Lama passes.

[michaela]

Yes, I agree with all the possible reasons as to why high Lamas chose to die young:
-  The students not having enough merits
-  It is more beneficial for them to die
-  The students are not listening to their Lama, etc.

All of the above are possible reasons as to why a lama chose to die young as have been thought by my precious Lama.

However, what I am looking for with this query is the particular reasons as to why these two incarnations chose to die young.  Historical accounts about why they choose to die young.

The purpose of asking these queries in the first place is as DS practitioners, we will be challenged by the proponents of the bans and newbies - I am being a newbie DS practitioners myself.  All fronts need to be strenghten with clear answers. 

What is not clear for me at the moment is the historical circumstances that surrounded these high Lama's death.  The accounts in Music delighting focused more on their deeds, their gurus, what kind of empowerments and special qualities of these lamas.  I want to have the accounts on the stories that lead to these Lamas decided to die young. 

 

[Ensapa]

Yes, I agree with all the possible reasons as to why high Lamas chose to die young:
-  The students not having enough merits
-  It is more beneficial for them to die
-  The students are not listening to their Lama, etc.

All of the above are possible reasons as to why a lama chose to die young as have been thought by my precious Lama.

However, what I am looking for with this query is the particular reasons as to why these two incarnations chose to die young.  Historical accounts about why they choose to die young.

The purpose of asking these queries in the first place is as DS practitioners, we will be challenged by the proponents of the bans and newbies - I am being a newbie DS practitioners myself.  All fronts need to be strenghten with clear answers. 

What is not clear for me at the moment is the historical circumstances that surrounded these high Lama's death.  The accounts in Music delighting focused more on their deeds, their gurus, what kind of empowerments and special qualities of these lamas.  I want to have the accounts on the stories that lead to these Lamas decided to die young.

It will not be possible to know the exact reason as I have said earlier, Tibetan historical accounts tend to be glossed over where shameful facts are often not mentioned as if they did not happen, or was written in such a way that makes them look good. A famous example of this is Songtsen Gampo and Wencheng. Chinese sources say he regularly invaded the nearby Chinese kingdoms until the king gave her for marriage while Tibetan sources say he asked for her hand in marriage in a nice way.

The only way you would know is from a non-Tibetan record, or have clairvoyance, or maybe even find and ask the reincarnation what really transpired, as for us now, it is impossible for us to know.

If I may ask, why is it even important in the first place to know? How will it benefit you and everyone else who knows about it?

[michaela]

Firstly Ensapa, we need to know because we want to learn.  We are not the follower of blind faith.  As a newbie, I saw some inconsistencies in the stories that results in me asking questions.  Asking questions and giving logical answers are the very foundation of Buddhist teachings.  Waiving someone by saying, there is no need to know is really not in Buddhist spirit.

I don't really think that historical accounts such as those written by High Lama like Trijang Rinpoche has been exagerated or glossed over.  It should be the truth - one of the Buddhist precepts is not to lie.

These untimely death of high enlightened Lamas have occured hundreds of years ago.  If there are great benefits that resulted from this act of dying young, it should be apparent by now.

[Ensapa]

Firstly Ensapa, we need to know because we want to learn.  We are not the follower of blind faith.  As a newbie, I saw some inconsistencies in the stories that results in me asking questions.  Asking questions and giving logical answers are the very foundation of Buddhist teachings.  Waiving someone by saying, there is no need to know is really not in Buddhist spirit.

I don't really think that historical accounts such as those written by High Lama like Trijang Rinpoche has been exagerated or glossed over.  It should be the truth - one of the Buddhist precepts is not to lie.

These untimely death of high enlightened Lamas have occured hundreds of years ago.  If there are great benefits that resulted from this act of dying young, it should be apparent by now.

The fact that Trijang Rinpoche did not mention why he died young or the reason behind it shows that it is not important for us, the younger generation to know on why he died young.

Perhaps, it is a timing thing for him to incarnate on time for a different period. Maybe is the benefit of him dying young is that we get Dorje Shugden at the right time, during the 5th Dalai Lama's period and not later than that. How would he manifest properly when the 6th Dalai Lama is running around chasing girls? if Dorje Shudgen manifested during that period, who would take him seriously?